Bugsier 2 & Ocean Star control fix request

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[CAPFlyer]

When you release 1.4 can you please correct the controls on the Bugsier 2 and Ocean Star so that the throttle is not connected to the rudder control on the joystick?  I have followed your directions and am quite surprised to find that when I try to rotate the controller via the rudder channel I also get a gradual increase in throttle until it is at full with the controller at 90 degrees.  I do not understand why it was programmed this way as this is not how the real controllers are designed.  The existing direct-thrust controls from pre-New Horizons ships (like the Red Eagle) work just fine.  Your rudder turns the controller from -179 to 180 and the throttle sets your power.  I don't understand why it was felt that the Azipods had to be done different.  Both control systems work on the same principle - you have one control axis to set direction of thrust and a second axis to control the amount of thrust produced in that direction.

[Ule]

I think that was meant to simplyfie controlling those ships for beginners but for me it is totally confusing. I fully agree with you.

Greetings Uli

[pigdog]

I agree with this completely, it's not realistic at all and it would be most appreciated if something could be done to correct it.

There has been some discussion about this here:

http://www.shipsim.com/ShipSimForum/index.php/topic,6614.msg70572.html#msg70572

pigdog

[mvsmith]

Hi CAPFlyer,
V1.4 has been released—that’s what New Horizons is.
Marty

[Finn700]

Hi CAPFlyer,
V1.4 has been released—that’s what New Horizons is.
Marty

And that's totally wrong.
An optional add-on should never affect the actual product version number.

[[RWP]DJM]

And that's totally wrong.
An optional add-on should never affect the actual product version number.

Why not, surely it makes sense to update the game with an Add-On automatically, rather than having to update that separately too, yes?

The 1.4 update will be released as a separate download for those who don't purchase the New Horizons Add-On

Regards.

DJM.

[Eemspoort]

Hmmm, am i the only one, that doesn't have problems with the controlls of those ships?
I agree that the controlls of the Ocean Star are a bit confusing from time to time, but the Bugsier is a fine ship to controll.

And why aren't the controlls realistic? These kind of controll-handles are just modern.
Most new inland-ships have these kind of controlls for they're bow-thrusters. Works like a charm.

[Traddles]

I fully agree with Eemspoort. I have no problem at all with the controls on either of the two vessels mentioned. If you use the search facility for "Ocean Star" controls or "Bugsier2" controls you will find a great deal of help. Perhaps the system of control is not 100% as in reality, but lets face it, this is a computer simulator and as such is a very near copy of the real thing.

[SirXpression]

I agree with the last two posts...altho not 100% real...they make manovering fun and challenging

[pigdog]

why aren't the controlls realistic?

The control handles do look correct, infact they look lovely but I'm sure you are aware that a real pod control handle will not increase/decrease revs when turned to port or stbd alone and why only the port control handle? you have to move the throttle arm to increase revs and rotate the whole control unit for steering, you can not do this in the game this is the problem and that is why it is not realistic.

The only control that will do this on a pod driven vessel is a joystick or lipstick, which is a seperate control all together from the manual controls we have shown at the moment, this control device ties all the controls into one ie:both engines, both pods steering and thrusters (if fitted) to enable the vessel to move in a desired direction at very slow speed for (berthing in the Ocean star's case) or (fire fighting in the B2's case) they would not in my experience be used on an everyday basis for normal operations and would not be used for towing, infact if I remember correctly the manifacturers recommend they are not used for towing operations in case you loose an engine as the system needs both to operate safely and they do so with reduced power as it takes an amount of top end power to control the whole thing as one unit to keep the engines within their safety margins.

The system in the game at the moment only operates one pod and no thrusters so therefore again it is not realistic if they want to have this control then make a seperate control handle for it and leave the two handles we have at the moment to turn 180 deg seperately and the same for the engines as capflyer said the same as Red Eagle's max steering angle.

What are you using to control the B2 Eamspoort joystick, pad or keyboard?

What is fun and challenging about something that is not correct in a simulator? it may as well be that ******* ducky thing that we're sailing round in!

[martijn]

If I understand correctly, you are controlling the azimuth with the joystick and it is not working correctly.

The mouse control however should be perfectly fine. This is also the only way to have as much control as possible, you cannot simulate azimuth controls with a joystick, since in a joystick direction and thrust will always be connected.

Unless you have some kind of more fancy joystick that can also rotate along it's own axis. Than you can setup the controls probably the way you want.

There was however a small bug in the 1.4 release of the add-on that will be sorted out soon, that might be the answer to your 'troubles'. And it is called "Azimuth arcade steering override". Basically, this will enable you to have direct steering and thrust with your joystick on azimuth enabled ships, like the Ocean Star and Bugsier2.

To make it a bit more bearable for you guys, I included the 'fix' in this post. The language file was simply missing a text (it always gets a bit hectic with translations near the end of development, you know). If it works, you should see the attached new option, if it doesn't, you'll have to wait for a bit .

EDIT: I heard from a moderator it might not work well for you guys, if it doesn't, please wait for the patch. Oh and always create a backup .

[pigdog]

Thanks for that Martijn, I will give it a go,

Can you just tell me where to put this file, do we need to overwrite the langauage en file or just add to it?

Many thanks

Pigdog

[LucAtC]

The file must be placed in "xxx\ShipSim2008\Languages" after having renamed the original one for instance in Language_EN_origin.xml . If it doesn't work, you can then easily go back.
Don't forget to tell if it worked 
Regards,
Luc

[pigdog]

Hi Luc, no it won't work it loads up to 100% then questviewer crashes.

Guess we'll just have to wait.

cheers

pigdog

[Traddles]

This is purely an observation. The real controls on the "Ocean Star", or one like her, and on "Bugsier2" probably cost thousands of Pounds (Euros) whilst the ships themselves, possibly even "B2" cost millions. Here we have a simulation game which cost less than £30, and has umpteen different ships and boats in it. I use a mouse which represents my hand and it operates the controls perfectly well. (Even both port & starboard ones) The mouse came with the computer, wheras a fancy joystick probably cost more than the game itself. I really do not understand the perpetual griping about things in the simulator. If one really wants the exact copy of reality it is going to cost, at the very minimum, thousands of pounds (euros). When Stulken derricks for heavy lifts first came onto the market one had to have four winchmen and a man to operate hand signals to all of them. Nowadays there is a fancy "magic box" to control the whole thing in the hands of one person. However, that Magic box possibly costs a fortune, I would think. (N.B. to shift the hook from one hatch to another you had to lift the whole purchase up until it was standing on top of the derrick then swing the derrick through between the posts before letting out the purchase wire and lowering the bottom block to it's correct lifting position.) All this is called progress, surprisingly enough, which is exactly what Vstep are doing slowly but surely. As a seafarer myself, I was trained to make do with what was available, and this we were usually able to do, and remarkably well more often than not.
I have no intention to offend anyone, I merely make an observation, as I said at the beginning. However the simulator, in order to be commecially successful, must cater for a very wide clientele, from young children up to old fogeys like me. I hope I make my point.

Angus.
P.S. I will now step back and wait for the flak to fly.

[Jayshum]

Although this has probably been said, I'm going to type up how I'd like the controls to work with my contoller, as it's as close as possible to the real thing.

My controller is an Xbox 360 Controller. Just for those who don't know, it's almost the same as a Playstation controller in terms of function, except that it has analogue 'triggers' instead of buttons in the L2/R2 position. They work in the same way as a joystick as in, the harder they're pressed, the more power you get (like an accelerator pedal!).

Firstly, I'd like each Schottel to be associated to one joystick (on the controller), and for that to control JUST the rudder angle. That way, when I press the stick up, that'll make the schottel face forward which will make the tug/ship move forwards. When I press the stick down, it'll make the schottel face backwards, making the tug/ship move backwards. Left and right on the stick will make the tug/ship move sideways in whichever direction relative to where the Schottel's are situated (fore or aft).
I'd then like to be able to put the power for each unit to be put onto one of the analogue shoulder buttons. L2 for the port unit, R2 for the starboard. With all this said, to move the Bugsier sideways to the right, you'd push both sticks to the right, and press both shoulder buttons (which are the accelerators if you like!). 

I've included a diagram below to simplify my complicated post!

I'd also like to point out that this is the nearest that a controller could come to a real Schottel/Azimuth/Aquamaster control in my opinion. You'd get full directional capability, only instead of having acceleration on the same stick, I've put it onto the shoulder button. Even if you're controller doesn't have analogue triggers like my one (if it's modern, it really should to be honest), then it'd be exactly the same as pressing 7 and/or 9 on your numpad on the keyboard.

[Finn700]

Why not, surely it makes sense to update the game with an Add-On automatically, rather than having to update that separately too, yes?

The 1.4 update will be released as a separate download for those who don't purchase the New Horizons Add-On

Regards.

DJM.

I think there will not be downloadable version 1.4 for the 1.3  version users.
What this add-on adds to the core of the sim, not counting the external goods which add-on has it values (missions, ships, new enviroment)
That's right: Nothing

The physics, graphics etc are the same, so no need to free 1.4 version.
And this is still the point, Ship Simulator 2008 with New Horizons should be version 1.3.
And I admit this is off-topic for miles.

[[RWP]DJM]

Actually, you'd be surprised what changes have been made to the Simulator since 1.3.  Some major changes took place, that's also why New Horizons has a different version number

Regards.

DJM.

[Finn700]

Actually, you'd be surprised what changes have been made to the Simulator since 1.3.  Some major changes took place, that's also why New Horizons has a different version number

Regards.

DJM.

Multiplayer works quite nicely with 1.3 users..

[TerryRussell]

Good evening.

Just to revert to the original post (and also some of the follow-ups), the controls on Bugsier and Ocean Star are just fine. The error is in the way that CAPFlyer has his joystick and Ship Simulator configured, I think.

It sounds like he has "precision steering" set to on. Therefore whenever he pushes the yoke forwards, like everyone else he will tend to not push it absolutely straight. There will always be some sideways movement. With precision controls set to on, his left or rightward bias is cummulative and the vessel goes in that direction.

I use keyboard controls, mouse and/or twin axis gamepad. I don't use the joysticks for rudder or thruster motion. I use the switches. So, I can push forward and I go forward. But to swivel the thusters, I push the switches. Works a treat!

As DJM says, New Horizons contains a considerabel number of chnages that affect ship dynamics, the operation of the game and so on. A number of bugs have been fixed (although some remain and a couple of minor new ones seem to have been created - most people will never come across them I suspect)

[pigdog]

I don't think griping is the correct term to use here, nobody is throwing their toys out of the pram or stamping their feet like a spoilt child, topping derricks or using them in a union purchase configuration, they are just pointing out some experiences they've had that would benefit the game play for users who prefer a little more realism and point out a possible problem that may have been overlooked during the design of this latest edition.

As you quite rightly point out as a merchant seaman I too have made use of what is to hand and built my own controller using real ships controls and other odds and ends for a lot less than this game costs and it works perfectly with this game and any other I've tried it with, the trouble is with the lack of control configuration for people using joysticks,joypads and or any other control device and not anybody's joystick or controller in particular.
We all know the pods can be controlled fine with the keypad and or the mouse but that IS NOT THE PROBLEM a real ship is not controlled by frantically waving a mouse over a coloured circle trying to centre the steering or reduce revs especially on a powerful harbour tug so please let's stop going over the same ground with "it works fine for me with my keypad and mouse" we know it does but it doesn't with a joystick or other controller, if you connected a real azimuth controller to your computer the game will not let you use it as so, that is the problem, infact I've got some bits left over from my build so I will make an azipod control to show the problem (when I get time).

To answer a couple of other points that have been raised precission steering does not effect the problem it just adds to it, in my case as the real ship controls I use are precission enabled anyway (as in if I move the throttle or the steering controls an inch they stay there in that position until I move them again) with precission steering on if I move the control an inch the revs or steering angle just keep going up to max so I don't have it turned on.

Before NH was released I could turn the pods on the ocean star 360 deg and control the throttles seperately now I can't so for me this has changed for the worse and it's not ideal for all users, now I totaly understand that the game has to be for the masses to use and everyone has a keyboard etc but for those of us who prefer and are used to joysticks this is a really annoying problem, maybe it will be fixed I hope so.

Right I'd best pick those toys up now.

[Jayshum]

Terry, I have to agree with Pigdog man. I love the game, damn fine. I just wish that I could control the Bugsier on my controller in a realistic manner.

Pigdog, the diagram I put together, would that be the way you'd go about doing it, or would you put the engine controls on the sticks as well (I think that would be really tricky to be honest, as then you'd have to be very delicate on the sticks whilst turning)?

[CAPFlyer]

Okay, since it's obvious that my original post wasn't fully read, I'll say it again, but in point-by-point for easier reading....

1) I use a CH Products Throttle Quadrant.  I have it set up that the first 2 levers control rudder 1 & 2 respectively, the second two control engine 1 & 2 respectively, and the last 2 levers control thruster 1 & 2 respectively.  I NEVER use precision controls, as much as this annoys me since all the controls "zero out" every time I try to type something in the Multiplayer chat (another thing that needs to be fixed ASAP as it severely affects the playability of the simulation).

2) I have tried the Bugsier & Ocean Star with both the "Azimuth Steering Override" on and off. 

2a) With it off, my controls only steer the Azipods 26 degrees to port and starboard, but throttle operation is as expected (independent of Azipod angle).

2b) With it on, I can get 90 degrees of rotation and the setting of my throttle to "forward" or "reverse" of neutral will allow full 360 degrees of control.  HOWEVER, when I rotate the Azipods left and right with even a small amount of forward or aft thrust commanded, rotating the Azipods port or starboard causes a linear increase of throttle as well, increasing as angle increases to give full RPMs at 90 degrees to both sides and 0 RPMs at 0 or 180 degrees.  This is incorrect operation.

3) On the Red Eagle with the same control setup, I can properly set my thrust direction and thrust amount independently with no problems, I am requesting that this control scheme be used as well for the Azipod-equipped ships as this is correct where the "rudder" axis controls the direction of thrust (by setting vane angle or azipod direction) and the "throttle" axis controls the amount of thrust (setting vane angle or propeller pitch).

I am by no means a programmer, but I've used computers enough and I've done work specifications enough to know that fixing this is not a complicated nor involved process and I don't understand why the programmers chose to do thing the way they did.

BTW, "challenging" is not a proper evaluation of whether a ship's controls are done right or not, so please toss that excuse out the window and let's talk about the issue at hand.  The linking of the throttle to the deflection of the Azipods from straight ahead or straight aft is wrong and should be fixed by the time the v1.4 download is released.

[Ule]

Controlling the B2 and the OS may work fine with mouse or keyboard but the problem of controlling by joystick is that instead of reversing the pods the controller is jumping 180 degs and you never know where that point is. Also steering on reverse is a horror because when you reach a certain point the controller jumps on  forward because the sim might interpret your manoeuvre as turning on the plate and your forward speed increases. I would be lucky if the controller direction would just follow my joystick commands and the pods should be made reversible like in real.

By the way the controls pigdog was  talking abt is DP (Dynamic Positioning). It coordinates thrusters and propulsion to keep the vessels in a fixed position. This can be used also for berthing. If you move the stick forward the ship moves forward and if you move the stick sideways the vessel transverses sideways. this installation is very expensive and you can find it mainly on cruise ships and very luxury yachts (to avoid anchoring in places where anchoring is forbidden or impossible) and on special ships like cable layers, survey vessels, anchor handling ships .....

Greetings Uli

[Eemspoort]

Ah, NOW i get it! So your Throttle Quadrant doens't work well with SS08. Or the other way arround, as you please.

It's a strange problem indeed. But it's no use to keep asking for a 1.4 download, since you allready have that, otherwise you wouldn't know how it would work on the Bugsier 2. 
But that's just a minor detail. Let's call the update you wan't the 1.5 download.

I don't think many people use Throttle Quadrants or alike products with SS08. So i'm afraid, that there isn't much info on this problem yet.

I just looked up on your Throttle Quadrant. Talking about reality, a Throttle Quadrant meant for plains, isn't very realistic to use for ships, don't you think? I mean, if you wan't to steer to port or starboard, you have to move the lever up or down.    Same for the bowthrusters.
This is not meant as a negative comment, everyone is free to use whatever controlls they like.

Have you tried to use your Quadrant in combination with a regular joystick? So the Quadrant for engine control, and the joystick for "rudder"-controll?
Could you tell us, in what ways you can configure your Quadrant?