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Author Topic: Time for some transparancy  (Read 18282 times)

PoRL

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Time for some transparancy
« on: September 10, 2010, 13:25:26 »

I think things will be a little "easier" in the conversations between Mods / VSTEP / beta testers / users if there was a little more transparency about the current status of SSE.

In my professional life, all software issued comes with release notes. This lists the known bugs on the system, and whether or not they're being worked on for the next patch / revision. (Some bugs are "minor", and the status is "live with it", some are "Major" with an urgent 'hotfix' being developed for it, some are even "New" (Recently come to light and not yet assessed). Hopefully, many of them will be "Will be rectified in next patch").

Surely somebody within VSTEP's QC department is already tracking the listed bugs, assigning priorities and resources, and updating the current status. How about therefore using this existing information on a pinned, read-only thread (regularly updated!) where those known bugs are listed along with their current status? This would at least give us the reassurance that corrective measures are in place for a specific item!

What do you say?
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mvsmith

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Re: Time for some transparancy
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2010, 14:02:44 »

It would serve no purpose other than to produce more flames.
We do acknowledge bugs and state that they are fixed in a patch after we have personally tested it.
To burden VSTEP further by asking them to divert resources from correcting bugs to listing them seems counterproductive.
It has been stated that all bugs will be corrected in patches.

Beta testers / Moderators have all signed non-disclosure agreements that limit what you might call transparency. The behavior and attitude of many posters raise a legitimate concern that too much “transparency” will only give rise to more such behavior.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2010, 14:09:30 by mvsmith »
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PoRL

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Re: Time for some transparancy
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2010, 14:44:16 »

I disagree (maybe obviously!  :) )

There wouldn't be any diversion of resources at all, as VSTEP should already know a) what bugs they're aware of, b) what the status is and c) what the expected resolution steps are. If they don't know these things, they've a really screwed up QC department!!  ;D
(This bug list should be official, and from VSTEP, not the moderators or beta testers. The NDA wouldn't be affected)

Not all bugs will be fixed in the next patch - some will come to light too near the cutoff date for the final build (you obviously need some time to test the patch, right?), some will be too trivial, some will take more time to fix. Bottom line is that there'll be a whole bunch of bugs NOT fixed in the next patch, so cue a whole batch of messages about "XXXX isn't fixed!!!!!".

Remember, we're already generating our own bug lists on these forums! Which looks more professional - VSTEP doing it officially, or a ever-growing mountain of "Have you seen this crap??" posts?
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dodweb

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Re: Time for some transparancy
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2010, 15:22:55 »

I've only had good experiences with such transparency as for example official bug lists, lots of software developers - both big and small - are doing them successfully. I also agree with PoRL that it should not take any extra effort publishing them as they should already exist internally. While I have not been affected by too many bugs or other problems, I've noticed that many whom are running into severe/gamebreaking issues are having problems even getting a reply directly from VSTEP at times (not counting unaffiliated voulneteers with limited information, NDA or otherwise).

Could perhaps the negative behaviour of the many unhappy posters actually be caused by the 'information blackout' created by VSTEP? I know I would find it a lot more comforting, had I been experiencing an issue, to take a look at an official list stating "hey, we know theres a problem there, we're working on it, and hopefully it will be fixed in patch X which he hope will be made public by date Y", than the current practice of finding my issue made into a long post with several others facing the same problem and no word from the programers.

Small replies like the one from a VSTEP employee regarding the potential future addition of functioning bridge instruments being discussed in an upcoming meeting but also being kept on ice until more important issues are sorted, adds a whole lot of goodwill, in my book at least. It might be easier to follow the practice of "fix first, explain later", yet it just doesent sit right with me as a customer.
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Stuart2007

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Re: Time for some transparancy
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2010, 15:41:19 »

One wonders, Marty, whether goderators constantly whining about how mere members are complaining about issues is actually helping.

I'm afraid that it isn't really good enough to release software that blatantly isn't finished. Perhaps vstep should only charge 50% and charge the other 50% when finished?

I haven't bought SSE, so I can be considered impartial. I am still waiting for some of the bugs to be fixed in 08!

Perhaps you forget, Mr Smith, that people DO have the choice whether or not to buy... Vstep should not be taking customers for granted. That is not to say that I actually agree with some of their methods of complaining, but to write off anyone who is complaining as a flamer is a little poor.
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Birder

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Re: Time for some transparancy
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2010, 16:05:27 »

I agree, an official bug list where tested and confirmed bugs are listed would be great as it would stop the many many repeated posts and arguments, repeated posts could be closed after being pointed to the official list.

This list could also have items that the forum says would improve SSE as well.

It would be nice if Vstep then updated the list with **Fixed in next patch ** so users can check when the patch comes out, as often in software a ** fixed ** problem is not fixed as the bug was not understood.

The problem that I see (which i have repeated in another post) is that the testers / moderators are taking the brunt of the comments as personal as if we are moaning at them.

Purchasing the software gives us the right to complain if its faulty and to expect a civil answer not these "If you dont shut up we will take our ball away" attitude. If you dont want to do a moderators job and give answers you should not be a moderator. If you cant find faults in the software you should not be a beta tester.

Moderators getting annoyed with users is a very bad and unprofessional, they MUST be on the users side and put users feelings to the developers and get an answer. I feel sorry for mvsmith and the others as they are most likely getting no answers from Vstep but having a go at users is not the answer.

Making SSE into a sort of members club where only those who are mates can have an answer is not on as the software is available to the public.

Everyone needs to calm down and Vstep need to get the first patch out to show they are doing something.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2010, 16:07:13 by Birder »
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Birder

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Re: Time for some transparancy
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2010, 16:13:40 »

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Mad_Fred

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Re: Time for some transparancy
« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2010, 17:04:26 »

Some people seem to think that there's no system in place that handles bugs.. Or that things they notice to be wrong go undetected. Sorry to burst your bubbles, but the community is not the first and foremost 'finder of bugs', that some of you think it is. :-\

On the contrary, almost EVERYTHING that pops up on the forum, has usaully already been reported before people post about it. And the rest is reported as well. The fact that they were not working properly before release, is something else, which I am not getting into.

But the people's wishes/suggestions/complaints/grievances are all relayed to vstep too. And Vstep visits the forum on a daily basis too and they read it all aswell.

And once things get fixed and patched, you can read about the changes that patch makes, in changelogs.

But, the infomationstream and changes in status is a very big and rapidly changing bundle of data, which makes it just not feasible to upkeep another list, translated into a usable 'public format' and keep it up to date. But rest assured, all the things that come up, are known and noted.

The idea of having a sort of 'look here first before you post a bug report' topic, is not a bad one, it has it's merits, I grant you that, although it might be less effective than most people actually think. This will only be a sort of 'these things are known and reported' thing though, f we'd set up a 'bug aknowledgement topic I reckon. Keeping up with the changes on the bugtracker is not really feasible. And you'll just have to going to take my word for it, you cannot judge it unless you have seen how it works, behind the scenes.

And I also think these kinda topics won't solve the 'clutter' of the forum anyway. Just like all the other guidelines, people just don't seem to ever read them.  And just jump in and post instead. And then there's the people that I qualify as true 'moaners', who do not offer any type of constructive remark at all and just are here to kick up some fuss and take such topics off topic and insert a diverting element in an otherwise helpful topic.

There's a few topics made where we've asked for member feedback, and some people can't even keep to a simple suggested format to make their opinions known, but go off on tantrums, sometimes so bad that we have to edit and remove posts, since obviously.. when customer get angry, the forum rules can go out the door, so it would seem?! And profanity and rudeness to volunteers that are in the middle trying their best, is then suddenly the new norm.. And they wonder why sometimes a member can annoy us.. or why we are reluctant to invite more of that behaviour..  ;D

So anyway, A centered 'these bugs/problems have been reported, read this first' topic is perhaps a good idea though, we can take it into consideration, but it might still be too diverse to have it all visible at a single glance. Cause as you can imagine, there are many different 'sub categories' for bugs..  and that's not even counting all the complaints about featues that DO work, but are not to people's liking. And that's a whoile different story. Features that work are not really up for this discussion of a 'broken game'. Even so, Vtstep listens to that aswell, and has already changed a few things because of the wishes of the end users.

We'll have a look and talk about it, see if it is feasible to create such a list, or if it changes so fast that it will be to messy for the average casual forum user.

But again, know that the ones among you that post clearly and constructively about the problems with the game, and about your wishes for a better game, are listened to!! It's only the unreasonable and non constructive rantings of some 'odd ones out' that sometimes go down the wrong way.

And the reason that you sometimes not get a clear answer, is because we cannot say 'yes, reported and will be fixed' unless we are SURE it can be and will be fixed. Which is much later ,after the fix. and testing. At that point, the info will soon be available in a changelog anyway. So it's really just sometimes a matter of, we can't say yet, cause it might come back to bite us on the behind.  :-\

Kind Regards,
Fred.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2010, 17:08:56 by Mad_Fred »
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bsm2003

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Re: Time for some transparancy
« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2010, 17:29:09 »

There are many bug tracking systems out there.
You don't have to put the source but a system for interaction from customers and Vstep would be best then have a sticky and make users of the bug system have to log in to make comments. Viewing bugs to see if it is the same as they are having should be left open.

I'm one of the people that have had minor bugs and a great experience so far. Just trying to help a bit.

Sourceforge is one of the best known . bugzilla from mozilla is another.

http://www.bugzilla.org/

http://www.dmoz.org/Computers/Software/Configuration_Management/Bug_Tracking/
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Sgt. Dutchy

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Re: Time for some transparancy
« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2010, 17:54:20 »

such a list should really help... inb4 the forum gets even more flooded with hey i found a bug, or hey is this being worked on... the forum really is started to become a big raging mess
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Stuart2007

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Re: Time for some transparancy
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2010, 18:15:44 »

Fred, the fact is that the 'game' isn't finished. I'm sorry, but if someone goes and buys a new car and it won't go above 40mph, you wouldn't expect the maker to say "the engine will be fixed in the next month or so", would you?

I'm sorry but vstep, whom I DO have much respect for, have shot themselves in the nuts this time... The "we deliberately made it low quality to avoid upsetting nautis customers" is icing on cake time! Is the professional version so watered down that sales could be affected by this game???

I actually think vstep has produced some very good stuff and are genuinely trying to resolve issues that have come about due to publisher deadlines (never agree to anything you can't keep to!) However, vstep should be experienced enough to better prepare for deadlines and set them accordingly.
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Finn700

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Re: Time for some transparancy
« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2010, 18:23:22 »

Maybe I'm totally wrong, but I think "forum" is latin and means a large open space where some people may gather or something like that.

In this "forum" we wonder around shouting and asking in different threads, thousands of other people walking by, but we will never know if the person close us at the time when yelled out loud was someone who could do something about our case, or even someone who could pass the question forward.

We are shouting to the darkness, but wishing our voice will be heard. :)
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Mad_Fred

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Re: Time for some transparancy
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2010, 18:33:51 »



We are shouting to the darkness, but wishing our voice will be heard. :)


Your voices ARE heard, we keep on repeating that in each topic where something is addressed to that matter. But somehow we're not taking seriously, it seems, and are doubted. Well I can't help that.  :-\
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Mad_Fred

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Re: Time for some transparancy
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2010, 18:43:08 »

Fred, the fact is that the 'game' isn't finished. I'm sorry, but if someone goes and buys a new car and it won't go above 40mph, you wouldn't expect the maker to say "the engine will be fixed in the next month or so", would you?


Actually I remember mercedes calling back their A-class cause they were prone to tip over and cause potentially lethal accidents, when one swerved too wildly, as 'the moose test'  pointed out. I wonder what the customers of that product posted on mercedes' forum when they discovered this 'bug'?  At least SSE isn't going to kill anyone..   :-\



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Finn700

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Re: Time for some transparancy
« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2010, 19:12:10 »

Funnily enough I drove merc a-class for some 2-3 years, but that was years and years ago :)
But after the moose test though.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2010, 19:13:59 by Finn700 »
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Birder

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Re: Time for some transparancy
« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2010, 19:18:12 »

Thanks for the posts Mad_Fred, i think the biggest disappointment for me is the lack of an appology for those who have made a purchase and a total lack of news when the patch is coming out. It was a week, then just over a week, last I heard it was weeks or even months.

Look at it from our side (The ones who purchased SSE).

We get a game thats not at all as we expect, its has things missing and has many many bugs.

Vstep find time to put up news of a campaign video to get more sales but not tell us whats going on.

Ship Simulator Extremes: New Tourist Campaign gameplay video released!
Date posted: 30-08-2010

VSTEP/Paradox today released a new video highlighting the Tourist Tales campaign of Ship Simulator Extremes.

This new gameplay video focuses entirely on the Tourist Tales campaign, which is one of the 3 campaigns in the game. Other campaigns are the "Core campaign" and the "Greenpeace campaign".

The Tourist Tales campaign video is an extensive trailer running at 3:53 seconds, and giving a good impression of some of the missions in the campaign as you captain a luxury cruise ship on a very eventful trip around the world.


In hindsight several people including myself would not have purchased SSE as it is and I find it frustrating to get different messages from staff and moderators in this forum. In fact I feel that some moderators are starting to get peeed off with forum members.

Lets face facts, it should be Vstep who tells us whats going on not forum moderators. As to the staff member who said "we deliberately made it low quality to avoid upsetting nautis customers", well that says it all,

When i purchased SSE i had never heard of Nautis and just wanted a simulator

To moderators, if i have said anything to offend then I say sorry, but to Vstep, I truly hope Nautis uses different quality testing systems.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2010, 19:25:39 by Birder »
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Finn700

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Re: Time for some transparancy
« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2010, 19:51:51 »

Your voices ARE heard, we keep on repeating that in each topic where something is addressed to that matter. But somehow we're not taking seriously, it seems, and are doubted. Well I can't help that.  :-\
This is the actual point :)
We really can't be sure what is going on, simple updated Bug B Gone list would be nice, like plain html listing in short description what is noted up and also when something is really fixed up to next patch, like
"Tourist campaign mission 1 : Orient Star sinking when closing by", Or
"Tourist campaign mission 2: Second AI controlled Sherpa sinking at mission start". Patched in next release.
etc.
Both occasional real bugs btw :)
« Last Edit: September 10, 2010, 19:53:41 by Finn700 »
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Mad_Fred

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Re: Time for some transparancy
« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2010, 20:01:56 »

Thanks for the posts Mad_Fred,......


.....different quality testing systems.

You're welcome.  :thumbs:

Well I do wish to repeat, that sometimes you simple CAN'T say anything to the public yet, because sometimes when you develop something totally new, you're in uncharted territory and the outcome isn't always clear or predictable.

And during the development or the fixing of bugs, you can't always be sure it's all in order till the very last. Disclosing any info in the mean time can seriously further dissappoint customers, who then also come to rely on such feedback and expect it to all be sorted by a certain date.

It's just not always as straight forward as it seems. And then it's best not to say anything till you're sure of it. But this does mean that people wonder.. and speculate.. and well... want answers. And I fully understand that.

But in fact, the forum staff is here to act as a medium between Vstep and the forum users, so it IS meant to be partially this way. Even though obviously Vstep posts  a fair ammount of info too, moderators post the rest and make Vstep aware of the thoughts and wishes of the public, and tries to inform the public of what little they sometimes can divulge.. This is cause we're in direct contact and also assist with testing. Which btw is a fine process, quality wise, and there's little that escapes the attention of the testers, but good testing doesn't magically also fix those things that were found, if those are unforseen problems without an easy fix, due to the game being a 100% built-from-the-ground-up new product. If you know what I mean.

And the advertising campaign for the game has nothing to do with the developement side or the testing side. So yeah, they take time to post another video, but if there isn't some 100% certain sure info about a patch that is watertight, then they won't tell you what's going on with that yet, simply because, it's too early to tell specific things about it. Or else things might not go as planned and we'll have another 'but they said so and so, and now it's not there!' topic on our hands ..So it is sometimes a matter of 'damned if you do, damned if you don't'  ;)
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Mad_Fred

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Re: Time for some transparancy
« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2010, 20:04:16 »

This is the actual point :)
We really can't be sure what is going on, simple updated Bug B Gone list would be nice, like plain html listing in short description what is noted up and also when something is really fixed up to next patch, like
"Tourist campaign mission 1 : Orient Star sinking when closing by", Or
"Tourist campaign mission 2: Second AI controlled Sherpa sinking at mission start". Patched in next release.
etc.
Both occasional real bugs btw :)



Again, that confirmation comes in the changelog with such a patch.

You can't always tell till it's very late in the day.. so what if it's posted to be fixed.. and then another tester duplicates the bug anyway, so they didn't manage to fix it..  (stupid example, but still)

Then people will have a problem with that again.

As I said.. listing them to get new members to stop posting new topics a bout the same known fact is perhaps a good idea.

But keeping the public informed about the status of the ongoing beta testing is not really an obligation, and more hassle than the time spent on that is worth. That time should be spent actually fixing and texting the bugs!  ;)
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marcstrat

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Re: Time for some transparancy
« Reply #19 on: September 10, 2010, 20:43:29 »

Greetings,
Well, some of you must allready know that we realy taking care on what you post on this forum.If there are problems with something,you can be helped by the technical board,or when its to complicated we send it to V-Step.
Like i said before,the 2008 version had also troubles in the beginning.To Stuart2007,you want to waith for extra updates for the 2008 version,i think V-step is now focussing on the Extreme version,there are peoblems enough to solve.
I also dont know if they gonna keep the 2008 version more up to date.The new standard for the game has become the Extreme version and his graphics.The 2008 version was just most of the wishlist,which came out of the 2006 version.
To bad that the Extreme version has many problems,it started direct with the release.Things went wrong logistics.This was not realy V-Steps fault.The game itself,well, there has to be alot of work needed to be done.I agree!
About release dates for patches,i'm not realy a pro for release dates at all.This will all the time end up with members,which will complain about anything.Specialy when a releasedate has to be deleyed again for some reason.
Regards
Marc
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osterob

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Re: Time for some transparancy
« Reply #20 on: September 11, 2010, 01:10:30 »

First let me say that I appreciate the moderators frequent posts regarding technical issues and their assistance with any issues. However, I feel the fact that there is so much disbelief in what you all post is due to the fact that your only affiliation with VSTEP is that you are volunteer moderators.

While your duties as moderators cause you to interact with VSTEP more than the common forum member and I'm sure you are repeating what is told to you by VSTEP, you are not VSTEP. People want the company that made the game to acknowledge the bugs, tell them whats happening with it, and what direction they are taking it. Only then will the common forum member take it as the truth. While what you say may be the truth, until it comes directly from VSTEP many may consider it hearsay or speculation.

On most other official game forums I frequent the moderators are made out to be representatives of the company and it is assumed they are in their employ. If they are not they do a good job of hiding it. This forum is different in that it is well known that you are all volunteers.

So in my opinion, until VSTEP starts acknowledging these things or starts moderating their forum you will always have the issue of disbelief.

All the bugs, problems, and lack of content aside, I've been having a blast with SSE.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2010, 02:31:49 by osterob »
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Trek

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Re: Time for some transparancy
« Reply #21 on: September 11, 2010, 05:09:44 »

Gotta take the good with the bad, just the nature of the beast.

 SSE is a train wreck online and awesome offline.

 Hope the bug fixes are actual.
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marcstrat

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Re: Time for some transparancy
« Reply #22 on: September 11, 2010, 06:23:46 »

@ osterob,
Yes, you're maybe right that some forums of other company's are runned by their own people.This can be truth for company's like microsoft and more of that kind.
Why,when we put something on the forum is it sometimes called speculation?Well,members realy start the speculation,not us.If we put something on the forum,it comes from V-step.We cannot make something up ourselfs.Somethings we can put on the forum,others things not,or by later time.
As far as i know as a mod,V-step is honnest and open to us,and i'm a mod for 4 years.
What members do is,we start something(topic about a item)for example,and later on you should read what the members make out of it.Than we have to correct that message again.
We as mods have many times direct contact with V-steps employes,when their is something going on.
Believe me when one of us put something here,there is a background support for it,others ways we can't do that.
Regards
Marc
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Osprey

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Re: Time for some transparancy
« Reply #23 on: September 11, 2010, 10:07:50 »

I really appreciate the work of the moderators and try to say so when I write notes to one of them.

It seems to me that the fundamental thing the COMPANY needs to do is to post a "known bugs" list with a promise that they are being looked at.   Change the list as bugs come and go.   Do no more than that.

The second thing the Company already does.  When it releases an update it says what is in it.

The moderators can tag the known bugs list on the top of the SSE Forum "General Discussions" page just as other things are so tagged and prioritized.

Simple, easy, cheap.   And worth hundreds of thousands of dollars in future sales.  Customer relations are all.
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(Osprey)

marcstrat

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Re: Time for some transparancy
« Reply #24 on: September 11, 2010, 10:30:01 »

Hoy Richard,
Well, there is a buglisting direct to Vstep.
They made one in the 2008 version to.So this way they get updated.Then they look at it on dayly basses,to solve the problems.When they have several bugs and errors fixed,they make a patch,so more than one thing get in order.
Member do post their problems here to,so that s also an extra list for them.Here on this forum is every day someone from Vstep looking around to.
Marc
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