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Author Topic: Bugsier 2 & Ocean Star control fix request  (Read 10664 times)

Ule

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Re: Bugsier 2 & Ocean Star control fix request
« Reply #25 on: April 12, 2008, 08:38:47 »

Yes I use the throttle quadrant for engine and for bow thruster control and a Joystick for steering and stern thruster control. Ok I'm not happy controlling the thruster with the TQ and the Z-axis of my Joystick but I got used to it.

Greetings Uli
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Eemspoort

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Re: Bugsier 2 & Ocean Star control fix request
« Reply #26 on: April 12, 2008, 08:41:03 »

Ule: i was asking this to the topic-starter, but thank's for your reply! So the problem still excists when using a joystick for rudder??
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NathanC

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Re: Bugsier 2 & Ocean Star control fix request
« Reply #27 on: April 12, 2008, 08:55:02 »

I think VSTEP will release a free download to put normal controls on these 2 vessels due to all these complaints
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Eemspoort

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Re: Bugsier 2 & Ocean Star control fix request
« Reply #28 on: April 12, 2008, 09:09:44 »

Well then, i just did a test myself with my Saitek X52.

When i use the throttle-handle for engine-controll, and joystick for steering, things don't go as planned.
When i only use the joystick for steering and throttle, things look much better, allthought it isn't as it should be.

So yes, VStep should get this on they're "to-do-list", to make controlls with joystick and/or throttle quadrant work like it should. :)
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m/s "Eemspoort"
1961, Hilgers A.G.-Rheinbröhl
76,2 x 8,20 x 2,72 mtr, 1085 ton
Deutz RBV 6 M 545, 800 HP @ 380 rpm
Daf KMD 250.2, 250 HP @ 1800 rpm, bowthruster

pigdog

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Re: Bugsier 2 & Ocean Star control fix request
« Reply #29 on: April 12, 2008, 09:31:35 »

It's not an easy problem to describe as jayshum and capflyer will agree but I can see the lightbulbs pinging on from here as more people understand what the problem actually is.

Well done Eamspoort for trying out the joystick and understanding our problem I wish more people would do this before posting replies.

Yes Ule the stick or lipstick I was refering to is indeed the manual control for DP but I doubt very much it would be on a harbour tug but it would definitely be on the ocean star, I have used them on harbour tugs but it's not linked to GPS it's just for manouvering whilst fire fighting.
I don't understand the whole flipping from ahead to astern business and then when you go to turn the steering it jumps back ahead again.

Jayshum, yes I think you're right about putting both throttle and steering on the sticks maybe a little tricky to handle I'd keep it as you decribed before.
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Jayshum

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Re: Bugsier 2 & Ocean Star control fix request
« Reply #30 on: April 12, 2008, 10:04:06 »

I've tried setting up my controller in every way possible to run properly with the Bugsier, and it's just not possible at all.

The way I currently have it (which works well, but severely prevents the tug from manoeuvring to it's fullest), is to have the left stick as a Rudder extending from 270-90 (far left, to far right), tied to both units. My right trigger (R2) makes them point forward. Now here's the problem. In order for them to point astern, I have to press the left trigger, and pull BACK on my rudder stick, which indicates to me that there's a problem with using a joypad/stick. I hope what I've said it's clear, if not I'll make another diagram later, busy right now!
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TerryRussell

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Re: Bugsier 2 & Ocean Star control fix request
« Reply #31 on: April 12, 2008, 10:11:48 »

Good morning all.

Bottom line is that for me, I have Ship Simulator and my Saitek twin-yoke game pad working just fine. I can control Bugsier, Red Eagle, Red Jet, Ocean Star with good precision. Please don't change anything, Vstep.

If you don't like the way it works for you, change your configuation. Almost all joystick & gamepads have ways to reprogram them to make things more the way you want them. By and large, I expect the solution is in your own hands (quite literally).

Of course, no matter what controllers anyone uses, it wil not be "realistic" since you won't have many tons of metal underneath you, bobbing up and down, being blown by the wind and carried by the currents. You don't risk sinking and being drowned if things go wrong. This is a simulation, so at best it will only be a bit like real life.
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Jayshum

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Re: Bugsier 2 & Ocean Star control fix request
« Reply #32 on: April 12, 2008, 11:26:23 »

Hang on Terry, that's not a very fair comment at all if I may say so. There's quite a few people here who've recognised a problem with how the game (well the Bugsier and Ocean Star) work with Controllers. I'd therefore really like Vstep to look into this, possibly use my rushed-diagram to understand what we mean etc.

I too can use the Red Jet and Red Eagle just fine with my controller set-up, however the Bugsier doesn't behave as I'd expect. You say that you have it working just fine with yours, so could you post a link to your pad (as when I googled it just now, I found nothing that matches it), and perhaps post your exact control settings from in-game, as I'd very much love to have my controller working properly with my favourite ship in the game! Sorry if I come across as 'whiny', I don't mean to be. But you come across as very elitist when you make comments like 'Please don't change anything Vstep', almost insinuating that it is us (Pigdog and myself for example) who are at fault here. The controller I use works flawlessly with all other ships. I've changed it's parameters to suit ship sim better, and it gives me a richer, fuller experience than I get could ever get using a pesky, and in-no-way-realistic mouse and keyboard. So with that said (and hopefully no offence caused...), Please Vstep, as a HUGE fan of your Simulator, could you look into the problem that people are having with using the Bugsier with a Controller/Joypad? :)

EDIT: Was going to post this yesterday, but forgot, so I'll include it in this post.
If I understand correctly, you are controlling the azimuth with the joystick and it is not working correctly.

The mouse control however should be perfectly fine. This is also the only way to have as much control as possible, you cannot simulate azimuth controls with a joystick, since in a joystick direction and thrust will always be connected.


Hi Martijn. I'm not sure if you referring to a joystick in the sense of the tall, (usually) black, jet-fighter type stick, or one of the analogue sticks on a joypad, but if it was the latter, then the direction and thrust can be disconnected from one another, as is evident in many console-based First Person Shooters. In Halo or Call of Duty for example, the right thumbstick (/analogue stick, too many terms for them lol) serves as the player's head if you like, and allows you to look in any direction. It does not move the player in any way other than through 360 degrees on the spot where he's stood though, as movement (forward, backwards, and strafing) is all put onto the left stick. So surely it'd be quite simple to have a set-up in ship sim where as the Schottel unit could be positioned through a full 360 degrees, according to the direction that the joystick is being pushed to, whilst engine speed could be attributed to another button/control (i.e. triggers/shoulder buttons)?
« Last Edit: April 12, 2008, 11:52:49 by Jayshum »
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pigdog

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Re: Bugsier 2 & Ocean Star control fix request
« Reply #33 on: April 12, 2008, 11:41:37 »

Terry with all due respect there does appear to be a problem with the way these controls operate with joysticks and other controllers, it's not a configuration problem, you may have your controls set up to your liking but I don't know how much experience of handling a real pod driven vessel you have, if it's not a lot then you will not know any different will you, you will assume they handle that way for me having worked on pod driven, water jet, schottel, voith and conventional driven vessels the way the B2 control inputs work at the moment are totaly alien.

I can control the red eagle and the red jet just fine too with my controller but the way the pods have been implimented into NH is not correct therefore it does not even remotely simulate anything no matter how much reprograming of controllers or arcade this and precission that you have turned on or off.
The idea of a simulator is to simulate real life all beit on a screen so the least I would expect is something close to the real controls so I know if I turn a certain control on my real tug it should do the same in NH and not do something else completely different, we are all aware I'm sure of the limitations of a computer based simulation but thats what vstep do they create simulations, they don't make fantasy shoot em up, alien killing, racecar driving, world war 2 recreating games do they? and what they have done with SS has been long overdue and they have done a very good job with it, nobody is complining, whingeing or crying about this they are sharing information with each other and hopefully the developers to improve a problem they have, it still needs input and guidence from people who know and handle these vessels on a day to day basis to point out certain possible problems that they encounter within SS to make this more of a simulator and to improve the overall experience for all users or they would have called it the ship driving game and we could all steer our ships with knifes and forks as control inputs and put the virtual kettle on to go ahead and the microwave on for 30 seconds to go astern because some of us don't know any different.

 

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TerryRussell

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Re: Bugsier 2 & Ocean Star control fix request
« Reply #34 on: April 12, 2008, 16:51:06 »

Hi pigdof.

As you say, you don't know how much experience I have. But that information is out there. I suspect it may be a bit more than some of the posters.

But that's not really the issue. You have to remember that this is a 35 pound simulator not a many thousand pound version. Inevitably the developers have to balance reality against the technical capabilities of the computing equipment being used, the expectations of the average buyer of the simulator, the amount of time available to program things into the simulator and a hundred other things.

As you don't really have a ship under you when you use the Simulator, and don't have the assorted wheels, handles and levers to pull, push, twist and turn, it all has to go through a most unrealistic joystick, mouse or keyboard. Naturally some people will say "all perfectly OK for me" and some will wish it to be otherwise.

Me, I'm happy enough with it. I can and have reprogrammed my controllers to make it better for me, while accepting that this is not reality.  ;D

Realistically, I doubt that this thread will have the slightest effect on teh programmers, one way or the other so perhaps we're all whistling in a storm.  ;)
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pigdog

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Re: Bugsier 2 & Ocean Star control fix request
« Reply #35 on: April 12, 2008, 17:56:27 »

Terry, you could be the captain of the Queen Mary for all I know (if you were you would probably agree with this post) but I'm not going searching for your sea going credentials and I wasn't questioning your knowledge of a given propulsion system as you say it's not an issue.

I do have the
Quote
assorted wheels, handles and levers to pull, push, twist and turn
and it still doesn't work correctly.

I'm glad your happy with your set up and if it's that good start another post on how great it is or contribute here some constructive ways around the problem that other people have instead of trying to imply that everybody else is p***ing and crying for the sake of it, how have you set your controls up? what do you use? somebody's already asked you to give some details that might help.

As I said before
Quote
we are all aware I'm sure of the limitations of a computer based simulation
it's been fine up till now and getting better all the time, it's just one thing that people are having trouble with, they don't want them to rewrite the whole of NH for gods sake.
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TerryRussell

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Re: Bugsier 2 & Ocean Star control fix request
« Reply #36 on: April 12, 2008, 18:36:05 »

I'm glad your happy with your set up and if it's that good start another post on how great it is or contribute here some constructive ways around the problem that other people have instead of trying to imply that everybody else is p***ing and crying for the sake of it, how have you set your controls up? what do you use? somebody's already asked you to give some details that might help.

Pigdog, I have never accused anyone of anything. Please point to where I've done that and I will appologise profusely. If not, perhaps you'd reciprocate? Assuming you have what it takes to do that.

I did take the time to point out some settings that I thought might be usefully changed, if you'd care to go back and look. Those included some ways to modify the joystick controls and changing settings n Ship Simulator.

Perhaps you'd have the decency to review those and then review your statements in the previous post and see if you still feel that way.

Stop snapping at me and I'll be glad to help. I spend a lot of time on this forum helping people overcome their problems. But generally people ask in a much more acceptable way.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2008, 19:06:35 by TerryRussell »
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Traddles

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Re: Bugsier 2 & Ocean Star control fix request
« Reply #37 on: April 12, 2008, 20:33:42 »

Hello,
I have to come back on this one. I think that before the mudslinging gets out of hand, it should be remembered that this is a public forum, and as such people of all ages can, and do read what is posted here. If you do not agree with something that has been said, it is very unnecessary to start getting steamed up and letting go at others simply because they do not agree with what you may THINK is correct.
As I said in my earlier post, I suspected that there would be a great deal of flak flying around, and I was obviously right. How sad that we cannot behave in a civilised manner. I will no longer be participating in this particular thread as I feel it has lost touch with the whole ethos of the game. So I will say goodbye, and hope that is the end of the bickering.
NB. I mention no names as it would be rude to do so, but if the cap fits, wear it. :o

Angus.
 
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[RWP]DJM

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Re: Bugsier 2 & Ocean Star control fix request
« Reply #38 on: April 12, 2008, 20:36:04 »

I totally agree with that statement Angus, very well said :)

Regards.

DJM/Carl.
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CAPFlyer

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Re: Bugsier 2 & Ocean Star control fix request
« Reply #39 on: April 13, 2008, 02:36:34 »

Thanks for deleting my post moderators.  If you didn't like part of it, edit it.  >:( >:( >:(

I think that maybe it's time for a change in moderating tactics.  You stay so heavy handed on how you moderate and more and more users will walk away because they'll feel they can't get help without fear of their posts being removed and getting no help at all without ANY offer of assistance.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2008, 02:40:00 by CAPFlyer »
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mvsmith

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Re: Bugsier 2 & Ocean Star control fix request
« Reply #40 on: April 13, 2008, 04:31:19 »

Put a cork in it CAPFlyer. Were it not for the efforts of the Moderators, this forum would degenerate into one big sandbox—until the juveniles kicked all the sand out.
The only change needed in tactics is to start tossing more of the troublemakers out.
Marty
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pigdog

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Re: Bugsier 2 & Ocean Star control fix request
« Reply #41 on: April 13, 2008, 10:21:52 »

Terry,

I feel your comments in your posts on this subject have been very dismissive this is why I have been snapping at you, you don't seem to understand or be willing to accept that there may be a problem and you do seem to throw the blame at the feet of others that have encountered it.

Quote
if you'd care to go back and look

I have read this post from start to finish and check it frequently and I know exactly whats been said and by who, I would not sit here for hours tapping away if I didn't fully understand the subject matter and feel strongly about it, as I do truly believe there is a problem and to have it dismissed as my own fault then you are indeed accusing me of incorrectly setting up my equipment and complaining about it.
Quote
By and large, I expect the solution is in your own hands (quite literally).


I will apologise for my comments
Quote
how have you set your controls up? what do you use? somebody's already asked you to give some details that might help.
That was un called for and born out of frustration which I know can be easily misunderstood in text form and not the way to ask for assistance and I will also apologise for any strong or foul language used as this doesn't achieve anything.
 
I do read a lot of posts on this forum and I do know that you offer your help when needed, which I'm sure is appreciated by many users, I hope you can offer some more detailed constructive help in this matter so we can move on and all enjoy ship simulator.

Pigdog
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Traddles

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Re: Bugsier 2 & Ocean Star control fix request
« Reply #42 on: April 13, 2008, 11:35:34 »

 ::) ::) ;)
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pigdog

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Re: Bugsier 2 & Ocean Star control fix request
« Reply #43 on: April 13, 2008, 11:53:35 »

whats that supposed to mean?

That doesn't appear to be adult behavior does it and adds nothing constructive to the subject of this post.

thanks a lot Traddles.
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Jayshum

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Re: Bugsier 2 & Ocean Star control fix request
« Reply #44 on: April 13, 2008, 13:20:50 »

I'm not trying to start anything, but I can't say that I saw Pigdog do anything wrong to be honest. Surely we're all adult enough here to have an argument without taking it personally?

I think that the bottom line is that there appears to be a problem with the way controllers function with the Azimuthing Thrusters in-game. One person disputed that it was the game, saying it was us. As I'm sure anyone would agree, it's not nice when people don't believe you, even going as far to say nothing should be done about it. On that count, I apologise if anyone took offence to anything I said (but come on, we haven't just learned our alphabet have we?!). So, with all that said and done, could you post your settings please Terry? I've had a search just now, and everything I've found doesn't make a difference. I've tried with 2 different brands of controller as well now (Microsoft Xbox 360 Controller for Windows, and a Joytech one, old). Both work fine with the game, every ship except the B2 and Ocean Star. So I'll reiterate the point I made in my earlier post that I'd love it if this could be looked into, as it'd make the game that much better. :)
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mvsmith

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Re: Bugsier 2 & Ocean Star control fix request
« Reply #45 on: April 13, 2008, 16:12:31 »

One thing should be kept in mind in this spat. Joysticks of the type discussed work in Cartesian coordinates. Actual controllers of the type depicted in the sim work in polar coordinates.
A satisfactory solution requires an in-sim coordinate system conversion and joysticks that retain position hands-off. Hopefully, the first will be included in Ship Simulator 2009.
Marty
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Ule

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Re: Bugsier 2 & Ocean Star control fix request
« Reply #46 on: April 13, 2008, 18:49:23 »

To calm down all parties involved, isn't it possible to give us back the old way the pods worked before patch 1.4 (or New Horizons) as an additional option and keep the present settings for those who love it?
For me (may be that belongs to future requests....) the best solution would be that the user should be able to create some kind of controller-profile for each Simvessel. 

Greetings Uli
« Last Edit: April 13, 2008, 18:56:13 by Ule »
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pigdog

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Re: Bugsier 2 & Ocean Star control fix request
« Reply #47 on: April 14, 2008, 10:42:19 »

Good point Ule,

Going back to the previous settings and keeping the current ones as well for those who prefer them would be an idea and would fix the problem we have, to get back the 360 control as you have on the red eagle and loose the auto throttle on the port hand steering control would solve it.
I believe they have changed some of the dynamics for some of the ships and in turn the way you control them so as long as it didn't effect that I don't see why not, just more work for the developers but could be a patch later on.
 
Having a controller profile system would be a nice idea but as you say we may not see this until future shipsims are released but another way would be to seperate precission steering and precision engines and thrusters etc, that way you could use precision enabled joysticks or other controllers for certain tasks giving you far more options than at present.

pigdog
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saltydog

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Re: Bugsier 2 & Ocean Star control fix request
« Reply #48 on: June 16, 2008, 12:30:31 »

I'm pretty sure this is a silly question, but here goes..
I've had NH a few days, and I still can't figure what the red part of the throttle does on Bugsier.. ::)
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NathanC

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Re: Bugsier 2 & Ocean Star control fix request
« Reply #49 on: June 16, 2008, 12:51:20 »

That is the reverse thrust  ;)

Green is for forwards and red is for backwards  ;)
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