Titanic sunk by steering blunder, new book claims!

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[mvsmith]

Gentlemen,
Consider the physics involved in bringing the mass of that ship, travelling at 21 knots, to a screeching halt in only a few tens of meters. Estimate the G force. There would likely be movement of heavy machinery and consequent fires. Many people would go flying and hit or be hit by hard objects.
Most marine architects who have studied that proposition concur that it is a bad idea.

The lady is still stuck on the myths of “the long gash” and the “backward steering wheel”, both long dismissed.
Titanic was not the first ship to have replaced the tiller or whipstaff with a wheel, nor was it the first day on the job for her helmsman. Responding to “hard starboard” correctly would have been as automatic a reflex as responding to “left full rudder” would be for a helmsman today.

[saltydog]

What baffles me is she didn't even have red distress flares..
Were they so cocksure nothing could happen to them..?

[Firestar]

From what I heard is that it wasn't the designers who were so sure about her status as 'virtually unsinkable'. I heard it was the media who blew everything out of proportion, which we all know how easily that can happen.. *cough*Bp Oil Spill*cough*...*cough*swine flu*cough*..

[lolmax123]

Wouldn't it helped if they altered course towards the iceberg and collided with it dead ahead? You would have less compartiments that would take water in. Same reason why ships steer head-on-head if they can't prevent a collision. i'm not sure about the Titannic's case since i've never read up on that subject but i was just wondering. 

well titanic was going slow enoughto just puncher one from the front and stopped

[Mad_Fred]

Consider the physics involved in bringing the mass of that ship, travelling at 21 knots, to a screeching halt in only a few tens of meters. Estimate the G force. There would likely be movement of heavy machinery and consequent fires. Many people would go flying and hit or be hit by hard objects.
Most marine architects who have studied that proposition concur that it is a bad idea.

 

[IRI5HJ4CK]

 

That is all I will say...

[Subwolf]

No wonder Mr. Lightoller wanted to hide this, they did everything wrong taking all those lives as a result. According to the book they spotted the iceberg 5 minutes before impact, still they managed to hit it. And if they stopped after the impact she would've stayed afloat until the Carpathia could reach them. Instead they continued sailing making the damage much worse. I'm sure the captain knew that, still he took orders from the company. I can't believe he did it.

[RMS Gigantic]

Subwolf, I do hope that was sarcasm.

The iceberg was spotted 37 seconds prior to impact, and the engines only continued running for 20-30 minutes after collision, before the order was given to stop them.

Those are the figures researchers agree upon, and this woman's story is full of a lot more holes than that.

[Subwolf]

Where did you find the 37 seconds? It doesn't even make sense because there was no fog, it was a cold and clear night and you should be able to spot a large object like that from some distance. 5 minutes at 20 knots makes sense.

I'd rather listen to the grandchild of officer Lightoller, and she has no reason to tell lies. When they continued sailing for about half an hour it certainly increased the damage as water was forced over the bulkheads. The flooding would take much longer if the ship didn't move, and she probably wouldn't even sink. That's what this woman is telling, and I believe her. 

[The Ferry Man]

to be fair, after 98 years, with no survivors around anymore to ask - we are never going to know what really happened...

[RMS Gigantic]

Where did you find the 37 seconds? It doesn't even make sense because there was no fog, it was a cold and clear night and you should be able to spot a large object like that from some distance. 5 minutes at 20 knots makes sense.

I'd rather listen to the grandchild of officer Lightoller, and she has no reason to tell lies. When they continued sailing for about half an hour it certainly increased the damage as water was forced over the bulkheads. The flooding would take much longer if the ship didn't move, and she probably wouldn't even sink. That's what this woman is telling, and I believe her.  

1) The iceberg was not able to be seen until 37 seconds before impact for these reasons:

• The ship was moving at about 40 feet per second at the time, so 37 seconds places the iceberg at about 1,500-1,600 feet in front of the ship. Four minutes is 240 seconds, placing the berg at more than ten times the ship's length. That is difficult to see at night, on top of the reasons I will further list.
• The iceberg in question was one that recently rolled over, leaving its top transparent.
• The moon was not visible that night, so there was no light reflecting off the iceberg.
• The Atlantic was at a rare flat calm, so there was no wave action at the base.

In fact, the only way the lookouts could even tell that the berg existed was because one of them noticed that a dark object seemed to be swallowing stars out of the night sky. Such a phenomenon is much more likely to be observed at about two ship lengths than at ten, don't you think? Yes, there was no fog, but the actual viewing conditions were really far worse.

2) She DOES have a reason to lie: she has a book coming out, so why not get some hype around it? Look at my link earlier in the thread, to a Titanic researching forum: researchers have no reason to lie.

I have been trying, but I cannot remove the final "[/list]" tag on this post unless if I include the tag in this sentence.

[Subwolf]

Well sorry mate, but I'm buying her story and not yours. I don't think she would disrespect the 1500 lives lost and tell lies only to make profit, she just thinks it's time to tell the truth.

[RMS Gigantic]

Well sorry mate, but I'm buying her story and not yours. I don't think she would disrespect the 1500 lives lost and tell lies only to make profit, she just thinks it's time to tell the truth.

But why would her whole family wait until now, when she is coming out with a book, to tell this truth? White Star Line was absorbed long ago, and the men that she says the secret protected are long dead. Her story has many more holes than just the distance at which the iceberg was spotted. For instance, how could WSL engineer and execute a complete conspiracy within 24 hours, and how did the officers' testimony match so well with all of the passengers'?

[Subwolf]

I don't know why she waited, maybe she was unsure about writing this book, or let it rest.

But anyway, they did keep sailing for some time after the impact, I'm sure you agree that it was a bad idea. And if the visibility was very poor, as you say it was, then the speed of 20 knots would be madness there and then in those days when they had nothing to help them except a pair of binoculars, and even today.

I'm not saying you're totally wrong though, I'm just saying her story does make sense.

[Firestar]

RMS Gigantic, how do you know for sure the amount of time between the iceberg spotting and impact? Don't answer that question, because you don't really.. no one does. I'm just saying..

[RMS Gigantic]

I don't know why she waited, maybe she was unsure about writing this book, or let it rest.

But anyway, they did keep sailing for some time after the impact, I'm sure you agree that it was a bad idea. And if the visibility was very poor, as you say it was, then the speed of 20 knots would be madness there and then in those days when they had nothing to help them except a pair of binoculars, and even today.

I'm not saying you're totally wrong though, I'm just saying her story does make sense.

Binoculars would be no help in spotting anything because they narrow your field of vision. As for the 20 knots, it was common practice in those days to sail full speed a head through an ice field. Sounds like madness today, but back then, that's how officers were trained.

Furthermore, if you do some research on that night outside of only her book, her claim makes little to no sense.

The helmsman correctly interpreted the command and correctly excecuted it.

[Subwolf]

You start to sound like you were on the bridge yourself

So they were trained to risk passengers and ship in those days? Well I remember the movie Titanic from 97, when one of the officers was concerned about the speed, but the captain didn't want to reduce it. Why? Because he was under pressure by the company to arrive in New York on time. To bad captain Smith was a weak man.

[RMS Gigantic]

That movie is notorious for its number of gaffes. If the Titanic was set on obtaining a speed record, the last five boilers would have been lit, and he would not have set the route further south than the southernmost shipping lane.

[saltydog]

Apparently the lookout-crew had no binoculars, as the man with the key to the binocular-locker was no longer on board..
Anyway, it is questionable if they would have spotted the iceberg sooner with the conditions at the time..

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Could_binoculars_have_saved_the_titanic

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23410094-is-this-the-man-who-sank-the-titanic-by-walking-off-with-vital-locker-key.do

[Firestar]

The helmsman correctly interpreted the command and correctly excecuted it.

You don't know that for sure. You seem to forget how easily they could have covered it all up assuming this was what actually happened.

[RMS Gigantic]

Salty, binoculars were not used for looking for objects, only confirming sightings.

And Firestar, the "Hard a starboard" order was given and interpreted, evident by the ship's damage to her starboard side.

[saltydog]

Exactly..In that dark, moonless night it would have been very difficult for the lookouts to spot an iceberg from a distance with the naked eye.. And if they did have a suspicion one was up ahead, they didn't have the aid of binoculars to confirm it..All they could do was wait untill they got closer..

[clanky]

Guys, there are a lot of people claiming stuff as fact here which they can't possibly have any knowledge of.  The sinking of the Titanic was a terrible disaster, but one which happened almost 100 years ago.

A few people have bandied the term "disrespecting the lives of those who died" or words to that effect around, I would suggest that the greatest respect that could be paid to those who lost their lives that night is to let things lie rather than to keep dredging up the past and arguing points that can never be proven one way or the other.

Other than those with years of experience in real life ship handling and bridge watchkeeping I would suggest that it is a little arrogant to sit at home having had command of the Titanic from the comfort of your basement and criticise the actions of the professional seafarers who were in that position at that time.  I would ask those who are using maths and describing the conditions that night to "prove" how early the iceberg was spotted, how many times they have actually stood on a bridge wing as a lookout and as such what experience do they base these figures that they are quoting on?

It is very easy with hindsight to say what should and shouldn't have been done, they should have been carrying red distress flares because all ships do today, but this accident didn't happen today, with todays knowledge and experience, it happened to a type of ship which was relatively new to the industry, of which there was not a lot of experience in operation.  The after effects of the disaster should have been handled better, again today they would have been, but this is partly to do with the lessons which were learned from the Titanic (and other) disasters.

Experience is a great teacher, but she extracts a heavy price, lets just hope that the shipping industry and the governments which regulate it never forget the lessons which have been learned, as for the ranks of armchair sailors who would have done it better, go and get qualified, get some real life experience and then come back with your theories.

[RMS Gigantic]

My belief is that every officer that night did precisely as they were taught and/or was common sense at the time. The Titanic disaster, in my opinion, is blameless in terms of people.

[Subwolf]

And captain Smith did precisely what ship owner Bruce Ismay told him to do, which eventually led to the disaster. The captain sailed north into unsafe areas to shorten the distance, ignored iceberg warnings, still maintained 20 knots at night, continued sailing after the impact. The real tragedy is that he knew all of this was wrong. Smith was responsible for all the lives lost, but he paid for it with his own.