Malaysian Airlines MH17

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[Dannypenguin]

I'm sure many of you have seen the news by now, but for those who haven't, Malaysian Airlines flight 17 (aka MH17), a Boeing 777 has crashed in Ukraine, and it is being classed as a possible shootdown. Nobody really knows whats happened here and everyone has denied involvment. More news to follow, however I'm sure you will all be joining me in thinking of the loved one's of those invovled.

Thankyou.

[The Ferry King]

Less than five months after MH370 which we still have no clue about what happened to the 239 on board,

My prayers go out to all those affected by this incident, R.I.P 

[MokMok]

I think this lead to World War Three. Meanwhile, Israel has begun a ground war against Hamas in the Gaza Strip.

My thoughts go those who perished by the aircrash.

[Captain Cadet]

Personly I am amazed that this has happend - I wasn't expecting it. I not going to blame anyone at the moment but at least Obama and Putin are talking about this situation.
RIP MH17 

[Mr Robville]

Terrible tragedy. To think most of these people were on their long awaited vacation, it's sickening. Especially if it turns out the plane was shot down. Not only would that be totaly uneccessary, it also proves there are complete idiots on this world with dangerous equipment at their reach.

I'll be flying from Saigon to Amsterdam this weekend, which is the same direction. I hope the pilot makes a little detour because this makes me a little nervous.

[Dannypenguin]

Not only would that be totaly uneccessary, it also proves there are complete idiots on this world with dangerous equipment at their reach.

Couldn't agree more with you there.

I'll be flying from Saigon to Amsterdam this weekend, which is the same direction. I hope the pilot makes a little detour because this makes me a little nervous.

Pretty much all carriers are now avoiding all Ukrainian airspace. Which airline are you going by?

[Mr Robville]

I believe I'm flying with KLM. Good to hear they now avoid this airspace, even though that should have been done already a year ago in my opinion. Probably a case of the Dutch phrase 'Als het kalf verdronken is, dempt men de put' -in other words- Only after it has gone wrong, measures are taken that should've already been taken to prevent it in the first place.

[Dannypenguin]

Apparently all airspace over Ukraine is now closed. Originally it was closed up to 32,000 ft, however this aircraft was at 33,000 ft. The worst thing is that a Singapore Airlines flight and an Air India flight where only a little way away from it when it crashed.

[GeoP17]

This is really terrible...these people were totally innocent and they died!   Maybe planes must not go over this specific location where everything is...(I can't describe)!! I'm so sorry for those who lost their lives!!! 

[Captain Cadet]

Apparently all airspace over Ukraine is now closed. Originally it was closed up to 32,000 ft, however this aircraft was at 33,000 ft. The worst thing is that a Singapore Airlines flight and an Air India flight where only a little way away from it when it crashed.

It's now closed off it's believed to be the rebels fired at it thinking it was a Ukrainian transport plane. The re less would probobly not be able to detect civilan than military.

This is really terrible...these people were totally innocent and they died!   Maybe planes must not go over this specific location where everything is...(I can't describe)!! I'm so sorry for those who lost their lives!!! 

Where I live there is a plane transceiver in the next field. Planes travel around here but they don't have too. BA and a few others haven't been doing it since the unstablility started.

[Dannypenguin]

Update: There are reports that the black box has been found which is a slight step forward. Unfortunatley there is also a step back in the way that apparently the rebels have taken most of the bodies to an unknown location - there is also reports that the (if true, disgusting) rebels have looted the bodies, however I would hope they would not have sunk to that level of horrbile, petty theft. 

[Mad_Fred]

Officials on the scene had already stated that among the little bits of personal belongings they were allowed to inspect, not a single cell phone, wallet, credit card or piece of jewelry had been recovered.

And well it is a warzone of course, we should not forget that, where untrained rebels are fueled with hatred and vodka, and where dozens of civilians are killed every day, what else would we have expected to happen? Those people are already so very poor, and this war is ruining what little they had. I can almost understand why they would go looting. Not condone mind you, just understand.

On friday they already said they'd found the black boxes, then they were suddenly unsure of where they were. bodies have been messed with, moved around, taken away. Evidence is being destroyed, heck there's even footage of civilians cleaning things up and putting it in farm trailers, whatever it was..  civilians wandered in and out of the crash site, able to mess with everything, no one is really sure who is meant to be there and who is not. The official investigation team from the Netherlands is still not allowed to go to the scene of the crash. it's just a disgrace.

Sure, most civilians are probably good people and there were many people interviewed that were appaled by what happened, but they also say 'Now you people also know what it is like here.'  So we should not forget, these people are living in an area that has seen a lot of atrocities for a while now, with civilians being bombed indiscriminately, among other things. They don't really care that much about a plane full of 'rich' western holidaymakers, when the west turns a blind eye to their suffering and only takes notice when a bunch of their own get killed in the process.

I'm not saying that what is going on with the crash site is not despicable, on the contrary, but the way everyone is reacting to it now, is like everyone has lost their own loved ones in this crash. But before last thursday, no one cared about the Ukranian people on either side of the fence who have been living with this war for quite a while now. And there has been more to it than just the things that had escalated in the media these last few months.

Hopefully this incident will put enough pressure on both sides to come to a mutual and peaceful agreement. But that might be wishful thinking.

[Dannypenguin]

The thing is, if they don't let the inspectors in, if they don't cough up the evidence, people are going to think of them more as a "terrorist" organisation, due to the dis-honesty, etc, I know I certainly will. Although there is no official proof that they shot it down, the more they try and keep the west out, the more I think they did it, and it makes me feel less sorry for them by the minute - call me heartless if you would like but its how I feel.

Of course its not nice for them, and yes they may think we're not reacting - but when Europe tried to quieten the rebels, Putin just threatend to turn the gas off. 

A confusing one to deal with for sure.

[albertjames]

Regarding the dead bodies. I always believed that after a devastating crash they would be completely crushed. Yet many of the photos shows bodies with barely any visible injuries. The majority was probably completely crushed, but atleast 5-10 % seems to have died from far less violent injuries. Such as a single blow to the head or back. It is not completely out of reach to believe at-least 1 out of the 300 dead, had a significant chance of surviving the ground impact. Maybe even did so, only to be hit by falling debris etc.

A few, must also had suffered injuries which, with instant emergency medicare would have survived albeit with great permanent injuries such as paralyzation.

Somehow the thought of that makes it even more heartbreaking.

[Mad_Fred]

The thing is, if they don't let the inspectors in, if they don't cough up the evidence, people are going to think of them more as a "terrorist" organisation, due to the dis-honesty, etc, I know I certainly will. Although there is no official proof that they shot it down, the more they try and keep the west out, the more I think they did it, and it makes me feel less sorry for them by the minute - call me heartless if you would like but its how I feel.

Of course its not nice for them, and yes they may think we're not reacting - but when Europe tried to quieten the rebels, Putin just threatend to turn the gas off. 

A confusing one to deal with for sure.

Oh I agree, but you also have to look at the bigger picture. They are fighting a war. They have other things on their mind, other than letting heaps of foreigners tell them what to do. And to us the plane crash is a disaster, to them it's just another bunch of deaths in this war. They've seen a lot of that lately. Heck, as many people as have died on board MH-17, have been killed in bombings just since this plane crashed, in the last few days. on average 40 to 60 a day die, almost all of them innocent civilians too. And we're asking these 'rebels', to give special consideration to OUR dead? but what about their dead? Not even half of it is reported on the news... 

Both sides feel that they are right in what they are doing, and now they need to listen to outsiders in their own country? Sure I too say they should allow unbiased investigation, obviously, but that's easily said from my comfy chair in a peaceful country. They see it differently, and part of me can't blame them. No one lifted a finger to help them when the Ukranian Air Force bombs their citizens into submission. There's been an awful lot more innocent victims than just these people on board MH17.

[Mad_Fred]

Regarding the dead bodies. I always believed that after a devastating crash they would be completely crushed. Yet many of the photos shows bodies with barely any visible injuries. The majority was probably completely crushed, but atleast 5-10 % seems to have died from far less violent injuries. Such as a single blow to the head or back. It is not completely out of reach to believe at-least 1 out of the 300 dead, had a significant chance of surviving the ground impact. Maybe even did so, only to be hit by falling debris etc.

A few, must also had suffered injuries which, with instant emergency medicare would have survived albeit with great permanent injuries such as paralyzation.

Somehow the thought of that makes it even more heartbreaking.

It all depends on how a plane crashes of course. In this case, eye witness reports say that the plane broke up in mid-air. that means it does not remain it's aerodynamic properties. If a plane dives into the ground intact, under power, at high speed, the damage is far worse and everything can disintergrate. But if a plane breaks up, and it more or less 'flutters' to the ground, with far less of an impact, then a lot can remain recognizable, but it is certainly still enough to kill you, unless you are incredibly lucky. It's all about the internal injuries. They have no doubt reached terminal velocity in their fall, and that is normally simply not survivable.

[Dannypenguin]

Its an odd one and to be fair, I agree with you, but I am sure if it was the other way round they would react just the same as we have.

I am hoping though, for the relatives sake, the bodies are returned to the appropriate countries, I now hear they're in refridgerated train carraiges.

[Captain Cadet]

Falling 32 ft can kill you but 32,000 feet - you probobly would lose contesnus from the lack of air and then the g force - these have not been slowly exposed to the air like a parachute jumper would be - if I am right It is higher than mt everast!
I understand why the locals may loot the bodies - they are in a middle of a war none of them want and they will remeber that for the rest of their lives - if it is the soldiers though which looted the bodies It changes the situation as they are the ones who started the war - the locals are just trapped by others thought - not all of them want to go to Russia!
Also what worries me is where are the bodies getting taken to? They need to be handed over to Ukraine or Russia as they can sort it out - I know They won't listen to Ukraine and Russia is unlikely to do much as that could show they had responsibility.

[The Ferry King]

Falling 32 ft can kill you but 32,000 feet - you probobly would lose contesnus from the lack of air and then the g force - these have not been slowly exposed to the air like a parachute jumper would be - if I am right It is higher than mt everast!
I understand why the locals may loot the bodies

Well there has only been one incident where someone has survived a plane crash falling from 33,000 ft
Vesna Vulović in JAT Flight 367 explosion


Anyway back to topic, I guess there might have been a few survivors but you really have to be lucky to survive such a fall without breaking all the bones in your body..

Well my personal view is, if this site was open access (I.e. Not in the middle of a war zone) we wouldn't be facing such issues, and it's likely to be more difficult with many more people, even right now being killed near Donetsk it's really sad :/

[Mad_Fred]

And if some of these airlines that continued to fly over a warzone, contrary to a number of other airlines who did not take the risk, would not have been so greedy and had just made a 45 minute diversion of their flights, which - according to an estimation - would have only cost them around $66 per passenger, nothing would have even happened.

Sure, the International Air Transport Association might have said it was a safe route, but ultimately it is up to the airlines themselves, whether to fly over a warzone or not, and Russian and Ukranian air traffic control had warned the airlines hours before take off about 'combat activity' in the region. And it was known that several planes had been shot down in the past weeks, even at higher altitudes.

That is why other airlines did not even take this route. So you can blame some trigger happy rebels who just wanted to take revenge on any Ukranian air traffic for the constant bombing of their innocent civilians..

But one might also say that the airline is equally at fault, if not more, for not spending a little bit more money to keep their customers safe. But we know what a life is worth to them now. Roughly 66 dollars.

[Mad_Fred]

Warning, there is mature and very graphic content on the following site, however not on the page I am linking too. But it is not advised to view this website's more graphic or mature content if you are underage or easily shaken by disturbing images.

But, there is little doubt that MH17 was shot down, now that these 'new' pictures had emerged:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=143_1406023233

Clearly one of the pieces, as also shown, is from the cockpit area. There is nothing that can go wrong internally there that would create inward facing damage, nor could any faillure on the plane like an exploding engine, cause such damage in front of where it would happen. So the plane must have been hit with the shrapnel of an exploding SAM.

Of course everyone already sort of knew that, but a picture does tell a thousand words, and I reckon at least that much is clear now without a doubt.

[The Ferry King]

Anyone heard of the plane crash yesterday with 48 killed and the missing plane with 110 today? I'm really hoping this one doesn't turn into a tragedy as well and somehow all of them are found alive

[Dannypenguin]

Hmm, this is turning out to be a particularly bad month for the airline industry

[Mr Robville]

MH17, ATR72, AH5017. What a mess.
Now let's hope those conspiracy people don't see any links between all flight numbers having the nuber 7 in them or something...

[The Ferry King]

MH17, ATR72, AH5017. What a mess.
Now let's hope those conspiracy people don't see any links between all flight numbers having the nuber 7 in them or something...

Well this is even weirder, (pay attention to the number of 7s)
Flight is called MH17
It involved a Boeing 777
It first flew on 17/07/1997
It crashed exactly 17 years later on 17/07/2014

The other 777 lost was flight MH370

ATR 72  and today's possible loss (7 days after MH17) has flight number AH5017

Although i do think the number '17' as you can see is mentioned strangely enough quite a few times!

Not to bring in any conspiracies    
anyway back to topic