Developing home-made Azimuth Control unit

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[Penguin]

This topic is focused on discussing how the ship simulator steering could / should become enhanced in such a way that home-built azimuth-controlling units will be supported.

First of all to make sure that we do not misunderstand each other a short steering mode information:
ARCADE mode: is selected when precision steering and azimuth override are both OFF.
PRECISION STEERING mode: - is self explanatory -
AZIMUTH OVERRIDE mode: is called "Azimuth Arcade steering" in my German ShipSim-Version - so pls. don't be irritated about two "Arcade" modes.

The plan is that the home-made azimuth controlling unit should work as it's original, which you can see on Bugsier 2 and Ocean Star. The unit should consist of two single 360deg turnable controllers, each containing two potentiometers: One 360 degree potentiometer for the Azipod movement and another one for the thrust lever.

In the following a summary after some tests simulating one single controller (two potentiometers):

Test with 360° endless-potentiometer on Bugsier 2:
- the "azimuth-override" steering mode allows 90° pod-turns in each direction. That means:
I turn the potentiometer 180° and the pod only moves 90 degree.

- The azipod rudder-movement works independent from the thruster UNTIL I start to give positive or negative thrust.
Immediately after I use the second (thrust-) potentiometer thrust und rudder movement are linked/combined in a special way:
After rudder and thrust are linked, the rudder potentiometer also gives thrust - strange. ...but maybe a solution for azimuth-beginners, who are sailing by gamepad and need a simple steering.

- The 360° potentiometer jumps, when reaching it's own technical zero-point:
Remember: The pod moves 90° in each direction so it only has a range of 180° and when reaching the potentiometer's zero-point the pod suddenly skips the other non-reachable 180° and starts again at the beginning. To make it easier to understand an example:
Potentiometer's range: 0-180° . After 180° it skips the range 181-359° and starts again at 0°.
I wrote "unreachable 180°" - that might be confusing: When I start to give a little bit negative thrust, the whole thing switches and I get these "unreachable 180°"-range - as I already said: This must be a solution for azimuth-beginners. It's a simplified steering, probably optimized for simple gamepad maneuvers but not suitable for our purposes.

Test with 360° potentiometer on car-ferry "Red Eagle" (steering mode: simple arcade):
- The rudder can be turned 1:1, that means a 360° potentiometer turn provokes a 360° rudder turn.
So my impression is, that this principle of steering mode should be suitable for the azimuth-ships.

Three negative points while Red-Eagle tests:
- The 360° potentiometer doesn't turn exactly 360° (4-5 degree less), so there is a small skip (technical reasons).
- Between 356° and the zero-point there are interferences (technical reasons).
- When crossing 356° the needle on the ships indicator doesn't continue it's movement in direction to zero degree BUT it abruptly turns backwards the whole 356° until it reaches zero degree - it turns quite fast, but one can see it.

> End of summary <

What could be a solution?
Well, it wouldn't be a good idea to change the present steering modes because they work as they were planned. But: How about a new, fourth, "Azimuth real control" steering mode?! 
 
The "azimuth real control" mode should be made so, that when you push the steering button on the keyboard, the pod turns 180deg. With a home-made "real" controller you can reach the between area. Same with thrust: When you push a thrust button on the keyboard, it should go all the way (but for thrust a 270deg potentiometer could be an inexpensive alternative).
An important point: Rudder and thrust need to work seperate (no further link/connection between azipod-movement and thrust as in "Azimuth override" mode).

If you're interested in the progress of the controller design, just have a look at this topic (including pictures of models):
> How to build my own controller [Page 3] <.

[pigdog]

Hi All,

I agree with you penguin, that the addition of another steering mode similar to that of the red eagles steering ability and no connection between direction and thrust would be the way forward without taking away any of the current steering options.

I'm wondering if any of the devs could comment on how hard this would be to either design or impliment into the game.

Pigdog

[ekto]

I agree with both. There should be an control mode like in the red eagle. Other wise you cannot control azimuth with a home made controller.

[pigdog]

Hi All,

I found this on the net might be better than a slip ring it has less noise, let me know your thoughts.

http://www.mercotac.com/html/331.html

Pigdog

[Penguin]

I had a look at the FAQ on the site.
"Rotating connectors" - sounds very interesting and it seems they have several advantages compared to slip rings.

[Sam]

I think, that a normal connector from your mp3 player to your headset allso wil do the job.
There are people who build model cranes or excavators who use the same.

Think simple!

[Penguin]

I think, that a normal connector from your mp3 player to your headset allso wil do the job

How could that work, Sam?
Remember that you have three conductors.

[Sam]

3?

I thought you had 2 in each control.

One for direction and one for throttle, isn't the throttle the only one where you need it for?

one potmeter = 3 contacts
one plug = 3 contacts


I allso saw a usb controller from Lbodnar on wich you can connect a rotary control.
That can turn unlimmited.

I'll look for it, that is better than a potmeter.


One question:
Potmeters can only turn 356° (unless if you buy 5 or 10 turn potmeters)
Why don't you just connect the throttle potentiometer with wire in stead of slip rings.
A potmeter can only turn 356°!

[Penguin]

I thought you had 2 in each control.

A misunderstanding: What I called "conductors" did you call "contacts", so you are right when you write that you need a solution for the three contacts from the thruster potentiometer.

I supposed that the mp3 connector you suggested, only had two "contacts".
With three contacts it could be worth a try.

Concerning LBodnar's USB controller I already tried to connect a rotary encoder with this unit.
It doesn't work in a satisfiying way:
The rotary encoder only has 16 detents and although it is adjustable by a small program, it's impossible to get the rudder turned 360deg after 16 detents. Each detent is about 5-10deg, i can't remember exactly. 

Concerning your question:
You are right, the potentiometers mechanically only reach ~356° and then skip to 0, but there should be a chance to cover 360° by calibration.
By using wires instead of sliprings you are forced to turn the rudder completely back to come to zero degree.  No doubt, that would work, too, but it's not exactly how it works in reality.

[Sam]

Oh, now I understand, you want to modify a potmeter so that it can turn unlimited.

Great idea!

One tip: don't buy to expensive potmeters, beceaus they are verry well build.
Cheap ones are ease to disasemble and to remove the mechanical lock.

I still have a few cheap potentiometers and will see if I can remove the lock.

[Penguin]

Oh, now I understand, you want to modify a potmeter so that it can turn unlimited.

No, I use industrial potentiometers from VISHAY that turn 360° endless.
They cost about 13 EUR each, but I think they are worth the money.

[ekto]

It need's to be trough bore (hole in the center) in order to work. Trust me, I have tried several designs and there is no way to do it, with solid slip ring, or any other device that doesn't have a hole. With out the hole, you cannot get the rotation movement to the 360 pot accuratly.

I have a new idea for the ball bearing slip ring. I will add washers (small metal plate with a hole in the center) both side of the ball bearing. Hopely this will help with the noise in the signal. I will make a new prototype in few days.

[Sam]

It need's to be trough bore (hole in the center) in order to work. Trust me, I have tried several designs and there is no way to do it, with solid slip ring, or any other device that doesn't have a hole. With out the hole, you cannot get the rotation movement to the 360 pot accuratly.

I have a new idea for the ball bearing slip ring. I will add washers (small metal plate with a hole in the center) both side of the ball bearing. Hopely this will help with the noise in the signal. I will make a new prototype in few days.

There are potmeters with a hole in it.
I'll see if I can find anything for you.

[ekto]

Thanks. I tried, but had poor replies... If there would be one for reasonable price, then I can use a telephone cord untagle thingy as a slip ring  Costs like 3 euros and can carry audio signals, that are much more demanding...

[Sam]

look for 'instel potmeter'

That is the Dutch name for it.

A lot of them don't have a hole, but you can easely bore that out.

Another solution is a gear with a verry big hole. on the the turning part and a gear on a potmeter.
you can put a tube trough the gear where you can put wire trough.
The drawing explanes it all.

[ekto]

That is a very nice idea. So as I see it, you just need same size gears? Why didn't I think of that  I think that this can be done cost efectly by using the big gear from a RC-car. The hole need's to be only 5mm, and the gears already have holes. And in this design, I can use the telephone cord thingy.

I already have the gears since I have a RC-car and spare gears. The gear looks something like this:

They cost something like 7 euros.

I think you cracked this one Sam. Thank you!

I will skip the slip ring prototype and move to testing the untagle thingy. If it works, we are done.

[Penguin]

Hmm... Sam and ekto, I've still no idea how this could work in an endless way. 
The upper pot will turn and the wire connected with this pot will turn, too - or am I wrong?

[ekto]

I was so happy about the new idea, I tested the untangle thingy already.

Penguin, One gear is in the center line connected to the rotary table. Second gear is connected to the rotary pot, and the pot is in the base, not in the center. The pot can be off axis as much as both gears radius is. If the radius is 10mm, then the pot can be off axis 20mm.

This is the untagle thingy (plese give it a better name):


I needed to modify it for the testing:


The wire is wery poor for soldering:

In the final design, there is no need to touch this part. I will use standard telephone connectors and move the soldering away from the part. This way it stays intact and can be replaced.

Soldering:


Redy for testing:


Testing:



About the test... It works flawlesly  No fibration or anything else. I could turn the joint, and the croshair stays still. If I move the pot, croshair moves smoothly.

Next thing is to model the geared version and then I'm ready to order the housing 

[Sam]

Something verry important with gears is that you have a verry good bearing.

You shouldn't buy ball bearings, but make shure the two gears have a strong base.
Like two aluminium plates.


Ekto, what do you mean with ordering the housing?
Aren't you going to build one yourself?

I think buying a real housing is verry expensive.

[pigdog]

Good work guy's, I may have to rethink my housing to have space for gears but it should work, good idea Sam.

Do the telephone untangle things have a proper name they are exactly what we need and would solve a whole host of problems.

[ekto]

Something verry important with gears is that you have a verry good bearing.

You shouldn't buy ball bearings, but make shure the two gears have a strong base.
Like two aluminium plates.


Ekto, what do you mean with ordering the housing?
Aren't you going to build one yourself?

I think buying a real housing is verry expensive.

My parts are going to be machined with a computer controlled milling machine:

Example picture

Cause my job, I know many companies that does this and I was able to get the machining and the material for a really low price. But it doesn't mean that someone else could not do it with a drill and saw. The design is done so, that you could do it. But in my case, I get ready parts for price that other pay of the material.

I cannot tell any exact numbers yet, but I think I can get a ready machined controller for like 50 euros, or even less, depending of the new design. It doesn't matter, how complex the part is, just how many there are.

[ekto]

Good work guy's, I may have to rethink my housing to have space for gears but it should work, good idea Sam.

Do the telephone untangle things have a proper name they are exactly what we need and would solve a whole host of problems.

Check what Google found:
http://www.shopping.com/xDN-telephone_accessories-phone_cord_detangler

The name is Phone Cord Detangler 

[pigdog]

I've just seen that Belkin do one £3.99 each on Amazon.

Do they turn 360 ekto? and the piece you cut off in your picture did that expose the wires and how did you attatch the wires into the other end?

I think this is the way to go definitely and the gearing idea is a must too, but both gears have to be the same size so I'll have to find four from somewhere, anybody got any ideas where to find them either in the UK or online? I was thinking along the lines of Mechano or something like that but I don't know if you can buy individual pieces or you have to buy a set.

[ekto]

Pigdog,

RC-cars have gears. Just go to your local remote controlled car dealers website. And I'm not talking about Niko's or any other basic grosary store RC-car. Try searhing kyosho. It's one of the largest makers. I have a kyosho 1:10 Subaru with fuel engine. Out runs my 175 bhp real car when testing 0 - 50 Km/h 

Actually, just go http://www.hobbystores.co.uk/


Those gears are quate cheap (less then 10 euros) and there is a large varioty. The ball bearings that I tried earlier was from RC-shop.


And yes, the detangler turns 360 contineusly. I think you got a shop called Biltema there? They sell a tetangler for 2.5 euros and it looks like it's the same I got. I don't know where mine is from, cause I toked it from my work phone 

Cause I'm trying to cut the cost of the project, I bough all my soldering stuff from Biltema. They are not wery high quality, but they work just fine.


Edit: You might not have the Biltema, but you have Bauhaus? I think there you might find those...

Edit2: Some how I confused you with Pinguin and offered German links  I corrected the links...

[Sam]

Ah, so you are going to cnc mill it 

I wish I had acces to a cnc machine.


In wich material?
Aluminium, plastic?

Out of one massive peace or plates?
This is going to be interesting!