Portsmouth-Bilbao - Back in Business

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[The Ferry Man]

Yes, that other ship looks a bit... like it belongs on the channel, it just doesn't 'feel' like a replacement for my next holiday... The Pont Aven DOES look good, I admit (and I might try it sometime AFTER 28th Sept 2010)...

I have managed to book my place on POBs last return journey... Methinks that this is going to be a very busy trip... I hope Pee and ooh do the decent thing and have a proper send off... I expect water cannons and a lot of horn blasting from ships...

And can we re-word Rod Stewarts 'we are sailing' to rhyme with "Po are going. po are going, slowly bank-rupt... Slowly broke. PO are losing on stormy waters, to BF, Stena and LD. PO are doing- very bad-ly. Making no mo-ney for DP. PO are losing their fle-et. To be re-place by pontaven."

FOr anyone who doesn't know the Rod Stewart song, please don't try to make sense of the above...


DISCLAIMER: This is a urine extraction and neither the author or forum host is making a statement that PO is going broke. I don't think anyone needs to state this.

I would love to be on the last cruise.

You should have to try and get some pics

The new ship is a near-sister to the Molly, so will be interesting to see a similar ship on two different types of routes...

[Stuart2007]

I would love to be on the last cruise.

You should have to try and get some pics

The new ship is a near-sister to the Molly, so will be interesting to see a similar ship on two different types of routes...

You are having a laugh?! Molly is a nice ship- for a quick paddle across the channel, but not across the bay of biscay. Im sure its technically 'up to it' but you were not exaggerating when you said the new ship isn't a cruise-ferry...

That sounds like a plan bad enough for PO to take on.

BTW I can't remember the deck layout of Aquitaine, but I seem to recall it was built with 2 decks that either were or could be configured as cabins... as there is a lot of 'open' deckspace on it... THAT ship is certainly up to the challenges of the Bay...

[The Ferry Man]

The New Ship (Cap Finistere): http://www.faktaomfartyg.se/superfast_V_2000.htm

With the Aquitaine the way LD are moving around she could well end up on the Biscay route...

[Stuart2007]

The New Ship (Cap Finistere): http://www.faktaomfartyg.se/superfast_V_2000.htm

With the Aquitaine the way LD are moving around she could well end up on the Biscay route...

Funny, I have had an email from a bloke in wales who works in marine insurance and he says that LD lines did 'indicate an interest' in POBI back last time the lease was coming up... Whether that would be repeated

Hmmm.... It's an interesting point. LD seem to have the habbit of taking over loss making routes and making them work...


EDIT: To be accurate, the email referred to Louis Dreyfuss, not LD which is a subsidiary

[The Ferry Man]

Especially as the actual nature of the 'loss' seems to be not quite known - it seems to vary from complete loss to making money but not enough to invest in a newbuild...

Apparently Bilbao are claiming other companies are interested in Bilbao though...

[Stuart2007]

Especially as the actual nature of the 'loss' seems to be not quite known - it seems to vary from complete loss to making money but not enough to invest in a newbuild...

TFM, I could bore the elbows off of you with a list of onboard revenue opportunities that they are missing. I had a meeting with the purser last time as my comments form was so 'intense' and he asked me to explain... He seemed really enthusiastic, but the expected letter came back "Dear Mr Marmite, the company doesn't think it will make diddly difference." or words to that effect. From my understanding, it isn't the TICKETS that are the tipping point, it is the onboard sales... They were SO CLOSE... Loadings WERE going up, according to that pursor...

I think what they really meant is they were worried about a fight against BF...

Apparently Bilbao are claiming other companies are interested in Bilbao though...

Explain? Is this something other than my comment earlier about these POBI enquiries? Are you referring to the ship or the route or both?


EDIT: Further checking. If LD were enquiring about the ship, it wasn't for Biscay. It is so stated by their MD... Shame LD is a good operator.

[The Ferry Man]

Sorry I meant Bilbao the port itself...

I have to say I am intrigued by what revenues opportunities are missing.

LD are good company the fact that they change the boats is because they are making sure the route works at its best...

[Stuart2007]

That could well just be bravado on their part...(port bilbao)...

Perhaps AT might be back? Who knows... I think personally, that it is a dead duck now with what I've just been reading...

Shame- as methinks PO could have outlasted BF... The PA must be damned expensive...

As for missed revenue opportunities, in a nutshell the onboard services were really not good... TBH I can't be bothered to write this now, but maybe later. All they needed to do was LOOK at their services and what they could provide... ONE BASIC EXAMPLE- why no McDonalds franchise? Families with young kids... The cinema- 10 year old films (empty) internet cafe, mobile phones (at premium inmersat prices)- why don't they fit them? The fares were TOO cheap. The shore excursions weren't very good to say the least...

The shop- just don't even ask about it...

Even the pursor agreed that my suggestion that one of the cafes were open 24 hours was good... Me being me, quite often I wouldn't eat dinner, but at 3AM after the Galax closed (no beer!) I'd fancy a burger... but tough- it was a duty free toblerone! So did I part with money that night? No!

The entertainment is EXACTLY the same as when I started going on in '96 "hooray for hollywood", zzz zzz That disco version of star wars theme tune zzz.zzz.zzz

When I started going onboard, the Galax bar was packed- queues for the bar... lately, the Galax bar (Silverstones (I mean, what the hell has a racing circuit got to do with ships)) is quiet- people drinking canned stuff in their cabins...

So much lost opportunity...

[The Ferry Man]

I am surprised that there isn't a facility somewhere open 24hrs

Well thanks for the write up about the missed opportunities

[Stuart2007]

I am surprised that there isn't a facility somewhere open 24hrs

Well thanks for the write up about the missed opportunities

Oh, that was just a brief summary... But I think the point is made sufficiently well for me to be able to stick to my comments about the competence of PO management.

[matt5674]

Very Sad that P&O is losing a route.

[Stuart2007]

Very Sad that P&O is losing a route.

I know- no matter how often PO loses a route, it still hits you as a shock


BTW: Anyone know the cost per hour of a ship at sea? Someone suggested the POBI Averages about £3500 per hour at sea. But I wouldn't have a clue.

I know the cost per hour is a lot less than a short sea crossing.

[clanky]

Why is the Norman Spirit unsuitable for Dover to Bolougne? She worked for P&O on Dover-Calais succesfully for a long time and has double deck loading with the appropriate loading ramps on the bow and stern. It's much better than the Norman Arrow which doesn't have as much capacity and cannot sail in bad weather.

This is an extact from the Dover Express posted by DoverT on the Dover Ferry Forum:

(http://img259.imageshack.us/i/doverexpress14012010.jpg/)

Nathan, apologies for not replying to this earlier, what I meant was that the Spirit was wasted on the Dover / Boulogne service, she was not running to capacity and she could have been better utilised elsewhere.  LD's new charter vessel is much more suitable for the run, but the decision to bareboat the Spirit to someone else seems a little strange I would have thought that they would have tried to squeeze her in somewhere on an LD run.

[The Ferry Man]

Nathan, apologies for not replying to this earlier, what I meant was that the Spirit was wasted on the Dover / Boulogne service, she was not running to capacity and she could have been better utilised elsewhere.  LD's new charter vessel is much more suitable for the run, but the decision to bareboat the Spirit to someone else seems a little strange I would have thought that they would have tried to squeeze her in somewhere on an LD run.

yes but it will take a lot of work to get her suited for the run...

For a company that most people have not heard of (TEF) it does seem odd to give them the biggest vessel in the LD Fleet

[Stuart2007]

Yes, TFM... But TEF seem to be doing something right... And if LD Lines is going to get guaranteed money...

Remember that prestige isn't having the biggest ship, it is having the biggest (nett) profit... If LD could make more money by employing canal barges instead do you think they'd employ massive great ships???

[clanky]

yes but it will take a lot of work to get her suited for the run...

How? she has already been on the Dover / Dunkerque run, she has been sailing successfully between Travemunde and Liepaja until recently and she is in generally good condition where will they have to spend any big money.  Add into that the fact that she will be a charter vessel and it's only the hotel side which will need any money spending by LD lines.

[Stuart2007]

TFM has a point. Even to repaint a LSF into new fleet colours will take several tonnes of paint. Even down to the logo on the mirror in the toilets- all will be replaced.

[clanky]

In the grand scheme of things an on hire dry-docking is pennies.

[The Ferry Man]

How? she has already been on the Dover / Dunkerque run, she has been sailing successfully between Travemunde and Liepaja until recently and she is in generally good condition where will they have to spend any big money.  Add into that the fact that she will be a charter vessel and it's only the hotel side which will need any money spending by LD lines.

Yes, she did for one week - she was never a Norfolk Line vessel, other then as a replacement for the Dawn Merchant once.

She is single deck loading, and is completely incompatible with the new berths at Boulogne - she would require conversion to double deck loading - this would include:
* Removing the Stern Ramp
* Adding new doors to stern
* Fitting the right design rear Cow Catcher

Then, if they want relatively quick Turnaround times in Boulogne, they need to convert her to double deck drive through:
* Fitting a Bow Cow Catcher
* Cutting a trench through the bow to allow access to the upper car deck
*Adding a Upper Bow Door (She does have a lower bow door)#

And the cow catcher has to be a perfect fit - the Provence had a cow catcher that didn;t fit, and had to go back for it to be modified...

So yes, she does need a bit of a dry dock...

[clanky]

Double deck loading ain't gonna happen.

I had forgotten that she wasn't in Dover for so long (part of the reason why she is in better nick than her sisters)  She was a Norfolkline ship, but running in the Irish sea.

There is a possibility that she will be stern loading only (the bow doors on these ships are a drama)

Even if they decide to go for bow in fitting a cowcatcher when the ship is in dock won't be too much drama or expense.

As this is a charter ship I am not sure what standard LD will want it to operate to, as I said the hotel is OK, but if they decide to do a complete refurb then it will cost them, present facilities are fairly limited, but certainly adequate  for a 90' crossing.

[Stuart2007]

In the grand scheme of things an on hire dry-docking is pennies.

In this day and age, an annual docking of between 1 and 3 million quid (average based on reports from Fal docks) is hardly pennies.

Yes, in the grand scheme of things it is not a major expense, but if you think that the smaller sized expenses do not add up on the annual P&L report, then you clearly haven't run a businesss!!!

[The Ferry Man]

I agree that it is probably unlikely to be used for Double Deck loading, at least not though the bow, stern loading is a maybe,

But it still we be not the shorted refit, and they can't use a ship mounted loading ramp in Boulogne

[clanky]

Norman Bridge (that still makes me chuckle) will be on charter to LD, so they will not be paying for the annual docking.  OK so they will be indirectly through the charter fee, but you know what I mean.

The on hire dry docking is a different matter, the charterer will pay for the docking, the paint job and any modifications which are required to alter the ship to make her suitable for the new service.  Any other costs will be met by the owners / technical managers.

If the ship is due a docking anyway the owners may even meet all or part of the docking fees (each charter party will be negotiated separately and I have no idea what has been agreed on this one), but the Liepaja was last docked around a year ago so the owners may pay some of this.

It is possible that all LD will pay for is the paint job.

[Stuart2007]

The facts are that LD lines will have worked out to £/$/Eu what ship is the best for them per passenger/mile.

If that has come back as un-economic, then they won't use it. Remember a big ship needs a hell of a lot of passengers just to break even. In a downturn, smaller ships will be more viable as they need a lower load to reach BE.

Which is why I predict the cruise market bubble will burst in 2017, although starting in 2014.

(7 years may sound a long time, but not when bank loans on a ship can take 15-20 years to pay off!)

[clanky]

The other advantage of a charter vessel is that you can budget far more easily.

If you know that a ship is going to cost €22,000 per day then you can set your rates accordingly and the only variable is how much trade you get.

If you are operating your own ship and it breaks then you have to pay to fix it and that is hard to budget for, it looks like LD are going more and more along those lines with more charter vessels coming in and the Spirit being bare boated out.

I have heard 50% full quoted as a break even figure for the racehorse class ships when they were on the Dover / Dunkerque run, but I am not too sure of the accuracy or of how it would apply to Dover / Boulogne on an LD service.