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Author Topic: Becker Rudders MISSING!  (Read 18569 times)

joelang1699

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Becker Rudders MISSING!
« on: January 17, 2009, 00:39:54 »

Hi Guys

First off im a Merchant Navy Officer with a good bit of RO-PAX experience so as soon as I had a go of the Pride of Rotterdam I noticed one obvious major thing, she has a standard rudder setup I.E. she dosnt have split rudders, they are on the same tiller...also they cant go hard over to give 90 deg thrust. This is quite a pain as its much harder to swing her stern in Rotterdam than it would be on the real ship. The ship in the game is no where near as maneuverable as the real one.

Could it be im missing something here?
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Master Captain

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Re: Becker Rudders MISSING!
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2009, 01:38:41 »

as far as i know this models turning radius is correct, VSTEP put alot of time into making sure data like this was exact, but then again i could be wrong ::)
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joelang1699

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Re: Becker Rudders MISSING!
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2009, 02:02:35 »

They should have looked at her steering more closely, but then again it could be worse
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firestar12

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Re: Becker Rudders MISSING!
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2009, 04:43:39 »

They should have looked at her steering more closely, but then again it could be worse
Why don't you take a look at this topic, I think it might be of particular interest to you.
http://www.shipsim.com/ShipSimForum/index.php/topic,9277.0.html
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Agent|Austin

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Re: Becker Rudders MISSING!
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2009, 04:59:05 »

Joelang1699,

From your comments it doesn't seem you have ever piloted or researched the Pride of Rotterdam?

VSTEP modeled her rudder and maximum rudder angle according to the real vessels specifications. Her maximum rotation is also accurate.
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Captain Darling

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Re: Becker Rudders MISSING!
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2009, 05:45:26 »

VSTEP modeled her rudder and maximum rudder angle according to the real vessels specifications. Her maximum rotation is also accurate.
AFAIK and I think this is the case, VSTEP got no vessel specifications from P&O, so the dynamics can't be as accurate as it could be. ;)

Austin, how do you know the max rotation is accurate?
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Regards,
James

Agent|Austin

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Re: Becker Rudders MISSING!
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2009, 06:37:27 »

AFAIK and I think this is the case, VSTEP got no vessel specifications from P&O, so the dynamics can't be as accurate as it could be. ;)

Austin, how do you know the max rotation is accurate?
I believe it was discussed in another topic somewhere. Nathan may have said that it was accurate.
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TerryRussell

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Re: Becker Rudders MISSING!
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2009, 08:14:27 »

The vessel dynamics engineers always configure the cesels to behave as closely as possible to the published sea trials data, to which they have access, or any other quantitive data. I know that the data tables for PoR cover several walls. The vessels are tested comprehensively before release.

Some of you have been involved in such tests over on Dreators Forum.

Joelang1699: Welcome to the Forum.

if you have any data that supports your statement, please post it here or send it to me in a PM. We're always grateful forany additional data that m\ay help to improve the vessels.
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joelang1699

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Re: Becker Rudders MISSING!
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2009, 19:47:07 »

Obviously nobody here knows what Becker Rudders are, Yes the initial rudder angle may only go up to 45 deg however the extra flap at the back of the rudder rotates also giving 90 deg transverse thrust. This gives you a crude stern thruster which would be invaluble for swinging the stern into the linkspan and lifting it off again.

http://www.becker-marine-systems.com/03_products_content/03_products_pics/flap_titel.jpg

Most of the modern RoPax vessels out there have them, even vessels with stern thrusters have them fitted.
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joelang1699

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Re: Becker Rudders MISSING!
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2009, 20:05:12 »

I would be very surprised if she dosent have them fitted, even if she dosent she must have the option to enable independent control on the rudders which the sim model lacks.
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TerryRussell

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Re: Becker Rudders MISSING!
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2009, 20:25:20 »

Quote
Joelang1699: Welcome to the Forum.

if you have any data that supports your statement, please post it here or send it to me in a PM. We're always grateful forany additional data that may help to improve the vessels.

If you got it, post it. Please!
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Agent|Austin

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Re: Becker Rudders MISSING!
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2009, 20:26:44 »

Joelang1699, there is a way to control both rudders on a ship, you just have to go change the key commands. There are commands for rudder 1 & rudder 2.

It is just not set to have two different keys by default.
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joelang1699

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Re: Becker Rudders MISSING!
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2009, 20:55:59 »

yes I have done that but the Pride of Rotterdam in the sim lacks this option. Also there should be independent control of the bow thrusters(2 thrusters in this case), there isnt.

Terry:

I knew a girl I went to Nautical College with that served on the Pride of Hull, Ill look her up and she if she has any detailed information on the steering gear.
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TerryRussell

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Re: Becker Rudders MISSING!
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2009, 20:58:53 »

Thanks. All input is welcome.
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Ballast

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Re: Becker Rudders MISSING!
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2009, 21:18:07 »

I was searching for photo's of the Pride of Hull in dock, or another images that shows the propellor and rudder but all i found was this picture of a model of the Pride of Hull.


As you can see, it's fitted with 'spade' rudders. I know it's a model, but someone who puts that much afford in such detailed model and has the orginal blue prints, would make the orginal rudder right?

The picture belongs to this website;
http://www.vow2.co.uk/pride%20of%20hull/pride_of_hull.htm
More pictures there of this awsome model!
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It's the crew that makes the difference

joelang1699

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Re: Becker Rudders MISSING!
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2009, 21:33:32 »

It would be very difficult (but not impossible) to make scale rudders of the becker type for a model of this scale. Also there wouldnt be any real need for them on a model as the manouvreability provided by them simply isnt required, They would also be susceptible to damage.
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joelang1699

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Re: Becker Rudders MISSING!
« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2009, 21:46:50 »

Also this model has standard model triple blade propellers, the real thing has four bladed CCP Lips skewed props. Like the rudders it would not be practicable to include this on a model.
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firestar12

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Re: Becker Rudders MISSING!
« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2009, 21:53:06 »

Also this model has standard model triple blade propellers, the real thing has four bladed CCP Lips skewed props. Like the rudders it would not be practicable to include this on a model.
Why don't you show us a picture of Becker Rudders?
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joelang1699

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Re: Becker Rudders MISSING!
« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2009, 22:08:19 »

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LucAtC

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Re: Becker Rudders MISSING!
« Reply #19 on: January 18, 2009, 01:07:28 »

Hello all,
Like Terry said, if someone has precise data, it would be interesting for us to get the details, of course. Nathan is some kind of reference concerning PoR, surely, but this time he is not 100% right. Indeed, since August, the pilot card of PoR is available (merci to the Capt), and it says the rudder is a Spade rudder, and a maximum angle of 45 degrees. Stop to Stop is 25 sec with one pump, this info was probably not enough detailed, 30 sec wouldn't be allowed.
The propellers are indeed 4 blade CPP rotating top inside ahead. The pilot card wasn't available in time, so that the characteristics were more reasoned and calculated guesses, and there were some limitations of the model of dynamics too.
Thrusters only give a 40 degrees/sec turning rate, and the turning circles in the game are correct, as far as I can remember.
What is in fact not known in enough detail is the natural roll period (I think around 25 sec? or GM for that matter) and how long it takes to turn PoR when she leaves the Beneluxhaven.
And of course, the rudders could have been separated. Next time, surely, or Creator's forum to check it?  ;)

Regards,
Luc

« Last Edit: January 18, 2009, 02:00:44 by LucAtC »
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mvsmith

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Re: Becker Rudders MISSING!
« Reply #20 on: January 18, 2009, 01:19:18 »

Becker Marine Systems supplies rudders in a large variety of types and configurations—including full spade—so saying that a ship “has Becker rudders” is saying very little about the rudders.

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joelang1699

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Re: Becker Rudders MISSING!
« Reply #21 on: January 18, 2009, 01:48:18 »

I have posted a link (twice) to the type Im referring to, The Becker product catalogue has them listed as "Becker Flap Rudder". They are known internationaly in the maritime industry as Becker Rudders as Becker owns the patent to them.
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Agent|Austin

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Re: Becker Rudders MISSING!
« Reply #22 on: January 18, 2009, 01:50:40 »

Do you have any proof these rudders are the type on the POR?
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joelang1699

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Re: Becker Rudders MISSING!
« Reply #23 on: January 18, 2009, 02:05:41 »

Not as yet, im assuming she has them fitted or something similar as mostly all modern ferries have them, especially ones of this scale. My original posting was in reference to the fact the rudders were not split and could not be controlled independently. I have sent an email to Fincantieri (her builders) to ask them what was fitted.

As I said I would be very surprised if they are just simple rudders, as LucAtC said her pilot card has them listed as spades, but I cant realy see this being the case.
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Nathan|C

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Re: Becker Rudders MISSING!
« Reply #24 on: January 18, 2009, 09:50:33 »

Everybody,

Today i recieved a reply from Captain of PoR:

Quote
Indeed the Pride of Rotterdam and Hull have Becker rudders.
This type is called high lift rudders, and can be purchased during newbuilds
from manufacturers such as Becker, Hinze, and some others. The are constructed
in 2 parts and the most aft and outer flap will increase the rudder angle from
30 to about 45 degrees, which will create a side thrust of the aftship in an
angle of 90 degrees.
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