question about the future of the game

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[wiqvist]

"This comes from Frank VSTEP, what means this

Let me post on a side note that some users that come posting here expect the things you get in a €250K simulator in a €39.99 game. That is of course not going to happen, no matter how much we improve the game.
Frank"

This was posted in another thread by Krisotend.

And this statement realy made me think and I ended up with one question which is realy important for me to get an answer on and I hope that Frank can explain a bit further about what he ment with this.

Is there going to be something more to controle than the movement of the ships in the different directions?

Cause if there is no thoughts at all on Vstep to include something more to controle on the bridge than the speed and turning the ship, then I am going to sell the game. My hope for SSE was that it one day should become more than a "boatdriving game", that it should become a "shipsimulator game".

[joshbw]

Would you buy the next version of this game??? Vstep has made a "game" not a simulation and that's what it is.  I have stopped fighting it and just let my kids play with it now, but they get board within 5 minutes too and just try to crash into things.

[Frank_VSTEP]

wiqvist,

Maybe the game is not what you expected, that is of course always possible.
But surely you have played the game enough to notice there is more in it than just "driving boats"? Even the driving boats part itself is considered pretty versatile by many. How about Azimuth & bow thrusters, Hovercraft, Towing other ships, Piloting, Radar & map navigation, Berthing & mooring in narrow docks, Navigation, Fire Extinguishing and with the updates you have buoys and other features as well.

Regards,
Frank

P.S. Please don't use my name in a topic title, if you have a direct question, rather send me a PM.

[mvsmith]

Learning to control speed and turning correctly is the purpose of a ship simulator.

If you concentrate on learning to do that well, you should have little time to fiddle with superfluous buttons and knobs.
However if you drive through environments and missions like a ball in a pinball game, you will soon become bored.

[Traddles]

Speaking as an experienced seaman I can assure anyone that actually steering and controlling the speed of a ship is just about all there is to do. In the open sea a whole 4 hour watch can go by without having to "fiddle" with any controls at all. I suspect that even the folks who talk regularly about aeroplanes are unaware that nowadays the pilot will take off and land and the computers do the rest in between. So much for having lots of knobs and handles to play with, that part is just a game. Taking the ship to where it needs to go without doing any damage is, as Marty says, the simulation bit.  Many of the "accidents" which happen at sea are due to the officer on watch fiddling with things instead of keeping a good lookout.

[PoRL]

Speaking as a yachtsman, we're always fiddling with the sails / trim / etc!!! 

[mvsmith]

Speaking as a yachtsman, we're always fiddling with the sails / trim / etc!!! 

I think that falls under “controlling speed and steering”.

[Snakebyte92]

Me first question to wiqvist. Are you doing a maritme study and do you know how 1000 of euros simulations are?

I don't think so. I'm doing maritme officer in Amsterdam. And believe me those simulations are different. You have to take care of a lot of stuff. For example: You think you can just sail out. No.. First you have to make a course on special sea cards(mercators cards.). Calcuting the distance(1degree on the earth is 1852 meters. And that is a nautical mile) You have to calculate how much your freeboard is. Etc. Really nice to do. But for ship simulator for everyone, and for €39.95?? No, I don't think so. Aswell you have a lot more buttons and other stuff.
Reading your question I don't think you know how it's. And for people who are playing just a simulator and have nothing to do with the maritime world, I don't think they're interested in it. Then you're spending more time on preparing, than on sailing.

But if you want those simulators go buy them.

Thomas

[Ballast]

You have to calculate how much your freeboard is.

Why do you want to do that? 

[Snakebyte92]

Why do you want to do that?  

Ship stability. Every ship does have a loadline(and other lines for different density of the water. You have special cards for this). Based on the density of the water. You can calculate how much you can load to reach that. You can see that on the side of a ship.
I think the imagine explains himself below.

[Ballast]

I know that, but i don't get it why you want to calculate it during a sim exercise. I'd rather know the deepest draught!   

[wiqvist]

Maybe the game is not what you expected, that is of course always possible.

Frank, you are right about this. I expected more of this game, that it should be more of a simulator.

But I still wonder if Vstep have any plans of adding more things to controle and more things which affect the boat(I missed the last in my first question)?

I repeat the question to you(Frank), cause your answer was only telling me what I already know is included in the game, and all them included have made my opinion of the game, that it is a boat driving game. I had hoped for something more, that the game should be more like a simulator. And I do for sure understand that it can not be a complete simulator. So I ask so I and them who hope this should be more of a simulator and hope for such updates do not need to wait for them if there is no plans of adding such things.

Sorry Frank if you do not like to have your name in a thread(topic).

And please, I hope that most persons will accept my opinion of this game. Some are happy with it as it is, some are not. This is not the same as saying that this is a "bad" game, I hope most will understand also that.

[MokMok]

A good idea would be a basic version of determining the right valuse of draught, the ballast, loadlines, etc.

[Traddles]

Speaking as a yachtsman, we're always fiddling with the sails / trim / etc!!!  

Hi PoRL,
You should try Sail Simulator 5 for this kind of thing. SS Extremes is for Ships, that one is for Yachts. Great fun though.

Angus.

[wiqvist]

Here is one more question I will add to the other one.

When I sell this game, can I burn the "preorder bonus vessel and missions" and put it in the box with the code, or is this not legal?

I am not sure about selling it yet, not before I get an answer of the question I have in this post and the one I started this thread with.

[TNeves]

Learning to control speed and turning correctly is the purpose of a ship simulator.

If you concentrate on learning to do that well, you should have little time to fiddle with superfluous buttons and knobs.
However if you drive through environments and missions like a ball in a pinball game, you will soon become bored.

Exactly, and we must not forget that to be a real simulator, or near that, only one person in the bridge is not what happens in reality, so we need some sort of cooperation, thus only one person can "be" at the helm, if you know  what I mean.  I am more interested in more real physics, and ship behaviour close to reality, than a bunch of buttons to close valves, and reading the temperature of the auxiliary engine

[Tinchu]

Our knowledge and gratitude to VStep for ShipSimulator Series. But I think Vstep is in one dilemma withe this software.
Did they want to make a low profile simulator; a simple toy to spend a while?
Did VStep wait the reactions and demands from the enthusiastic ship fans?
I`m afraid the "creature" has adquired it`s own life; and he is demanding it.
The simulator has a huge potential; unlimited. The question; with all my respect, is: Is ready VStep alone, to satisfy that demand with their resources?

[Semmy]

To be honest (first post on here by the way), I am new to this genre having previously spent an awful lot of time on other types of simulator programs (Flight and Train Sims). This software does not compare favourably.
I had thought the inclusion of Simulator in the game title would tend to indicate the type of "gameplay". Many of the issues that adversly affect the gameplay are well documented on here already but I would like to sumarise my own observations.

First the good points:-
1. Interesting selection of pilotable ships
2. Good selection of missions
3. Good range of weather/sea states

Now the not so good:-
1. Limited area of operations.
2. Minimal AI in evidence
3. Weak AI behaviour
4. Average graphics quality
5. Weak sounds
6. How many RHIB's?
7. Lack of ability to pilot the ships in different states of load
8. Abysmal collision detection and reaction

Though this may appear slightly negative in essence it is truly not so, I would really love to see this software become what it has the potential to be, I do however prefer to be realistic in my appreciation and of course truthful. As it stands this software fails to live up to the promises made pre-purchase.

Post Script

What I would like to see:-

Wind and tide interactions to give a little more challenge, how about the ability to tie the real world weather/tides etc into the game? (FSX manages this)
Realistic damage depiction rather than a "Health Bar"?
Ability to incorporate random equipment failures into the game? (should add to the challenge)
Open up the world to allow transit between harbour areas (pilot out of port to lets say a 5nm distance the a 100nm transit in open ocean then appear 5nm from the intended destination?)
Open up increased graphics capabilities for those of us that have the hardware
Different classes of ships rather than more of the same?
Crew members on bridge?
Sort the AI out?

[Semmy]

"Let me post on a side note that some users that come posting here expect the things you get in a €250K simulator in a €39.99 game. That is of course not going to happen, no matter how much we improve the game.
Frank"

I must also state that I expect to find the things that other €39.99 simulators do provide.

Would it be possible for a member of Vstep to give us a clear indication of what we can expect over lets say the next six months?

[JHB]

Well, honestly, I think VSTEP know who the customers is.
I can make a small list of potential customer groups here:

1. Completely newbies
2. Regular gamers
3. Simulator fans
4. Retired sailors/seamen
5. Boat owners
6. Ship owners
7. Educational institutions, private schools (etc.)

Where are we standing today when it comes to the Ship Simulator series? Well, its a split here, where the professional version is made for educational purposes and sold for a high price.
The standard version is made for gamers and others that doesn't require (or don't have the money) to be able to use "professional" features.

Now, if VSTEP is going to increase the sale, make this product more interesting for retired sailors, hardcore simmers, then they need to expand the features of the game.
Make the features wider when it comes to instrumentation simulation, missions and tasks onboard the ship and not with the ship itself, cargo handling, passenger handling, navigation with instruments that got more features and so on.
I don't think this sim need another boat in the collection, or another ship...we will end up with a ship/boat library that is so huge, but where every single boat and ship has the same boring controls.
So if this is going to be what it is told to be, a simulator, well, add some more technical stuff into it and everything becomes a lot more interesting. That's for those who has a technical background as seamen/sailors or some education/coursing in their real life.

For now, this eh...sim...looks a kinda product only for complete newbies... hey let's sail the largest ship in the world with the WSDA-keys and some cheap controls.. It's not exiting, not exiting at all.
When something gets too cheap, too simple and there is no variation added, it might and will end up as something boring.

A simulator should deliver something that you can play with over a long time, not by adding some boring missions to it, but giving space for situations where the player can make his own missions. Well, we got that feature, but it lacks a lot when it comes to variation, what to simulate, situations onboard the ship, engine failure...? There is no such thing there. Free roaming, what is that? A waste of time...sail around in spooky environments, hardly no life to see. So my point is that this sim..isn't really so much based on the real world, the real life that captains/officers deals with every day. In fact...everything is simplified down to a small donut, made for cheaps that want to spend money on it

And, now I can already sense what the critics want to tell me, that it is so hard to program all this, that it isn't possible for VSTEP to do this...the same stupid arguments that you reply each time someone request something. Well, think about what Microsoft did to the Flight Simulator, and think about what 3rd parties adds to that simulator today. They don't just make another add-on plane, they even make new panels, new instruments and make the simulator wider when it comes to the technical stuff - that what's happens and that is what you need to end up with a great simulator product. And yes...I know that this will not happens over the night, but I find it a little bit funny that it may take years, because it is like reinventing the wheel. The only difference is that this vehicle isn't airborne..it floats on water. Beside of that, there isn't a great difference between airplanes and ships, when it comes to instrumentation. They both can have autopilot, compass, VHF/radio communication, GPS, and of course, fuel control and startup switches for the engines (generally).

For now, what can you learn from Ship Simulator? How to navigate? In a chart with so few symbols that all you see is the depth and some markings? Are you able to learn how to communicate with maritime language? Are you able to learn how a vessel will behave when cargo is placed on board? Are you able to trim the ship for that extra weight? Are able to perform other tasks on board, like controlling the winches for the ropes/mooring gear (by operating them manually)? Can you dock the ship and perform maintenance or order parts to it (this is common stuff in typical racing games today, where you can upgrade parts of your car)?
Well, I suppose that the answer to all those questions is..NO!

So, heh..well, what to say? Keep following this game, but don't expect large changes from one version to another unless VSTEP really push their limits. Watch this place in year 2020 and maybe...maybe you are watching a similar product to FSX today, but where the vehicle is floating at water

So, 2020 folks...2020..(if my prophecy is correct)

[mdfitch]

Well put JHB.
Ship lovers are hungry for a chance to drive the ship of choice, this will never happen just as I will never fly a jumbo jet!

The closest we will get is through a simulator (or game, however you wish to name it).
Some want to play, some want to explore and some want to be taken to a world they dream of but can not get to.

The only way to achieve the latter is to spend a ton of money on the pro version or go to a marine academy and use theirs.

I would have been happier if they had spent their time further developing and adding to SS2008 to make it fit the flight sim model closer; more and better controls , more environments, varying proficiency levels of play.

Microsoft has settings for the new folk that do not know how to fly or use the full complexity of the airways system as well as varying degrees of realism. someone who wishes to "play" can have a great time and those that wish to prepare for the real flight testing can do the same.

The sim is as you say, infinitely develop able by amateur and professional software folk alike.

The new Extremes is unstable, the physics do not work well and when you are over the thrill of the new ships (and missing ones)! the whole thing  is just annoying.  Sadly, I find myself going back to 2008 when the frustration gets too much.

I enjoyed the fact that 2008 is well populated with well behaved AI vessels that required close attention when leaving port or traveling the busy waters of the big ports. who says that 2008 was slow and boring are correct if you like flying a jet, but I find the calculated movements needed way in advance to navigate a heavy vessel in tight places, whilst watching out for others, is a great way to jump into another world.

They should stop making new Ship sims and actual develop the good foundation they have.

And please; give us a fully functional bridge and develop something that allows us to run our already paid for fleet of 2008 ships.

Thanks guys and gals..

[ACR]

well, maybe in the first days of the company some people of vstep had the vison to give a ship simulation which is true the word for a price suitable on the private market.

but i think at the lastest after the financial success of ss08 they smelled the money ( and i do not shame them for it!) and ss extremes is a child of the commercial market:

maximum financial success within minimum development costs and effort. that is the story of ss extremes...

@ frank vstep : pleased too see you read the forums and answer it maybe you would be kind to give a comment on this topic

http://80.95.161.114/shipsim/forum/index.php/topic,21907.0.html

thank you very much in advance!

kind regards

[JHB]

I support the thread starter with another reply (http://www.skipssimulator.net/en/sse-in-a-nut-shield/).

Short summary about what VSTEP does:

1. they brag about it (their 550 000 sold copies)
2. they sell it (when the hype has reached a limit)
3. a customer buys it (and got no idea about the bugs).
4. the customer feels cheated (and it ends up in this board)

Point 4 is not a new situation, its a repetition since the 2006-version. It's not hard to see the pattern of how VSTEP operates, and they should be open to this critics and not try to fade it away or hide it.

Anyone with a sense of critical sense can see that this has been going on since the beginning.
This is a trend that likely might become a serious situation some day. It's is like predicting the Doom of Ship Simulator (even if it might look funny).

Just read my article and you will sense the pattern or the Doom of Ship Simulator (yeah, it might sound as a good title for a book, but chapter 1 is already written)


So, there is no more room to discuss the reality (that this game once a time is reviewed to be what it's not (http://www.skipssimulator.net/en/this-is-what-the-critics-says-about-sse/)), but there is a lot of room to discuss how to solve it.

If, not, let's bombard Microsoft with e-mails and make them turn their pro sim into a ship simulator. At least it would give the V-folks some interesting competition.
In fact, Microsoft where turning FSX into a train simulator for a period, but its now iced (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Train_Simulator_2). Anyway, it just shows a company that know about it's own potential, and not a company like VSTEP that likely  makes SS to look like a bi-product.

VSTEP has a great potential, but it looks like the customers are running out of patience. And I don't think that SSE has changed this, not at all. I think SSE just made it worse..

So VSTEP got something to solve, and it's not a great solution to hide this under the carpet and brag about their great amount of sales..shhhh..pfffffffffffffffssssssst! I mean, come on, grab a beer!

[Osprey]

I posted this tonight to the main discussion board, but as this topic under general discussions is on about the future of the game or simulator, I thought it might bear repeating here.   I hope the moderators agree.

----

I have been on board since Ship Sim 06 was passing away.  There have always been things I have wanted V-Step et.al to do better.  Many of them.  Some of them actually important.

And V Step and the volunteer mission creators have always come through for me.

With just enough.

With just enough to keep me glued to the screen for hours.

With just enough for me to get that old queasy feeling in some of the weather / wave conditions.

With just enough for me to actually care to learn how to navigate from the bridge and to trust my instruments and to hell and gone with the god's eye view that makes things so easy....  but still I like looking the easy way too.

With just enough for me to go through Ship Sim Extremes - version 1.0. 1.1, 1.2, and so forth and actually have to uninstall to avoid the one in between.

Because darn it all -  it is way way way way better than 2006 and 2008.  It is will be even better next week.

Way to go.

I love my Ship Simulator Extremes.  


     only one thumb, because  after all SSE is far from perfect      

[Tinchu]

I think there is a mutual wrong idea; from VStep and from us, the "simmers". VStep come from the professional environment, and we are only keen on simulators; planes, cars, ships... There is a certain mutual lack of understanding.

I must admit the simulator runs quite well in my computer. I yearn for certain functions there were in SS2008 (points of view camera, several icons on the bottom right corner has disappeared, the mobility of the map  is quite rude; you nearly can`t see the point of your ship an others in the map, why the features are now displayed in very small characters?, not very comfortable for the user...) I think we had not talked about this aspects of the simulator. We want to imagine VStep will improve them. But at the very beginning we are disappointed. Would it be possible to customize the different icons  and information on screen? To place the levers, the rudder, the displays with information, the chart and radar... as everybody wanted on screen? Nowadays are not unusual people with two or more screen on their computers. The graphic accelerator cards always have two ports.

Perhaps somebody thinks all these considerations are out of the question, but I write them trying to unblock  the matter. Because is quite clear we are dreaming things that VStep never had imagined with this software. Couldn`t talk more about this questions?