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Author Topic: So many Bugs, Come on Vstep.  (Read 13343 times)

Tinchu

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Re: So many Bugs, Come on Vstep.
« Reply #25 on: February 07, 2012, 19:20:00 »

One Global Moderator has pronnounced the "magic sentence". "Ship Simulator Nautis is a development based on Ship Simulator 2008. I've asked about this question several times, and never received a clear answer. Even I remember to read an interview with the CEO of Vstep, and when the journalist asked him about this matter, the answer wasn't really clear. For me here is the heart of the question. Vstep couldn't sell to us new functions and performances, because they would have a conflict with the other customers; the professionals customers; they have paid 4.000,00 € for the product. Imagine their anger if Vstep later sells it`s product as consecutives addons. I'd like to know how Vstep have registered "both products". Is the copyright the same for both products?

There is another embarrassing question: If Ship Simulator 2006 was put on sale first and many months later appeared Ship Simulator 2006 Professional for 245,00 €. And if Ship Simulator 2008 was put on sale again first and a year or year and a half after appeared Ship Simulator 2008 Professional for 4.000,00 €. And if Ship Simulator Extremes was put on sale two years after... Will we see to appear a Ship Simulator Extremes Professional, and of course we won't enjoy it.

Are we the betatesters, the long-suffering users, which are making the frustrating process of testing, paying money for it and at the end other "children" will enjoy the toy? 

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Bottman

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Re: So many Bugs, Come on Vstep.
« Reply #26 on: February 07, 2012, 21:58:10 »

It's a complex story though. The very first Pro version has been nothing more than a flop. Nobody want's to buy it, since it was everything but professional. 2008 has been a stable system, which allows VSTEP to implement the professional requirements. The customers of that system don't want to play, there was no need for an improved mission editor but for loads of very special nautical features whereas SSE was made to relaunch the game with many other gameplay features to a broader clientile. Until now they have developed two pairs of shoes and I can't imagine, that they are willing to transfer SSE to another pro version by now. The intention behind both products is as different as the customers are.
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Bottman

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danny

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Re: So many Bugs, Come on Vstep.
« Reply #27 on: February 07, 2012, 23:11:39 »

Yes, the intentions of NAUTIS are to provide a working peice of software, and the intentions of SSE are to provide a peice of software that barely works on the best of days.

In reply to swenson's post, Why should "we", the end user, provide suggestions when surely Vsteps beta testers should report EVERY SINGLE BUG, so that these can be fixed? Why should "we" go out of our way to make your lives easier when you've dissapointed an awful lot of people?

I will say this though, for once, insted of giving wild estimates for release dates, actually think "can we have this released for X date?". and if you don't meet the release date, actually do something about it. At operation kittyhawk, when someone doesn't meet there deadline without due reason, I make sure they don't do it again. Do you know how many deadlines we've missed since I started "letting people know I was unhappy"?. 1. thats right, we've missed 1 deadline.

Why did Vstep bother to re-make the SSE engine, when, as already stated "SS08 has been a stable system"? Why didn't they just improve on SS08? because of nautis, and the "it will be too proffesional" phrase. Maybe that explains why most, if not all of the users of SSE get little or no tech support from the "tech support staff" (the mods, global mods and mad_fred to a excellent job of providing support though). Because that would be "too proffesonial".
I sincerly hope that IF there is a new SS released, Vstep will actually make a decent SIMULATOR. not "game", a SIMULATOR.
I also notice that neither frank nor pjotr have posted in this topic....
« Last Edit: February 07, 2012, 23:22:27 by danny »
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Kevinmcg_ships

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Re: So many Bugs, Come on Vstep.
« Reply #28 on: February 07, 2012, 23:47:41 »

Who cares? I'm just happy there is a ship simulator game which I can enjoy sailing a ship on my computer and it lets me to be the captain of a vessel for a couple of hours.

As for bugs, name me ONE software which is totally free of bugs and glitches. I've yet to come across which is entitely free of bugs.

I've been using Windows since since 2000 and it always seem to be needing updates/patches every so often to plug vulnerabilities and security holes.

Even before that, I was an Apple user and even Apple needed to issue software updates/patches. I used to get my Apple updates/patches which came with the CD from a Mac magazine (this was in the days of 28k modem internet connection, which meant downloading patches would be very slow and expensive)

And even when I have a Playstation 3, I'm still prompted to check for updates so that fixes/patches can be applied for the game which I've just bought.

So come on, let's give VSTEP a break guys, eh? I think they have achieved a lot in 5 years. Remember they do not have the financial muscle or support like Microsoft sim games had enjoyed for so long time.
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danny

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Re: So many Bugs, Come on Vstep.
« Reply #29 on: February 07, 2012, 23:58:33 »

I'm not saying that ship simulator isn't a great game. It is in nearly every way, i'm just fed up of Vstep leaving its community to rot. Whilst I aggree that no software is free of bugs, most companies out there will work as fast as possible to fix those bugs, whereas vstep seem to release a patch every blue moon.
Take vehical simulator for example, although thats not bug free ilan releases regular bug fixes and updates.
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Sunseekeringo

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Re: So many Bugs, Come on Vstep.
« Reply #30 on: February 08, 2012, 07:20:14 »

Although it is a bit off-topic, I want to mention it because Bottman explained a bit to the professional editions.

I still miss the "simulation" part in SSE. For me it is a nice game but simulate a real seafaring experience is not possible, if I think of navigation, sailing by night with the help of lights.

From a simulator I would have expected this. But we discussed this topic a long time ago in another post, therefore it is a bit off-topic.

cheers
Ingo
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Mad_Fred

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Re: So many Bugs, Come on Vstep.
« Reply #31 on: February 08, 2012, 09:03:56 »

I'm not saying that ship simulator isn't a great game. It is in nearly every way, i'm just fed up of Vstep leaving its community to rot. Whilst I aggree that no software is free of bugs, most companies out there will work as fast as possible to fix those bugs, whereas vstep seem to release a patch every blue moon.
Take vehical simulator for example, although thats not bug free ilan releases regular bug fixes and updates.



You are sick of something that isn't even true? Well than the problem lies with your perception and not with Vstep.  ;D

And sorry to burst your bubble, but you're wrong about most companies throwing all their resources towards bugfixing. This isn't my first ballgame, and my experience tells me it's often the opposite.

And vehicle simulator, I dunno how much you love Ilan, but have you not been around before, when they almost had to BEG him to answer their questions, even?  ::)

It's apples and oranges, and you're wrong about some of the things you assume or guess-and-present-as-factual. You're just saying stuff that's silly, sorry if that sounds like I'm out to get you, it's not, and I understand the frustration, but unless you have some hands on and first hand knowledge, you're really just assuming things that holds no water. You're wrong about Vstep's way of working, about their choices, about why SSE was done the way it's done. Good guesswork, but not realistic.  :)

But you will find that out if  and when you actually would seriously be competing on a market, instead of judging things from the perspective of a hobby project. I've seen MANY of those started and been part of some, and nearly none finished, and it's always because the people underestimate what goes into the 'real deal'. Everyone's a developer these days it seems and with the ready made SDK packages out there all it takes is time and dedication. But that doesn't mean you're also a businessman with the bigger picture and the need to pay the bills, just yet.  ;)

So how far along is the new sim, btw?  :)
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Gernot1971

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Re: So many Bugs, Come on Vstep.
« Reply #32 on: February 08, 2012, 10:56:34 »

Hello gents,

at first i am sorry for my bad english.  ::)

I played this game now over 100 hours. Most time online. One of the biggest problem online is that the server not runs "synchron". If i sail with the "Pride of Jack" (Pride of Rotterdam) at 22 kts, i am faster than another player who sail the Cutter with ~ 30 kts. The other mistake is than the wrong position of my ship for this player. For me i overtake him portside 200 m away and for him my position is ~ 1 nm behind his ship. So it could be that i hit his ship or he is hitting my ship. So the online player is angry against the other player because he think he is hitting from another player but the other player has no chance because on his PC is far enough away.

At last: I play Virtuel Games since the early 80's. First was on "Fairchild Channel F" in Germany SABA Spielekonsole. Early 90's on PC (Green - black Monitor 8) Gato, Falcon 1,0 from Microprose, first Flightsim from Microsoft. Thanks Vstep that you give me a Simulator which give me a lot of fun to play. I hope for the next patch who is eleminate many bugs and so the loyal Player become more fun to play the game.

 :captain: Jack
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danny

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Re: So many Bugs, Come on Vstep.
« Reply #33 on: February 08, 2012, 16:07:43 »

Quote
You are sick of something that isn't even true?
Where did I say I was sick of something? I said I was fed up, not sick.

Quote
but you're wrong about most companies throwing all their resources towards bugfixing
Most companies I've seen have worked as fast as possible to deal with bugs. But again, this is personnal epxerience

Quote
You're wrong about Vstep's way of working, about their choices, about why SSE was done the way it's done. Good guesswork, but not realistic.  Smiley
I don't know the inner workings of Vstep, however, this is how they appear tow work from my (the customers) point of view.

Quote
But you will find that out if  and when you actually would seriously be competing on a market, instead of judging things from the perspective of a hobby project. I've seen MANY of those started and been part of some, and nearly none finished, and it's always because the people underestimate what goes into the 'real deal'. Everyone's a developer these days it seems and with the ready made SDK packages out there all it takes is time and dedication. But that doesn't mean you're also a businessman with the bigger picture and the need to pay the bills, just yet.  Wink
The render engine SS uses (questviewer) is pre-made, so that can be considered a SDK, so can physx, which is a premade physics libary developed by Nvida to work alongside there "cuda" and "agiea" physics chipsets. I'm not a businessman, i'm a 16 year old collage student. I don't desire to be a businessman. I DO have bills to pay, after all, using commercial products requires you to part with cash.

Quote
So how far along is the new sim, btw?
Is moving along as could be expected.

Quote
I dunno how much you love Ilan, but have you not been around before, when they almost had to BEG him to answer their questions, even?  Roll Eyes

I don't know ilan, nor do I inted to. I've heard mixed things about him and his responses to questions, I was mearly using a peice of his software, not the man himself as a comparision. Members of this forum also had to "beg" to get swenson to post indev pics of various DLC's on the forum, insted of just facebook.

Quote
Well than the problem lies with your perception and not with Vstep.
I'm not responsible for creating this mess. Vstep, who develop SSE are. THEY released a game that was, atleast for the first few months, unfit for purpose (in my eyes). THEY are the ones that say "X product will be released on Y date", then don't release it for another 2 weeks! (or more).

Quote
sorry if that sounds like I'm out to get you, it's not,
This is just my personal opinion, but it does sound like your trying to disprove everything I've said, or simply talk down to me. I'm sorry if you don't mean it that way, but thats how it sounds when I read it  :'(

Sorry if this post sounds like I'm attacking you, i'm not, and I would never do that. If anything I admire you for the work you've put in to the forum, especially consdiring you don't get paid for anything you do here.

You are correct in assuming that i'm fustrated with SSE, My AI laggs the game to the point where I get 5fps if i'm lucky, and even using a machine like mine I'd expect to get more than that, wouldn't you?
« Last Edit: February 08, 2012, 16:49:02 by danny »
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Mad_Fred

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Re: So many Bugs, Come on Vstep.
« Reply #34 on: February 08, 2012, 16:47:56 »

Where did I say I was sick of something? I said I was fed up, not sick.

Same difference, the principle of what I said doesn't change because it's a slightly different word.  :)

Most companies I've seen have worked as fast as possible to deal with bugs. But again, this is personnal epxerience.

Well then you haven't seen a broad enough spectrum yet I reckon.  ;)

Of course Vstep does what they can.. it's their product, it's not a sideshow that they can just sacrifice or something, because nautis is bringing in the big number.. that whole string of thought is just not really relevant, it all costs money to make, it all has to return that money and then make some so they can have dinner at night after they lock up. But wether or not companies can throw ALL their resources at it... well that's not always possible even.. that was what I am saying..  but what CAN be done, is done.

I don't know the inner workings of Vstep, however, this is how they appear tow work from my (the customers) point of view..

Yes I understand, but you present some things as facts, which are simply assumptions which are wrong, is what I'm saying.

The render engine SS uses (questviewer) is pre-made, so that can be considered a SDK, so can physx, which is a premade physics libary developed by Nvida to work alongside there "cuda" and "agiea" physics chipsets. I'm not a businessman, i'm a 16 year old collage student whos autistic. I don't desire to be a businessman. I DO have bills to pay, after all, using commercial products requires you to part with cash..

Well it's a bit different from getting, say, unity and messing about a bit with that, trying stuff out, etc..  compared to what Vstep does. But what I am saying is.. there's much more to it than that.

Is moving along as could be expected.

That's good to know.  :thumbs:
 
I don't know ilan, nor do I inted to. I've heard mixed things about him and his responses to questions, I was mearly using a peice of his software, not the man himself as a comparision. Members of this forum also had to "beg" to get swenson to post indev pics of various DLC's on the forum, insted of just facebook.

I'm not responsible for creating this mess. Vstep, who develop SSE are. THEY released a game that was, atleast for the first few months, unfit for purpose (in my eyes). THEY are the ones that say "X product will be released on Y date", then don't release it for another 2 weeks! (or more).
This is just my personal opinion, but it does sound like your trying to disprove everything I've said, or simply talk down to me. I'm sorry if you don't mean it that way, but thats how it sounds when I read it  :'(

Oh I know what you are saying, but you picked them as an example of prompt reaction to the community and decent updates and fixes, and that's not how that game has been, at first it was a very buggy beta too, well their new product pretty much still is, that nonetheless, is sold to people. So in all fairness, they/he didn't get it right all the time either and right away, and the software still is below par to what I would want it to be, honestly. In that sense, the comparison is not really the best one you can make.

And, it's not always as easy as you might think with release dates and such, there's more than just a dev and a game, there's a publisher, distribution, everything else that comes into play, plans made, services arranged, money spent..., is left out of your view there, so you dont have 'the bigger picture', so to speak, from your angle.

And no worries, I wasn't trying to 'disprove' what you said. I am only saying, that most of what your wrote, was just not what is actually going on. And well if you lash out and make claims about vstep letting their customers 'rot', well that is more rude than me telling you that you have made a mistake and are drawing the wrong conclusion, is it not?  ;)

Sorry if this post sounds like I'm attacking you, i'm not, and I would never do that. If anything I admire you for the work you've put in to the forum, especially consdiring you don't get paid for anything you do here.

I know mate, nor I you, but you're getting a little heated and are throwing some ideas around that are not spot on, so I am only trying to interject a little reality.  ;D

You are correct in assuming that i'm annoyed with SSE, My AI laggs the game to the point where I get 5fps if i'm lucky, and even using a machine like mine I'd expect to get more than that, wouldn't you?

Well yes, but I get decent performance myself with a decent machine too..  so, it's not a structural problem for everyone, or I would have the same problems that you have and we would have even more unsolvable problems with some members. But the fact of the matter is that most tech support issues are solved, and in a majority of cases, it's down to the user needing to be a little more careful with this game than other games, or downright user error. You just don't see all the players that - despite obvious bugs - play this game happily and nearly, if not totally, worry-free. This game requires a little more TLC and tweaking to get that running like it should, somtimes.. and yes, that's not ideal and I agree with that side of your argument..  cause not everyone is a tweaker or feels like trying out a dozen different things to make it work.

But still, all in all, apart from the obvious bugs, my game just runs good, I can play all the missions just fine, it's just okay in the way that I play it. (not a great mp fan, that side, I can't comment on too much..)  so, for me, it's not as bad as some games I have bought that are far worse for bugs and have far less developer attention and fixes. It's not a 'mess' to me. Why it is for you, I don't know.
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danny

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Re: So many Bugs, Come on Vstep.
« Reply #35 on: February 08, 2012, 17:30:18 »

As we both have differning points of view on this topic, lets both a agree that SSE still has its bugs, but is in general a great game. Saves arguments that way  :doh:
EDIT:
I wasn't trying to present anything as "fact", it was just my personal opinion, I apologise if it what I said was taken as fact.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2012, 18:56:22 by danny »
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Mad_Fred

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Re: So many Bugs, Come on Vstep.
« Reply #36 on: February 08, 2012, 17:54:23 »

Oh I never disputed that, mate. There are bugs. There are lingering problems that should have been gone by now. I am just telling you that you're points of view are off target, for the most part. Your underlying frustration about the way the game runs for you is totally understandable though, and you'd love to see it different. And believe me, Vstep wants that even more than you want it. And they are not letting the players rot... just because they don't constantly spoonfeed the people pointless WIP screenshots or updates, doesn't mean they aren't going full whack.

Opinions are fine, and a good discussion, well that's what this forum is for, isnt it? But the facts might differ from what people think is going on. And if someone says things in a factual manner, and are wrong about them, well they will be called on that sometimes.  :P



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Tinchu

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Re: So many Bugs, Come on Vstep.
« Reply #37 on: February 09, 2012, 16:35:02 »

Well well... the forum cheers up. That's good. I hope then, SSE be a new line open by VStep; totally separated from SS08 or NAUTIS, and dedicated totally for us; the ship fans. That could explain SSE seem to be a backward respect a SS08 in some aspects. I thought too, the celebration of the contest a year ago be the beginning of a new strategist more open. I suppose after months and months of hard work of VStep professionals SSE will be fixed. Then it would be the moment of it's authentic expansion. We don't need a very high level of engineering as professionals need, but we want many ships, sceneries around the world, a bigger interactivity with the ships (to open the cargo holds, the handling of the cranes, to tune the radio frequencies, etc.). Want or not to want VStep, at the end the Ship Simulator, like any other simulator will need external colaboration; franchise, SDK or any other way.

VStep has had the original idea. They have created the base, the skeleton. But this skeleton will need to be filled. Will they be able to satisfy the huge possibilities and expectations created by Ship Simulator working alone?
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Stuart2007

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Re: So many Bugs, Come on Vstep.
« Reply #38 on: February 13, 2012, 01:31:41 »

Lads,

time will tell on this. If those who are lacking confidence in the credibility of shipsim are wrong, it will be evident by the game being improved.

If on the other hand it either stays the same- or more likely is re-released as some new re-hash (maybe ship sim ultimate) next time pjotr gets a big bill, then we know they are correct.

For my part, I squirm with embaressment and the commercial prowess of vstep. They have chosen, rightly or wrongly, to pursue two wildly different business models at the same time. That is the high volume, low yield game and the low volume high yield simulator. Much is made of the price difference as a means to justify the quite frankly disasterous PR that has followed sse. However, one would wonder when all is said and done, what the actual NETT income is to vstep for each of its products. I would invite you to consider that the "mass" market of sse is actually worth a little more than petty cash figures (even with the charges deducted by paradox).

For those of you who are still young chaps at school and haven't yet seen the nasty world properly, I'm afraid this is par for the cause these days. Companies are just tools to extract money from you as quickly and as much as possible. Some companies give you a damned good service, most are average, but there are too many that really don't think what they are doing!
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ACR

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Re: So many Bugs, Come on Vstep.
« Reply #39 on: February 22, 2012, 02:31:59 »

that whole string of thought is just not really relevant, it all costs money to make, it all has to return that money and then make some so they can have dinner at night after they lock up. But wether or not companies can throw ALL their resources at it... well that's not always possible even.. that was what I am saying..  but what CAN be done, is done.

with other words but straight ahead ... SSE has not brought the financial succes vstep expected and since they have to pay their offices, developers and the personal benefits of the CEO and other "upper" people of the company,  we can expect very little to none resources and financial effords to remove existing bugs , not to dream of any improvents.

in the meantime the moderators are invited to calm down the community for free with the intention to squeeze the last pennys from the basic program and addon ships , right ?

if yes, vstep should move forward and make an announcment that no further developing and improvements will be made and we all have peace.

then they can enjoy dinner payed by the hopes of xxx thousands customers who believed since 2006 that thatkind of software will have a future and vstep is the company who will start a new edge of ship simulation.

tranparency might be here an idea gentlemen !

best regards

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Stuart2007

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Re: So many Bugs, Come on Vstep.
« Reply #40 on: February 22, 2012, 02:56:02 »

I don't think we can presume to know exactly what the outcome for vstep earnings and thus the future of the shipsim game.

We can all make assumptions and guesses- for my part I think their technical knowhow is pretty damned impressive; but their marketing and business model is pretty grim and quite, quite unsustainable.

Every product has a lifecycle; with shipsim you can take the whole series as a whole, or seperately as individual products. Even micromush realised this in the end with flightsim and now development has been terminated; I can really see the peak of sales having already passed and now it is a slow decline for any future issues released.

There again, like everyone else, I'm just giving an opinion that might even, possible, however remote, be wrong.
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Sunseekeringo

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Re: So many Bugs, Come on Vstep.
« Reply #41 on: February 22, 2012, 09:37:59 »

Hi,

does anyone know how many copies of SSE have been sold? Would be really interesting to me because I assume that there are limited numbers of players.

best wishes
Ingo
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joostmansjr

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Re: So many Bugs, Come on Vstep.
« Reply #42 on: February 22, 2012, 14:05:51 »

dear dexter.
you can stop with this game it is working great on my low spec computer.
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VirtualSkipper

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Re: So many Bugs, Come on Vstep.
« Reply #43 on: February 22, 2012, 14:16:45 »

Patch V1.5 has been released!  :2thumbs:
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MokMok

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Re: So many Bugs, Come on Vstep.
« Reply #44 on: February 22, 2012, 14:28:42 »

@VirtualSkipper:
Quote
Patch V1.5 has been released!

I think you need to delete your profile and settings before installing the new 1.5 patch. Otherwise you could get problems after installing this new patch.
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VirtualSkipper

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Re: So many Bugs, Come on Vstep.
« Reply #45 on: February 22, 2012, 14:34:37 »

I haven't had any trouble.  :-\
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danny

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Re: So many Bugs, Come on Vstep.
« Reply #46 on: February 22, 2012, 16:51:20 »

Hi,

does anyone know how many copies of SSE have been sold? Would be really interesting to me because I assume that there are limited numbers of players.

best wishes
Ingo
I belive somewhere in the region of 300k? But thats for the series as a whole.
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Mad_Fred

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Re: So many Bugs, Come on Vstep.
« Reply #47 on: February 23, 2012, 00:25:16 »

It was somewhere around 550k at the time of SSE's launch, for the series total, according to paradox' press release at the time. So by now, SSE has to be added to that. I couldn't say how much that is by now, though.
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danny

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Re: So many Bugs, Come on Vstep.
« Reply #48 on: February 23, 2012, 01:08:55 »

It was somewhere around 550k at the time of SSE's launch, for the series total, according to paradox' press release at the time. So by now, SSE has to be added to that. I couldn't say how much that is by now, though.
550K?
*WARNING! MATHS!*
So, if they charge £30 per title, and they make approximantly £10 from each copy, thats 5.5 million, not including sales, which will probobly reduce that total by around 500k. but still, 5 million pounds?!? and they still release a slighty broken SSE?  :o :o :o ::)
« Last Edit: February 23, 2012, 01:10:46 by danny »
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Mad_Fred

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Re: So many Bugs, Come on Vstep.
« Reply #49 on: February 23, 2012, 06:40:32 »

That's not how it works.  ;)

it's not one fixed price for each title over the complete period of time anyway.  :)
« Last Edit: February 23, 2012, 06:44:13 by Mad_Fred »
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