Time for some transparancy

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[Birder]

As i have said before I also race iRacing, this is a racing sim that is very professional in the way it does things. I also Race Live for Speed (LFS) and run one of the largest teams (conedodgers.com).

Compare the 2 sims,

iRacing release patches every 3 months, they also release small fix patches all the time, as soon as you login it tells you "New update to download" with a link. Most of my team now race iRacing.

The iRacing forum has very few moans about updates or patches as their members are well aware when they are coming. I would say that posts chasing patches is about 1%

LFS releases patches when its ready, and in fact have lost 1000's of users because they have not kept to their dates. They will never give a date, just saying "its ready when its ready" and most of my team have lost faith.

The LFS forum is full of moans and arguments about when the patch will come. I would say that posts chasing "The patch" is about 60% or even higher.

So its simple, Patch the game on a regular date and release whats fixed and new content, that way the moans will drop dramatically and customers feel satisfied. The reason, well there is no point in asking when its coming out.

Little and often will fix the current SSE situation and give users some faith back.

Saying you cant say when is just an excuse, there is no doubt that some of the bugs have been fixed so patch them as soon as they are fixed in a mini patch, In these early days once a month would be acceptable to all i think, then make it every 3 months, that way all this bad feeling will go away.

As to volunteer moderators, all we can say it thanks for trying, but being the excuse for Vstep is not your job and I agree with others that a Vstep staff member should post whats going on, after all they took our money so we have a right to ask

[Finn700]

More or less of off-topic:
LFS has one independent developer (literally means one person) to keep it up to date and it's unclear do we ever see Scirocco, ROC or S3.
iRacing is made by company of dozens of emploees, some of those have even been in the business since the first true computer sims were made, so comparing those two isn't so fair.
Also to play iRacing you have to pay some $14 monthly even if you do not race at all, while with LFS you get all the future patches free (until the next major version change).

[mvsmith]

The concept of a simple patch, as in the Dear Dead Dos, does not apply to complex programs today.
SS is “Patched” by replacing entire modules rather than just the odd byte. Because of the potential for unforeseen problems, such updates must be extensively tested prior to release.
It is therefore not feasible to go through that lengthy process for each individual fix. Updates are released when a number of fixes have been tested.
It is not possible to know when an update can be released until it is ready to be released.

[Mad_Fred]

LFS has one independent developer (literally means one person)

I haven't been there in ages, what happened to the other 2 guys?

[Finn700]

I haven't been there in ages, what happened to the other 2 guys?

with one developer I mean one programmer (Scawen), the other two guys are still in.

[Birder]

More or less of off-topic:
LFS has one independent developer (literally means one person) to keep it up to date and it's unclear do we ever see Scirocco, ROC or S3.
iRacing is made by company of dozens of emploees, some of those have even been in the business since the first true computer sims were made, so comparing those two isn't so fair.

iRacing is therefore like vStep, and LFS still has 3 developers

iRacing is patched by replacing modules and LFS by a replacement .exe

Both are at least as complex as SSE in my opinion, and if what you say is true (mvsmith) then the moans will keep on coming.  

[mvsmith]

Moans are expected from some, tiresome, repetitive, and largely uninformed as they are. They are less likely to be noticed the more they are repeated.

[Mad_Fred]

with one developer I mean one programmer (Scawen), the other two guys are still in.

Well they are all devs though. 

[Osprey]

Marc

I am not saying moderators or folk like you need to post a list of bugs and move it to the top of the General Discussion list.

I am saying that the Bug List itself, non-interactive, no comments allowed, can be easily posted once a week by a staffer.   A simple NOTE or LIST cut and paste into a priority note into the SSE General Forum.

Again - worth a million bucks - and involves virtually no time.  A status report.   Not a promise to fix or an agenda to fix.  Just what is broke and how that changes week by week.

I have moderated Forums of considerable size and know that lots of time can be wasted talking about what should be done rather than simply doing it.   I think this should be simply done.

[marcstrat]

Well, thats something that Vstep has to decide,not us.
Making that list will also create extra complaints,believe me.The reason some will find that one problem should be taken care of first,instead of another problem.
So,what i mean is that a problem that mister A had announced,can be found more urgent than the problem mister B had found in the game,or visa versa.Believe me this is what will happen here,i'm around for some 4 years.

Like i said,its not on us,however we report the bugs to main office,and Vstep is reading this forum to.It is allready seen by them.
Regards
Marc

[mvsmith]

Hi Osprey,

I think it would serve no useful purpose beyond providing more ammunition for the ranters.

There is a perception that the users are discovering “bugs” that escaped notice by testers, while there are complaints that SSE was released with known bugs. They want to have it both ways: The testers were incompetent or non-existent / VSTEP knowingly released a bug-ridden product. It’s more fun if you can tar everybody.
 
It has been repeatedly stated that there are known bugs, and that they will be corrected. It has been stated that VSTEP had no viable option in releasing on the date promised to the publisher. All of this falls on deaf ears, and the same rants are repeated over and over.
 
The existing “bug list” is the bug tracker. It is hardly in a form that can, without much effort, be published.
One could, I suppose, give everyone access to the bug tracker, either in a read-only mode, or with write privilege, which would be a lot more fun. Seriously, the bug tracker contains more than simple bug descriptions, and can be misinterpreted. Collecting NDAs from everyone on the forum might take a while.

Knowing what bugs exist is of little use, because they make themselves known. If there were a list, there would be constant demands to say when this, or that, bug would be fixed.

Regards,
Marty

Another option would be to simply create a “Bug List” board and let the users describe the bugs as they find them. That should be an instructive exercise for them. It would also be their very own list. It would not be some bogus, incomplete list by a nefarious VSTEP or their corrupt Moderator toadies.

[Stuart2007]

Gees, Fred... I'm not interested in a Merc A class (all I know is their OM904 engines are giving me far more headaches than stella and paracetamol taken together with vodka)....

I do want to register a complaint though about SSE, which I have not yet bought or tried at all.... But I figure if I complain now in advance of whatever I might or might not find later on then my complaint might or might not have been ignored long before I might or might not have considered buying sse.

[Mad_Fred]

You may or may not have a good point there, Stu! 

[Cloud]

Just want to add two cents here and I know this isn't something that hasn't been expressed already, but as a strong and enthusiastic supporter of the Ship Sim Franchise from Day 1 (yes i've bought every release and addon to date), I am very upset with the quality of what has been released in this latest version of the program.

Can VSTEP honestly pass the red face test and say that Extremes is a product that they have thoroughly tested and felt was a product ready for release? There are so many issues and problems at this point, i won't even get into the multiplayer situation, odd damage model, funky physics modeling, again the lack of environmental influence on the vessels or the missing editor (which is coming). I can't believe VSTEP could proudly stand behind the product in this form. Seriously?

I really really expect more at this point, not the least bit because VSTEP produce Professional grade simulator software and this is the third release of this program, the graphics are beautiful ok, now please lets get the rest of it working and take your time about it.

I hate writing these kind of posts, most of all because as a professional mariner I really really want this to be good program and i really really want to be supportive of VSTEP in achieving this....but at this point i feel taken advantage of!  

Cheers,
cloud

ps - Marcstrat, Stuart; good to see you guys are still around!

[mvsmith]

Hi Cloud,
Just to clear up one point: SSE was thoroughly tested.
It was released with known bugs because VSTEP had no choice. They had promised the publisher an unrealistic release date.

SSE was a big departure from the architecture of previous versions. There was little to guide VSTEP in estimating the difficulties and the time required. VSTEP has always intended to release fixes as soon as possible.
In the meantime, users have the game to get familiar with its new GUI and paradigms, and to find out whether it will run on their computers. I think it is to their advantage to be able to do those things now rather than three or four months hence.

Regards,
Marty

[Cloud]

Hi Marty,

Thanks for your reply. I fully respect your view and the points you are making. To be sure VSTEP are not alone in an industry that all too often releases incomplete or buggy programs due to commercial pressure.

I don't want to get into a painful debate here, I think many of us are in the same place and just care to see a great product; just to say that yielding to commercial pressure at your customer's expense is not a sustainable business model in the long term.

At this point I suspect many committed ship sim enthusiasts have cast their commercial vote favorably by making a purchase, and now have to trust that VSTEPs will sustain its commitment to eventually deliver the product it intended to deliver in the face of a gradually declining revenue stream.

Given an alternative shipsimulator product; I'm not sure at this point that i'd take another gamble with VSTEP in a future release....but for now, I will quietly wait and hope that VSTEP will remain committed to their product over the next 3-4 months.

Anyway...don't get me wrong, I understand what you are saying, I'm hoping for the best, but just disappointed because I've seen this movie before. Believe me, what i want to be posting here is how awesome the product is and talk about the finer points of how well this home simulator models shiphandling and the marine environment....someday soon hopefully.  

Cheers,
Cloud

[Birder]

In the meantime, users have the game to get familiar with its new GUI and paradigms, and to find out whether it will run on their computers. I think it is to their advantage to be able to do those things now rather than three or four months hence.

But Marty this can be done with a demo, if Vstep had put out a Demo i would not have purchased the game.

We have spoken about this by PM and from what you have explained to me, and I 100% believe you, the bugs were found by the beta testers and sent to Vstep and Vstep simply had no time to fix it due to the release date.

In that case Vstep are 100% to blame and as i have said they should officially say sorry and tell us when the patch will be release, if the patch is going to be weeks or even months away then they should offer a full refund.

Also i think your post could be taken as you saying that the patch is three or four months away when others moderators have said a week and a few weeks.

I would maintain that until a patch date is officially released, its best to say, and users to assume, that there is no patch coming as then there can be no arguments.

I think Cloud's post says it all and just how let down even the most loyal feel, he even says he may not "Gamble" with Vstep. Well for some like me its the first time we have tried a Vstep sim and SSE is hugely defective and even though the forum support is great, official support is non-exsistant

Once again i say thanks for trying.

[marcstrat]

@Binder,
Vstep is not to blame,because of the release date.This date is set by the publishers,the sooner the game can be released,the sooner they get money.This is what we try to get in your head.
Once a date has been set,it is hard to delay it again,because it was once delayed before.
I find it very cheap to point a 1 party alone.
Marc

[sadsid (†2016)]

Hi All
Personally all this were to blame there to blame is getting a bit boring to read its all same
stuff different gravy
Yes the game needs sorting we know that from the amount of posts saying the same thing
People are not happy we now that from Guess the same amount of posts saying the same thing
Answer Blame The moderator's Blame the beta testers Blame V-Step in Fact why don't we blame
god for not giving them the powers to forsee all this in the first place.

V-Step is a company that make a game for profit there is no profit in unhappy customers they
have come on this forum and said that they will do there best to get it right .
But still I am reading page's of the same IF THE LORD GOD HIMSELF promised to fix it now someone
would come on the forum to ask why he did not do it yesterday.

                                                                                            Eric

Happy now rant over  

[Birder]

I dont think blaming God is in good taste or warranted , so lets hope that was just a joke  .

Sadsid, Marcstrat, Marty and all the Moderators:

Firstly i am not pointing at one person, and nor are the many others complaining. The Moderators seem to do a good job keeping calm (Well almost) when they no doubt want to explode. The Moderators on the one hand sign to say they will not tell the forum or others whats going on, about testing etc. Yet they are our only contact with the developers.

Its rather silly to blame the publishers, no doubt they chased Vstep for a compleation date to release and no doubt Vstep gave them one. No doubt its all down to making money.

If they could not do it in time they should have said so, not just released it as they did.

a) The Moderators are not to blame, they are just trying to wade through the pile of crap they have been dropped in, some are taking it personal when the comments are to a forum, others are having a rant just as many moderators do.
b) The Beta testers are not to blame as they told Vstep what bugs there are in advance to release, and i understand that there have been very few (if any) new bugs found. I understand that beta testers informed Vstep the product was not ready
c) The publishers are just a sales agent who went on what they were told

marcstrat: You are not trying to say that they plucked a release date out of thin air and told Vstep when it had to be ready - come on they must have asked

So its Vstep that is to blame and no one else,

however users such as me cannot get any answer from Vstep either direct using the form on the website, in this forum or via the email address on the website. The only way you can get them to answer is to place an order and thats an automatic email.

Basically to Vstep we dont exist, they have taken our money and gone to ground.

I purchased SSE from Vstep so no publiser was involved and they did not say and have never admitted that the game has any faults or will be fixed, Moderaters in the forum have, saying it will be a week, a few weeks, and 3 to 4 months but you have gone to great lengths to say that you are not Vstep.

[sadsid (†2016)]

Hi
It was ment as a joke I apologize if offends that was not my intention
                                                                                          Eric

[Birder]

Hi

I thought it was, so no offence taken, well not be me anyway.

Thanks for posting

[mvsmith]

Birder,

As in many other instances, you have failed to understand what you have read. My reference to 3 or 4 months had nothing to do with a patch release. It was in reference to a more realistic release date that VSTEP could or should have given to the publisher in the first place.

You seem bent upon either ignoring or distorting everything that has been explained in order to continue your tirade. Since you say the same thing over and over, it is hard not to believe that your main interest is in stirring up trouble rather than a sincere desire for a resolution to the problems.
You sound more and more like a troll with each post.

[marcstrat]

Well, the repairs can be taken a few weeks, maybe months.We dont have a look at that.The only thing we know is that Vstep will inform us a little before.
We also dont know what error(r)and bugs will taken care of first,unless a few day's before of that patch.
I also hope they DONT put any releasedate infront anymore to.Not even for the patches!!!!
Just sitback, waith and see.
One thing i know is that before the patch going in,there will be testing again by the beta-testers.So that also takes a while.
Marc

[Subwolf]

Hey, this is going in a bad direction. There's about to become a frontline between moderators and users in these forums, not good at all. In my opinion moderators should get less involved in these discussions as long as there are no personal attacks.

There's nothing wrong with Birder's posts, he hasn't broken any rules, he simply expresses his opinion, and I support his opinion 100%. When a moderator indicates that they are posts of a troll it upsets me.

The fact is that many of us feel ripped off and want our money back, simple as that. Will Vstep offer a refund? I doubt it, but at least they should show up in these forums and tell customers what's going on. That's actually something we expect when they've sold an unfinished or broken product. That is normal in any business. Using a volunteer moderator to tell us that repairs will come in a few weeks is far from good enough.