Topic: Bugsier Tutorial (Read 9735 times)

Breakr255 · « **on:** March 29, 2008, 08:14:42 »

Have the developers posted any type of tutorial for the Bugsier 2 tugboat. I believe they are Azimuth Drive tugs but are the drives placed near the bow or stern. Knowing their placement might give us all a better understanding of the way to maneuver it. It seemed as though the the Ocean Star took a while to figure out as well. So if anyone sees tutorials or vessel diagrams, please post them. I looked at the tug that it was modeled after but the controls are quite different.

Also, how do you go about making "skins" for vessels so you can apply your own design? thanks

simondr · « **Reply #1 on:** March 29, 2008, 08:45:41 »

They are both forward of midships as you can see in the images here http://www.simondr.co.uk/stuff/wip/bugsier.html

Simon.

SirXpression · « **Reply #2 on:** March 29, 2008, 09:37:39 »

the bug2 is a great little tug and shouldnt take that much working out...it took me all of...10 seconds doing the first mission with the bug2...shes a lovely handing vessle...and VERY powerful...(as i would hope being that she has a 64tonne bollard pull)

Bottman · « **Reply #3 on:** March 29, 2008, 11:25:20 »

There are some first videos about the "Bugsier 2" and it's manoeuvrebility posted here, but unfortunately the quality of the video isn't very good. I don't know why, because former videos have been fine...

B2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFa1h8CFd7M
B2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaDziUHPpFA
B2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-itBS68LTIs
B2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljvK4Mazb0w

You may look at the overlay controls here. I'm using precision steering. If I find a solution for a better quality, I'll make some with English descriptions too.

Jayshum · « **Reply #4 on:** March 29, 2008, 22:10:11 »

I performed a crude bollard pull test today. 2 Bugsiers, vs a Sherpa. Bugsier 2's bollard pull is 63 tons. Fairmount Sherpa has a bollard pull of 205, but I had a hunch that 2 Bugsiers would be a close match in a 'tug-of-war'. I tied the B2s to each other, then connected them to the Sherpa. Placing them all on full ahead, I soon found myself laughing at how the B2's were pulling the Sherpa at a good 9knts! I'd say that in my opinion, the Bugsier 2 has a Bollard Pull of about double what it is in real life. This is good in my opinion though, as it works best for towing in the game. Still funny though.

trains · « **Reply #5 on:** March 30, 2008, 01:48:45 »

Quote from: simondr on March 29, 2008, 08:45:41

They are both forward of midships as you can see in the images here http://www.simondr.co.uk/stuff/wip/bugsier.html

Simon.

got any more ships from the game on this site?

SirXpression · « **Reply #6 on:** March 30, 2008, 08:18:43 »

they are not for "this game" they were built for Virtual Sailor.

and they were all not bad apart from waverley which felt abit small..

pigdog · « **Reply #7 on:** March 30, 2008, 11:25:50 »

Does anyone know what the score is with the arcade azimuth steering check box and what key/joystick/controller combinations people are using for it.

I'm using the controller i built myself with real ship controls which has seperate throttle controls and seperate left and right steering controls but when it's in Arcade mode when I turn the left steering control L/R the revs on the left engine increase and when I put the wheel midships the revs decrease.

When I use the right steering control it moves L/R but the engine revs stay at 0 and my throttle controls are disabled, is this right or is it a problem.

when I'm not in arcade mode I have use of L/R throttles Both steering controls but they only turn slightly about 25 degrees total and when you turn them both to the left they flip round violently so you end up with one ahead and one astern.

Anybody got any thoughts, I've tried it with red jet 4 and the steering and engine controls are fine it just seems to be the azimuth drive ships.

CaptainMike1 · « **Reply #8 on:** March 30, 2008, 11:37:27 »

Good question, I have the same problem with a logitech game pad??

pigdog · « **Reply #9 on:** March 30, 2008, 11:56:44 »

I've tried every different combination of engine and rudder but it just isn't logical, where you think it should go it doesn't as I've also found out that when you go from ahead to astern just using the throttles the pod turns round the other way which means your steering is now in the opposite direction to which it needs to be (that is with arcade mode off)

With arcade mode on it makes even less sense.

tugboat · « **Reply #10 on:** March 30, 2008, 20:33:38 »

Hi
Many questions but the azimuth propulsion is very simpel to use.If you want the B2 to go ahead simply increase forward pitch and keep the white arrows pointing backwards.If you wants to stop reduce pitch and turn the azimuths 180 degrees so the white arrows point oposite of the way B2 is going.Pitch up and it will stop in a ship length(give or take).If you want B2 to move sidways, say to stb,Make port azimuth controller Face 45 degrees to the port from the bow so the propeller currant push B2 astern and to stb.Stb controller should be in 45 degrees to port counted from stern of B2 and propeller currant should push to the port and forward.The picht you would use is up to you ,but more pitch, should give quicker respone and sideways speed.You just use the oposite controller to counter act the movements of port azimuth since in this exsample we where suppose to have srb side to the quay
I use a mouse to controle heading of the azimuths and arrow up and down to controle pitch and offcourse the pitch only range from 0 to 100% in the green area.

Good luck if anything of this makes sence

Regds
Morten

pigdog · « **Reply #11 on:** March 31, 2008, 09:23:10 »

Thanks for that Morten,

I understand how the Azimuth tug works and how to control them I've worked on one, but in the game and the control setup I'm using it's impossible to use the steering controls it only steers if you use the keyboard and mouse but you don't control a real tug with a keyboard and mouse so my controller that I spent age's making is useless.

You have to have precision steering on which again effects the throttle controls and some other problems that don't make any sense at all so is there a problem with the design of the game in arcade mode, does anyone that uses a joystick have a similar problem? if so we should inform the developers so it can be sorted out.

CaptainMike1 · « **Reply #12 on:** March 31, 2008, 09:44:47 »

Pigdog

I agree with you entirely, if you are using a joystick then you should, as in real life be able to move the joystick for instance at an angle of 22.5 deg to port and the tug should go in that direction, the forward/reverse/sideways thrust should surely be linked. I seem to remember that on ships controlled by a joystick is was called 'point and go' ??

Rgds

Mike

pigdog · « **Reply #13 on:** March 31, 2008, 11:18:30 »

Thats right mike, you can have a joystick that will control both engines (rpm) and basic position of the pods usually by pushing the stick fwd, aft, left or right and then by twisting the top or hat switch you can control the steering.
The type I used was called a "lipstick" (as that was the manufacturer's name I think Lips) although it was more trouble than it's worth and if you were using it with your fire monitors it took the power away from the fire pumps so you ended up with a dribble coming from the monitors not ideal really.

My problem here within the game is my controller is unable to work correctly with the B2 when I'm in or out of precission steering as I'm using real ships controls here is the post that shows what I'm using and an outline of how I built them

http://www.shipsim.com/ShipSimForum/index.php/topic,4505.0.html

I've had to use the thruster controls for steering as the wheels don't work correctly with the B2 and I have to have precision steering on which effects the throttles when I engage the throttle into ahead on the first setting the throttle in the game just keeps going up till it's full ahead.

It's so annoying I can control it fine with the keyboard but I built the controller so I didn't have to use the keyboard for a little more realism, but thats gone out the window now.

Bottman · « **Reply #14 on:** March 31, 2008, 15:49:06 »

I prefer precision steering with the keyboard until I get a real 360 degree turnable joystick as used aboard! Everything else isn't realistic at all, so my "B2" obeys my keys and that's enough for now!

Regard

pigdog · « **Reply #15 on:** April 01, 2008, 08:39:24 »

That will be expensive I guess bottman, I looked into buying two azimuth controls when building my controller they cost over Â£200 each and theres not many second hand ones about on the market.

I do think however something is not quite right with the azimuth controls in the game and the interface with joysticks, gamepads or other controllers either in arcade mode or not.

As I said before it works ok on the keyboard, but not very realistic at least with two joysticks you would get closer to the realism of handling the B2.

Jayshum · « **Reply #16 on:** April 01, 2008, 08:59:36 »

I've set mine up to work just fine with my xbox 360 pad, but I've got the steering for both units on the one stick. There appears to be a bit of a glitch I've noticed (I think it's been covered here though already). When I put the units too hard left or right, the Engines increase to maximum (250 RPM) and stick there, very weird!

pigdog · « **Reply #17 on:** April 01, 2008, 10:54:32 »

Yes I think it is a joystick/controller problem maybe not acting correctly with the commands as the pods seem to do strange things however you set them up, one possible soloution would be to have the ability to have precision steering and precision engines on a seperate tick box that would overcome some of the problem, but not an easy fix.

Yes mine too stick at full revs but only the port unit even if I assign both engines to one control lever it's a bit wierd.

pigdog · « **Reply #18 on:** April 06, 2008, 16:07:03 »

Ok I have tried everything now over the past week to get the B2 to handle correctly with my controller and nothing seems to work.

I am convinced there may be a problem in how the steering has been set up for the B2, if not then why would you not have the same control range as you do with the Red Eagle (this has nothing to do with different propulsion systems!) but how the commands have been written for the game.

On the Red Eagle if you turn your steering controller (be it a joy stick or whatever) from midships (ahead) to hard over to port the steering needle will move until facing the opposite direction (astern) which should be the same for the B2 I don't understand why it isn't.
When precision steering and arcade mode are off you should be able to control it as above, it seems they have tried to cut out the movement from ahead to astern by making it jump from either position but not allowed for the steering angle correction so when you want to go astern your pod controls are reversed from their ahead position which means they are the wrong way round and when you try to go to steer astern it jumps back to ahead again.

Basically when you have arcade mode and precision steering off you should be able to move your steering contol the same as the red eagle, at the moment it only goes to a shallow angle when ahead and totally the wrong way when you want to go astern.

I was really looking forward to the B2 being released out of all the ships within the game but I'm finding it a real disapointment due to the handling issues with it, I built my controller with this type of propulsion system in mind but when they designed the new contol commands for the B2 I don't think they've taken the logical approach it seems set up for keyboard use only as thats the only way to control it with any degree of satisfaction but lacking in realism.

mvsmith · « **Reply #19 on:** April 06, 2008, 18:27:43 »

Pigdog,
You should not confuse a VSP with the various types of azimuthing propellers. The operating principles are vastly different. Red Eagle is much easier to maneuver because it is not necessary to rotate propellers to face different directions. The direction of thrust of a VSP can change nearly instantaneously, but the response is deliberately slowed to avoid dangerous stress.
Also, because the VSP blades always turn in the same direction, there is no confusion between â€œpusherâ€ and â€œpullerâ€ mode or between forward and reverse throttle.
Marty

Although the bug is a good tug, perhaps a better choice at this stage would have been a Voith Water Tractor because it would be easier for most players to handle.

pigdog · « **Reply #20 on:** April 06, 2008, 23:44:48 »

Thanks for that Marty,

I'm not confused about the difference between the propulsion systems, I did say in my post that

Quote

(this has nothing to do with different propulsion systems!)

I have worked on vessels with both types of these propulsion systems and schottol and voith tractor units and I have a very good understanding of how to handle them and how they operate in the real world, my problem is with the way in which the developers have decided to interpret the control inputs within the game, what I was saying is that it would be more logical and realistic to be able to use the maximum steering angles the same as you have on the red eagle for the B2, as the current set up does not imitate how a pod works on that kind of vessel when using joysticks.

With an azipod tug such as the B2, within the game you should be able to use any key, joystick and or controller to give you the desired helm input (similar to how the Red Eagle's maximum steering input does) this is the problem, it works ok if you use precision steering on the keyboard but when you try to use a controller or 2 joysticks for a little more realism it does not work correctly.
Even if you attatched two azipod controls to your computer it would not let you operate them as you could on the real thing because of the way the controls been implimented in the game.

I would have serious concerns if a real tug allowed you to have full throttle on one pod when you put the port steering control to 90 degrees port or stbd and no thrust at all on the stbd steering control without putting any throttle input on as it is when it is in arcade mode.

or

when you have no arcade mode or precision steering selected as you would for a controller that already is precision steering enabled (as mine is) you can only turn your pods 10 degrees port or stbd when going ahead and then it does something completely different when you go astern, from this I would assume that I had a lobster pot wrapped around my units if it done this in real life.

I believe there is a controller issue here, what do you use to control the B2 Marty, do you use 2 joysticks, do you use the keyboard or some other device?
I'd be interested to hear what people are using and if they are encountering any problems especially people who have used these propulsion systems in the real world.

Jayshum · « **Reply #21 on:** April 07, 2008, 12:14:27 »

I like your idea's Pigdog, and I'll even say I agree. I'd love to be able to control both units separately, but can't due to the problems you listed above. Good post.

Traddles · « **Reply #22 on:** April 07, 2008, 16:33:12 »

If you have "New Horizons" there is a manual now already on your computer. Go to the "start menu" -> "Ship Simulator 2008" and you will find an Adobe version to click on which is "Ship Simulator 2008 Add-on manual". It is surprising what you will find there.

Shipaddict · « **Reply #23 on:** April 07, 2008, 16:34:56 »

Odd, I don't seem to have it.

I'll have a hunt

pigdog · « **Reply #24 on:** April 07, 2008, 17:06:12 »

I can't find it either, whats in it?

I've downloaded this version of NH is yours on disc Traddles or download?

Maybe one of the mods could post it up with the rest of the manuals for 2008 on the forum, please.

pigdog

Author Topic: Bugsier Tutorial (Read 9735 times)

mvsmith