Topic: SDK R.I.P. (Read 29599 times)

mporter · « **on:** July 19, 2007, 12:32:56 »

It seems that there is not to be an SDK after all

http://www.shipsim.com/ShipSimForum/index.php/topic,1071.0.html (http://www.shipsim.com/ShipSimForum/index.php/topic,1071.0.html)

I think this is very unfortunate. I for one would very much like to add my own models to my own copy of the game first and experiment with them. Then, if they worked out OK and there was interest, I'd give them to Vstep.

I have very little interest in participating in the process as Pjotr describes it, however.

Cheers,
Michael

Eemspoort · « **Reply #1 on:** July 19, 2007, 14:12:28 »

I agree it's to bad that there isn't going to be an SDK.
However, i do apriciate the suggestion of Pjotr. After all, they don't HAVE to do it.
But they are willing to. And i think, that is a great thing!

So why not participate? To bad i don't have the time, or the knowledge to make virtual ships. I sure would participate in this!

Oh well, we will see, what happens.

mporter · « **Reply #2 on:** July 19, 2007, 14:17:09 »

Quote from: Eemspoort on July 19, 2007, 14:12:28

I agree it's to bad that there isn't going to be an SDK.
However, i do apriciate the suggestion of Pjotr. After all, they don't HAVE to do it.
But they are willing to. And i think, that is a great thing!

So why not participate? To bad i don't have the time, or the knowledge to make virtual ships. I sure would participate in this!

Oh well, we will see, what happens.

Why not is that the program as outlined raises what is meant to be a pastime into WORK, and I have plenty of that already. I could/would enjoy playing around with a model and if it worked out posting it so others could take it or leave it, with no harm done either way. But to have to produce a model that met some poorly-articulated standard and then waiting to see if it would be "acceptable" . . . well, that is what I do all day anyway, so I'm sure not going to do it in my free time!

Cheers,
Michael

mporter · « **Reply #3 on:** July 20, 2007, 01:41:34 »

And further, if you look back at the SS06 forum (the old one) the inability of users to add ships was a major issue, and an SDK was firmly promised for SS08!

JHB · « **Reply #4 on:** July 20, 2007, 08:43:23 »

Iâ€™m disappointed too. But the way they want to pay modellers does interest me; itâ€™s just how they are going to pay these? By check, PayPal, bank transfer?

If this service becomes true I hope commercial 3rd part developers like me can survive on this job, since there is a lot of work involved, since 3D models have to be designed from scratch and not by using pre-made elements. What Iâ€™m more afraid of is how we are going to be sure that the 3D model works with the game if we cannot test it in the game (called debugging)? Then VSTEP have to take the debugging part?

I do have a sort of understanding that it will take time to implement this SDK program into the game. But many of us have been waiting on this since the beginning of the SS2006 as mporter described. $:-\$

Eemspoort · « **Reply #5 on:** July 20, 2007, 10:57:13 »

I'm sorry for my quick reply here. I wasn't aware of some facts.

But after reading the above reply's, i understand the dissapointment better now. And the reasons why some people don't like to participate.

Captain Davies · « **Reply #6 on:** July 20, 2007, 12:47:09 »

This is a shame a) because I would have liked to have tried my hand at a bit of modelling and b) because I was looking forward to having a number of free downloads available. I understand why and I don't hold it against Vstep, I just find it a shame.

I'm not encouraged by the idea of the subscription service, mainly because I am apprehensive about that sort of thing. But my feeling is; wouldn't it be better to release the ships as an add on pack every few months or make the downloadable ships a pay as you go thing? People may not want every ship that comes their way.

On the matter of static objects it is indeed easier to model them than it is to model a boat. I would very much like to create a few models of my own and have them in the game, especially if it makes it easier for us to have extra enviroments in game. My question is, would it be possible for models created in SketchUp (the free version) to be used?

LucAtC · « **Reply #7 on:** July 20, 2007, 16:22:25 »

so am I also...
Of course, the subscription thing must be $:-\$ assessed, it could be not quite

interesting for everybody to pay for the x-th ferry or cruise liner, while he longs for RIBs or tugs.
That is why the proposition of Captain Davies (add on pack or downloadable)

is much more interesting, in my view too.
But the most

disappointing (for me) is that it seems there will be no editor of the dynamics of the ships! It shows clearly that it will no longer tend to become a simulation like it was intended to be. It could indeed serve as

a demo builder for companies, with a feeling

of realism due to the nice renderings and to the limitations as a game, but not for more than that.
Regards,
Luc

mporter · « **Reply #8 on:** July 20, 2007, 16:37:00 »

Quote from: LucAtC on July 20, 2007, 16:22:25

But the most disappointing (for me) is that it seems there will be no editor of the dynamics of the ships! It shows clearly that it will no longer tend to become a simulation like it was intended to be. It could indeed serve as a demo builder for companies, with a feeling of realism due to the nice renderings and to the limitations as a game, but not for more than that.
Regards,
Luc

Exactiy! The ideal for me would be an engine that allowed resistance and powering of a given ship to be plugged in as variables (along with displacement, etc). Athis would allow some degree of testing new designs, as well.

Cheers,
Michael

KPD · « **Reply #9 on:** July 20, 2007, 16:39:53 »

What a shame... I was really hoping for a Flight Sim kindda experience with this simulator as well. Seems to me that without SDK or any other guide for 3rd party designers, users will have to deal with the default ships. Subscription idea is "acceptable" only if VSTEP wants to domintae the addon designs. But on the other hand, if they let the freeware/payware designers to easily port their work into the game, there won't be any need for such "unnecessary troubles." Quality control is one of those unnecessary troubles. If I, as a user, read bad reviews about a product from other community users, I simply won't buy it. I don't need a Big Brother to tell me what's good to download and what's not.

Like i mentioned in the suggestion thread, the more freedom 3rd party designers have, the more this game will get popular. How people want to distibute their work should be none of VSTEP business and/or trouble. There are many freeware/payware groups designing scenery and aircraft for different Flight Simulator versions and to tell the truth, that's one of the main reasons FSim is one of the most, if not THE most popular simulator game out there. I would love to see that happen with ShipSim as well. But unfortunately, limiting other will not help at all.

Just the promissed Ship Editor would be a great start. A simple software to design dynamics, reskin default models and convert and port other 3D objects into the game would do MUCH MORE good to the community and VSTEP than a limited and moderated database of selected models.

Anyway... To cut the story short, as a Flight Sim enthusiast and 3rd party designer, in 14 years, I haven't seen a signle drawback in letting the community to do whatever they want with their ideas. In a way, this can be called "open source addon." Anybody who owns the original software can add/edit whatever and let the fun lasts for ever. Otherwise, I'd say a week or so is more than enough to get tired of the game!!!

Just my two Ps!

pjotr · « **Reply #10 on:** July 20, 2007, 16:46:35 »

The reason why we are not able to release a ship SDK is not because we want to keep a monopoly on new ships or anything. It is purely a technical matter. I tried to outline this pretty extensive in my posting I thought.

And I also never stated there would not be a ship dynamics editor. we may well release our internal dynamics editor in a few months, when it is stable and suitable for external use.

The subscription service will probably work like this: every month's issue can also be bought separately, as a kind of mini-add-on pack. Just like you can buy magazines in a kisok without the need for a subscription. But peope who subscribe for 12 months will get a discount, plus something extra. we will publish at least 6 months/ships ahead of time, to help people make up their mind. Subscribers will get more influence on the ships we will make in the future.

In the past we used bank wire transfers for international payments to external modelers. But we could also adopt PayPal as an alternative. We want to adopt it anyway for e-commerce transactions.

Regarding the smaller decoration objects, we will integrate these into the game and make them available for free in the next patch. We will not pay the modelers for these objects either. Only the player ships that require the massive list of manual labour items from our staff.

KPD · « **Reply #11 on:** July 20, 2007, 16:51:50 »

Fair enough. Currect me if i'm wrong, but you're asking freeware desginers for a "sponsored fee." No matter how much this fee is going to be, it is enough reason for me to stop working as a freeware designer.

Now considering that i am still botherred to release my desgin as a payware, who is going to pay me? VSTEP (a one time payment)? Or subscribers to VSTEP network are going to pay a fee on top of their subscription fees?

Either way, I'd say it's unnecessary trouble for us, 3rd party desginers, for you, original software deginers and also for the users.

Captain Davies · « **Reply #12 on:** July 20, 2007, 22:41:15 »

Quote from: pjotr on July 20, 2007, 16:46:35

Regarding the smaller decoration objects, we will integrate these into the game and make them available for free in the next patch. We will not pay the modelers for these objects either. Only the player ships that require the massive list of manual labour items from our staff.

So SketchUp, in or out?

Stuart2007 · « **Reply #13 on:** July 20, 2007, 22:44:41 »

Quote from: mporter on July 20, 2007, 01:41:34

And further, if you look back at the SS06 forum (the old one) the inability of users to add ships was a major issue, and an SDK was firmly promised for SS08!

Hi, Could you point this post out? I must admit disappointment, but if it's not possible...
Stu

LucAtC · « **Reply #14 on:** July 20, 2007, 22:52:42 »

For instance
http://www.shipsim.com/forum-en/viewtopic.php?t=143
Luc

Stuart2007 · « **Reply #15 on:** July 20, 2007, 22:57:17 »

OK Luc, thanks...

Stu

pjotr · « **Reply #16 on:** July 21, 2007, 08:38:41 »

That posting was done almost a year ago. At that time the game was in a much less complex state. Many things have happened since that time:

1. We added walkthrough functionality and bridge steering on the add-on ships. We then found that this was way more difficult and time-consuming that we expected.

2. For SS08, we add waves and realistic ship motions on waves, visible damage, and bow spray water that reacts to the ship motions in the waves. This also meant that we had to do even more manual tweaking to get it right.

In short, we need a whole army of specialist programmers to get the ships in the state that they are. Last year with SS06 this was much more simple, and it could more easily be automated.

mporter · « **Reply #17 on:** July 21, 2007, 13:33:40 »

Quote from: pjotr on July 21, 2007, 08:38:41

That posting was done almost a year ago. At that time the game was in a much less complex state. Many things have happened since that time:

1. We added walkthrough functionality and bridge steering on the add-on ships. We then found that this was way more difficult and time-consuming that we expected.

2. For SS08, we add waves and realistic ship motions on waves, visible damage, and bow spray water that reacts to the ship motions in the waves. This also meant that we had to do even more manual tweaking to get it right.

In short, we need a whole army of specialist programmers to get the ships in the state that they are. Last year with SS06 this was much more simple, and it could more easily be automated.

Well, all I can say is your priorities and mine have clearly diverged. With these choices of eye-candy over performance, Virtual Sailor looks better and better.

Captain Davies · « **Reply #18 on:** July 21, 2007, 13:45:09 »

What's performance got to do with an SDK?

mporter · « **Reply #19 on:** July 21, 2007, 14:05:36 »

Quote from: Captain Davies on July 21, 2007, 13:45:09

What's performance got to do with an SDK?

An SDK would have to allow the user to set the performance (handling) values of any new ships. Maybe not change the (unsatisfactory) old ones, but it would be better than nothing.

Sam · « **Reply #20 on:** July 22, 2007, 00:19:17 »

I am dissapointed.

Those addons will better be worth the money, I am not going to pay something like 5â‚¬ each month (if it isn't more) for 1 ship each month. $:-\$

jsyrovat · « **Reply #21 on:** July 22, 2007, 09:22:04 »

I totally agree. As I'm as well Flight Sim fan, a pilot and a hobby scale model ship builder with IT as a profession (designer/programmer/CAD/CAM) I see it exactly the same way.

With a new version of Ship Sim I expected:
1. SDK or any other possibility for community to design environments, vessels, etc.
2. it will add something more to the existing version

...but instead, Ship Sim 2008 is another game, old missions/ships are gone. I really appreciate new features, but I think lot of people expected, well something more.

Giving the community a possibility to design whatever people want or like and easily install it, it will dramatically change the game, making it much more interested - not getting bored of it after few days. And that will be even much bigger advantage for VSTEP, since this can improve their business quite well. Again, compare to Flight Sim. There is lot of add-ons, commercial or free, which are far better that the original planes or environments. Since vessels are quite complicated to design (as a scale modeler I know how much time it takes), it's impossible for a small group of people to design high quality vessels. Instead the community can do a much better job. When I saw a picture of the Pioneer pilot or Deo Volente mini heavy lift in 2006 add-on, they have hardly something more common to the real vessel (of which I have plans and made a lot of photos on board, since I'm building the scale models of them), than the name and a general siluette.

And a last point, since the game has a simulator in it's name, I expected in the future something more realistic - especially implementing at least some features from the real world - like navigation equipment, AIS, etc.. In fact, there is nothing new in the Ship Sim 2008, and I doubt if the simulator is the right word in it's name. So, another wait and see - maybe Ship Sim 2010?

pjotr · « **Reply #22 on:** July 22, 2007, 09:41:03 »

Indeed we want to tap into the knowledge, experience and skills of the people from our user community.
We do want to keep the game alive with new vessels created by external modelers.
That's why I offered to even pay people for their 3D models, if they are of sufficient quality.
The only difference with FlightSim is that we are not able to make an SDK for this.
We need to do the integration work here, using several specialists.
The first model created by a user that will be integrated in the game, in the August patch, is the Clyde Puffer of Simon Richardson.

Shipaddict · « **Reply #23 on:** July 22, 2007, 09:48:37 »

Quote from: jsyrovat on July 22, 2007, 09:22:04

Again, compare to Flight Sim.

This has been discussed before. Flightsim is 22 YEARS OLD! Shipsim is 2 YEARS OLD. Flightsim has planes in it and shipsim has ships so why is everyone comparing shipsim with a totally different game? Flightsim has been going for ages and shipsim hasn't. I read that VSTEP was only founded in 2000. Look at their sight and see all the stuff they've done. Shipsim is still in it's early days.

Everyone is complaining about something or other. Let's just enjoy what we've already got. I think that VSTEP have done a great job in the space of two years.

Cloud · « **Reply #24 on:** July 22, 2007, 10:08:04 »

HI Shipaddict,

I agree that Shipsim has only been around for a couple years now and that Flightsim has evolved over a much longer period and that VSTEP have done a great job.

I think the concern that people are expressing however is a valid one. An integral component to the success of flightsim has been the ability for users to develop their own content. I hope I'm wrong about this but, not offering the ability to the community to build their own vessels and scenery will, i believe limit the eventual interest and evolution of this program.

Larse Klaoud

Author Topic: SDK R.I.P. (Read 29599 times)