Container ship Rena breaking apart

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[vin_sun]

Clanky ..... all your comments addressed to them should certainly silence those "armchair captains and navigators" 

[Stuart2007]

You find this sort of thing all over the place. I was looking (out of boredom) on youtube at aicraft and the comments from people "ooohhh he landed that with too much flap extended" and so on- by people that probably have only ever played msfs- and then try and argue it out with professionals.

[Subwolf]

Well I don't see many professionals in this thread. I see someone trying to defend a captain who has commited a crime and broken basic rules at sea. I don't get it..

But my thoughts were right, according to investigators the Rena was indeed running behind schedule, in an effort to make up time they altered course and headed towards a coral reef marked on all charts. If they didn't make it in time they would have to wait for the next tide to reach port. And that means extra costs for the company..

Both the captain and his navigation officer was arrested, I've never heard of officers being arrested after every accident. There is always a reason, and this incident was caused by incompetent and low quality officers. I believe there are many of them around Asian waters, I'd like to see them off these ships.

Simos31, you raise an interesting question about insurance fraud. The Rena is owned by the Greek company Costamare Inc, and we know about the financial crisis going on in that country. Doesn't sound like that's the case here though, but it does add up. Investigation will tell.

[Stuart2007]

Well I don't see many professionals in this thread. I see someone trying to defend a captain who has commited a crime and broken basic rules at sea. I don't get it..

But my thoughts were right, according to investigators the Rena was indeed running behind schedule, in an effort to make up time they altered course and headed towards a coral reef marked on all charts. If they didn't make it in time they would have to wait for the next tide to reach port. And that means extra costs for the company..

Both the captain and his navigation officer was arrested, I've never heard of officers being arrested after every accident. There is always a reason, and this incident was caused by incompetent and low quality officers. I believe there are many of them around Asian waters, I'd like to see them off these ships.

Simos31, you raise an interesting question about insurance fraud. The Rena is owned by the Greek company Costamare Inc, and we know about the financial crisis going on in that country. Doesn't sound like that's the case here though, but it does add up. Investigation will tell.

You are insans, subwolf. Whether or not there are many maritime professionals on this thread is irrelevant- YOU ARE NOT ONE OF THEM!

No official statements have been released that have resulted in charges being brought against any officers. So stop talking rollocks.

Of course they were arrested as there MIGHT be charges brought or there might not be. It is a standard procedure in any accident or incident to prevent them leaving the Country just in case charges are brought.

You are not at all qualified to judge the competency of these officers at all and such comments from you display a total arrogance and belief in your investigative abilities that go far beyond your own actual experiences. You believe this, that or the next thing> I believe in elvis being alive but that doesn't make it so. So stop talking total utter bilge.

As for your reasoning that because the Greek economy is in a mess that this is obviously an insurance fraud is so ridiculously tenious that it is bordering contemptable.


Yes, finally you are right on something. INVESTIGATION WILL TELL.

And I don't recall hearing your name being announced by the NZ gov in connection with their marine investigation branch.

Idiot.

[Stuart2007]

Incidentally, he has commited no crime. A person is innocent until found guilty by a panel of professionals and following a jury of his peers.

Double damned idiot.

[Subwolf]

I'll ignore your language, Stuart2007. I'll leave that to the moderators.

All the reports coming from the investigation indicates that very bad seamanship is the cause of this incident. And I'm not going to change my opinion about it.

[Traddles]

Perhaps if everyone is prepared to wait until a full investigation has been carried out and a final legal judgement been made it would be sensible to have opinions, but to keep them quiet until after the judgement is made. In a civilised world it is usual to presume innocence until such time as guilt is proven. Now Somali pirating is a different matter, but that does not mean that ALL Somalis are pirates does it?

Traddles.

[Stuart2007]

I'll ignore your language, Stuart2007. I'll leave that to the moderators.

All the reports coming from the investigation indicates that very bad seamanship is the cause of this incident. And I'm not going to change my opinion about it.

OPINION. THe operative word. Opinions are like anal passages- everyone has one and it is often full of...

[Subwolf]

OPINION. THe operative word. Opinions are like anal passages- everyone has one and it is often full of...

You can start by shoving a cork up yours, because we all know this crew screwed up their navigation, or should we say the lack of it..

[Stuart2007]

You can start by shoving a cork up yours, because we all know this crew screwed up their navigation, or should we say the lack of it..

Considering your self professed knowledge on this it is surprising that the worlds maritime accident investigation departments aren't all queueing up to seek your expert forensic guidance.


I think part of your problem is you don't like people from hotter climates being in command of vessels that should be in the hands of Europeans- in your opinion.

[clanky]

Well I don't see many professionals in this thread.

At least 3 that I am aware of have commented on the thread and none of those have felt the need to pass judgement on the actions of the captain

I see someone trying to defend a captain who has commited a crime and broken basic rules at sea. I don't get it..

No-one is trying to defend anyone, all that people are saying is that it is ridiculous for those with no knowledge of the events other than what they have read in the media and no knowledge of what it means to command a ship to believe that they have the right to cast judgements before any official inquiry comes to its conclusions.

But my thoughts were right, according to investigators the Rena was indeed running behind schedule, in an effort to make up time they altered course and headed towards a coral reef marked on all charts. If they didn't make it in time they would have to wait for the next tide to reach port. And that means extra costs for the company..

Both the captain and his navigation officer was arrested, I've never heard of officers being arrested after every accident. There is always a reason, and this incident was caused by incompetent and low quality officers. I believe there are many of them around Asian waters, I'd like to see them off these ships.

Unfortunately it is almost standard practice to arrest the ship's captain after any incident where pollution is caused these days.  As for incompetent and low quality officers what qualifications do you have that give you the ability to determine the competence of a ships officer?

Simos31, you raise an interesting question about insurance fraud. The Rena is owned by the Greek company Costamare Inc, and we know about the financial crisis going on in that country. Doesn't sound like that's the case here though, but it does add up. Investigation will tell.

And until it does you would be better keeping your opinions to yourself.

[danny]

Personally I feel that 3 things could have caused the little "mishap" (even though its a rather big mishap).
The first is mechanical faliure, which seems unlikely as the Rena was reportedly making 17kts at the time of grounding/floudering. weither the steering gear decided it wanted a rest at the time of the inicident is unknown, although that again is unlikely.
Which leaves human error or weather. being as the weather was calm then human error is the most likely cause, However, I doubt the captain was at fault, as he *probobly* wasn't at the wheel during the incident. Thats my peice said,

[vin_sun]

However, I doubt the captain was at fault, as he *probobly* wasn't at the wheel during the incident.

On any ship the Captain is NEVER at the wheel. The wheel (or the helm) is operated by a crew member called the helmsman who is also an Able Bodied Seaman (better known as AB on ships). He operates the wheel as per the Captain's or the Navigating Officer's orders. It's not like an aircraft where the pilot actually controls the wheel (or the yoke).

[danny]

On any ship the Captain is NEVER at the wheel. The wheel (or the helm) is operated by a crew member called the helmsman who is also an Able Bodied Seaman (better known as AB on ships). He operates the wheel as per the Captain's or the Navigating Officer's orders. It's not like an aircraft where the pilot actually controls the wheel (or the yoke).

Not strictly true, fishing boats and smaller island vessels will often have the skipper at the wheel, but thats me nit picking  But in short its not All the Cpt's fault.

[vin_sun]

Danny ..... we're talking "container ships" 

[danny]

Danny ..... we're talking "container ships" 

I know 
But out of question, would the CPT take the wheel if the vessel was in danger, IE was about to flounder? or would the helmsman or OOW stay at the wheel?

[vin_sun]

But out of question, would the CPT take the wheel if the vessel was in danger, IE was about to flounder? or would the helmsman or OOW stay at the wheel?

The captain would still not take the wheel. If a helmsman is found inefficient he would normally be replaced by another one. Even the OOW will not be given the wheel unless of course the situation is so urgent and a replacement would take time to arrive. Today there is a lot of emphasis on what is called "Bridge Team Management". There are guidelines as to how many persons are required on the bridge based on the scenario / traffic conditions. Responsibilities are specified for each member of the Team and "taking over the helm" is never allotted to the captain. A captain handling the wheel will amount to him losing command / control of the grave situation and whatever he is monitoring.

Traditionally, there are only three helmsmen on a ship. An inexperienced or an inefficient helmsman increases the work load on the other two helmsmen and it can be quite tiresome especially if the entire stretch down a river is on hand steering, eg. the Mississippi River (from Baton Rouge to the Gulf of Mexico). Harbour / River / Canal pilots are know to get very angry if they are confronted by an inefficient helmsman and they straight away demand a replacement. A good and experienced helmsman is an integral part of the Bridge Team.

[Subwolf]

No-one is trying to defend anyone, all that people are saying is that it is ridiculous for those with no knowledge of the events other than what they have read in the media and no knowledge of what it means to command a ship to believe that they have the right to cast judgements before any official inquiry comes to its conclusions.

You shouldn't make a statement like that when you have no idea of who you are talking to. It's only natural that an incident like this one will be discussed on maritime forums. I'm convinced that the master of this vessel has broken all basic rules at sea, obviously you're not. Fine, that's your opinion.

[--tractorman--]

I'm not one to get involved here, but this is one good thread!

[The Ferry Man]

Regarding Captains on the bridge, I thought I have seen the Captain of the QM2 berthing the vessel himself?

[Stuart2007]

subwolf, Clanky is only a chief engineer. I mean, what the hell could someone who has risen through the ranks of his department after a clearly successful career possibly know about running a ship.

It isn't as if the senior officers of each department have to know the basics of other departments in case of emergency or anything.

Which is sarcasm, btw.

TFM, ferry captains or their chief officer will berth the ship with their own hands on the controls.

[clanky]

You shouldn't make a statement like that when you have no idea of who you are talking to. It's only natural that an incident like this one will be discussed on maritime forums. I'm convinced that the master of this vessel has broken all basic rules at sea, obviously you're not. Fine, that's your opinion.

Yes, it's on;ly natural that it will be discussed, however, their is no need for some of the slanderous and racist comments which have been posted regarding this particular captain's ability or the ability of Asian captains in general.

I have never stated my opinion, please do not put words into my mouth, the only thing that I have stated quite clearly is that I do not feel that those with no knowledge of what it means to command a ship should not be second guessing the actions of someone when they don't know the circumstances.  You say that I should not assume that you have no knowledge of what it means to command a ship, by all means share your experience and qualifications and then I might be prepared to take your opinion seriously.

[Traddles]

A point to bear in mind regarding responsibility. The Master of ANY ship bears the ultimate responsibility for anything which happens to his ship. It matters not who was at the wheel or if the ship is under control of auto pilot, or who is on the bridge, or if the Master is in the saloon having his dinner. The Master is ALWAYS responsilble, that comes with the job, and really is exactly what he is paid for. This is a fact of seagoing life.

Traddles.

[Stuart2007]

Angus,

There is a similar issue in road transport. If one of my drivers commits an offence then I am automatically vicariously liable and technically joint defendant for the offence.

In practice though as long as I have acted correctly in training and enforcement of instructions and rules, I will generally be free from culpability even if taking full responsibility.

I guess it is similar for the Captain of a ship. Always responsible but if they have exercised their duty correctly then they are not culpable.

[vin_sun]

@ Angus / @ Stuart

Responsibility comes with a price and sometime by most unfair means.

There was this incident in South Korean waters where unfair criminalisation really crossed limits. A floating crane was being towed out a port by a tug and the sea was quite choppy. The towline parted and the crane being adrift collided with a loaded single hull tanker at anchor and punctured her shipside. This resulted in crude oil escaping from the tanker and did result in a major pollution incident. Authorities promptly arrested the Master and the Chief Officer of the tanker and there were behind bars for over two years. This if you see was not the fault of the Captain of the tanker in any way.

On another maritime forum that I visit, I remember a post. It was about an airline pilot who quite 'gallantly' landed his distressed aircraft on the Hudson River and saved the lives of all the passengers on board. The pilot was hailed as a hero and even decorated. The scene was transferred to a "what if" situation with a merchant ship captain doing something similar ........ he chose to run the ship aground on a beach as if he had not, the ship would have sunk and resulted in the loss of lives of all the crew on board. In all probability he would have been arrested for damaging a beach / irresponsibility / incompetence / and what have you ! This captain would never have been hailed as a 'hero'

Yes, the weight of "four stripes & a diamond" is pretty heavy !

vin_sun