E.U.

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yes

5 (15.2%)

no

28 (84.8%)

Total Members Voted: 30

[Captain Davies]

That european countries would fight together, well..., the past even very recent, demonstrates that NATO has no particular feelings for european lives. So no, NATO has nothing to do with peace, but everything with war.

That's a fair point, but I was knid of reffering to a World War 3 situation where Europe all of Europe was directly threatened by a foreig army.

[LucAtC]

E.U. is indeed like Marmite, tasteful if thinly spread.
And is being used by many as a proxy, also by NATO, by the way.
And I also remember the good old days, of the threat of climate cooling because of nuclear experiments, and Chinese planning the invasion of Europe. Was the last time that Europe was invaded, the end of XVth century?
Regards,
Luc

[Stuart2007]

That's a fair point, but I was knid of reffering to a World War 3 situation where Europe all of Europe was directly threatened by a foreig army.

That isn't going to happen. Most 'proper' countries now conduct economic warfare. Look at the situation between Uncle Gordon and Emperor Putin. It's all show- the threat of revived nuclear wars etc are all just for posturing and should not be taken seriously.

Places like Iraqistan and P.D.R.O MadeinKorea can be dealt with by co-operation between nations.

Why do we need to surrender to a continent that is more worried about banana shapes than world peace? With all the billions squandered by our political masters, do you not think if they were serious in their vision that people would no longer be starving to death or dieing of mrsa etc.

Please, please, do some research on politics- really investigate it rather than reading the neo-marxism c**p that comes from the sun and the mirror.

Stu

[Paddy134]

I have changed my mind now, i dont think europe should be one country but the union should be tighter so we can defend ourselves efectively incase of foreign threats from the flegling superpowers we are beginning to see.

[Stuart2007]

China, for example, is taking us over piece by piece (as are the Russians). We are buying on mass credit with no hope of paying.

They do NOT NEED to threaten us with military action. We are all here for the taking when the time is right. Only the small 'warm' states are a military threat. And they can be dealt with quite nicely by HMS Vanguard & co. (if unc Gordon hasn't sold our navy to repay his appaling mismanagement of the economy).

"Comrade Putin, Sir"
"Yes Staski"
"Better not attack the EU, Mr President Sir."
"Why not, Staski"
"Their bananas are set at a curvature of +/- 2.6 degrees"
"Oh my god, Staski... Do you know what this means? We're doomed"
"Not only that, Sir... Despite insufficient workforce they have introducted the working time directive. Effectively banning overtime at work."
"No..." 
"Yes, sir... Their productivity in the Union of European Socialists Republic is so low that they can not hope to continue. And the Human Rights legislation... ALL European criminals must be treated better than the elderly and vulnerable."

This, gentlemen, is what Europe is about. Incompetence and inepttude.

Is the plan to screw the Continent so badly to the point when no one, not even Mr Bin Laden wants it any more?

Even read back to the early Winston Churchill books for his assessment of the socialist movements back then. They do not work. They can not work. This website proves that, as an example.

Stu

[Kevinmcg_ships]

I hope EU will never become a country.

I think Britain will be the biggest loser. I believe we would end up losing the NHS, the social security etc as there is no way EU could afford free healthcare and welfare payments based on the British model for every European citizen across the whole of EU.

Also, I have no confidence in how the EU handles its massive budget. They have just submitted their balance books without EU Auditors signing it off for the 13th year in-a-row (they have refused to do this since 1994). So how do we know where all our money has spent on? Is it used properly? What controls there are in place to prevent fraud or inappropriate use of funds? Apparently none. Private Eye, a British satirical magazine - published fortnightly - keeps a very close eye on EU's shenanigans. It often makes a very uncomfortable reading.

Unfortunately it would seem that some people are right in that the member states will be forced to become a single country, in order to mount a serious challenge to the economic might of the US Russia (the EU wants Russia to join them) and China. And possibly against other super-countries that might emerge in future (for example, the collective nations of Africa when they get its act together)

[Captain Davies]

That isn't going to happen. Most 'proper' countries now conduct economic warfare. Look at the situation between Uncle Gordon and Emperor Putin. It's all show- the threat of revived nuclear wars etc are all just for posturing and should not be taken seriously.

Stu, if you read back you'll see that I never actually said that Europe would be attacked:

The only thing a United Europe would acheive is the largest superpower in the world, and seeing as we are no longer living in the Cold War there is simply no need.  If such a war ever were to break out then the countries of Europe would fight together anyway.  That's why we have NATO.

I said that the only good the EU would be for were in the event of an attack and also how unlikely I thought that would be.

Places like Iraqistan and P.D.R.O MadeinKorea can be dealt with by co-operation between nations.

That is a sentence I agree with totally.

I further agree that it is disgusting that more attention is paid to the rights of criminals than to the elderly and vulnerable.  Criminals don't die in their cells due to being cold, or even from dehydration during a heatwave.  So why is that the case for elderly people. 

I know a lot of them get heating allowances but they save that to spend elsewhere.  Why?  Because then Chancellor of the Hole-In-The-Pocket Exchequer, and now unelected Prime Minister, Gordon Brown, thought it would be a good idea to raid the pension funds, creating a crisis that will only worsen as the deficit becomes more obvious.

[Stuart2007]

Stu, if you read back you'll see that I never actually said that Europe would be attacked:

Sorry, I was just trying to make the point, but NOT at your expense.

That's a fair point, but I was knid of reffering to a World War 3 situation where Europe all of Europe was directly threatened by a foreig army.

This is the post I was referring to. Sorry if I misunderstood you.

Criminals don't die in their cells due to being cold, or even from dehydration during a heatwave.  So why is that the case for elderly people. 

I know a lot of them get heating allowances but they save that to spend elsewhere.  Why?  Because then Chancellor of the Hole-In-The-Pocket Exchequer, and now unelected Prime Minister, Gordon Brown, thought it would be a good idea to raid the pension funds, creating a crisis that will only worsen as the deficit becomes more obvious.

The human rights issue has been a disaster. It was legislation designed to prevent persecution of people during the years after WW2 (to stop attacks on Jews, Germans (by the lands they occupied) etc etc.) It was never intended to do what it is doing now- that is- destroying the fabric of society.

And lets make no bones about it, destroying the fabric of society is EXACTLY what it's doing.

Hole in the pocket? ROTFL

Look at the state of the economy. The iron chancellor? Maybe... but iron rusts in rain, and he's sitting under a cloud. He is the biggest disaster in this country since... er.... The tyranasaurus rex?

Stu

[metalfork]

I voted yes...because i could live and earn money in every part of Europe that i like to!
But i guess it could cause some troubles having such a big country with so many states!
I could probably get as it is in america...not enough information from foreign countries and stuff like that!
but thats my opinion!
Cheers...Jonny

[Stuart2007]

You make a good point metalfork.

But I hope no one misunderstands this point. You make a good point about not enough information. I currently work with 2 Poles, 1 German and have worked with French and Belgians. I hope I understand a little of European cultures and traditions. Most people do not (and likewise many Europeans lack real info about us here.) Whether the same is true between different mainland countries, I can not say.

The problem (from UK perspective) is that we have evolved very differently in many respects. Not least of all that European law is descended from Napoleonic law and ours from a totally different branch (not time or space to elaborate at this time, but the fact that we don't have a written constitution (until yesterday) says a fair bit about it.)

In no way am I anti-Europe or anti European. I think we are all EQUAL.... But we ARE different. One day, maybe the EU will work, but you have 3 distinct groups here: Napoleonic, Our M.C. and Eastern Europe descended from Soviet Communism... Try to throw them alll together this quick=disaster.

Stu

[metalfork]

But I hope no one misunderstands this point. You make a good point about not enough information.

Yeah...i was kind of worried about when i wrote that! But sadly i had situations which prove that!
I stand for free and uncensored information for all human mankind!

Cheers, Kippäs, Prost, Yamas, Skoll, ....Jonny

[mvsmith]

Interesting points, Stu,
One thing I might suggest is to substitute M.T. for M.C.
That the US has been able to make Democracy work—to the extent that it has—for more than two centuries and despite many administrations is due to that great gift from our English founding fathers.
No, not the Magna Carta, but as Winnie put it, the ability to Muddle Through.
Regards,
Marty

[mvsmith]

as it is in america...not enough information from foreign countries and stuff like that!

Jonny,
It’s not that we don’t, or can’t, get enough information from/of other countries—we have BBC World, CNN, and the Internet along with, for some of us, personal experiences. It’s that, consumed with our domestic problems, we don’t give a damn.
I don’t think that is an attitude peculiar only to Americans.
How many Europeans have a deep knowledge and understanding of us—apart from TV shows and the more lurid headlines? Certainly the people of the US should not be judged largely by our foreign policy, over which few of us have any control.
Marty

[metalfork]

hello mvsmith!

I did not mean it that hard...but for example:
I took part in a history lesson which was about europe and the countries within in form of an imaginary trip through europe...good thing! But why the hell was that imaginary trip during second world war and not today!
this all happend in year 2000 by the way!
for me its sad to now that people learn about my countrie like it was over 60 years ago and i have to be asked if i´m a nazi and if we got electricity, video recorders, water from the tab....and all stuff like that!
that is frightening me!
sry if i said something that affected someone somehow....
it is just what i experienced!
Cheers Jonny

[mvsmith]

Hey, Jonny, I wasn’t taking offence, just pointing out that, today, it’s not necessarily lack of access to information on other countries that’s the problem.
You are right that there is a lot of disinformation. History books in schools are usually either out of date, or written with a bias of some sort.
I’ve found however, that on TV here one can find good insight into other countries and peoples—mostly from PBS. There are many good travel shows that go beyond what folks on the usual “seven countries in seven days” tours get.
I was fortunate that my years with Scripps took me to many diverse places around the globe, with more shore time than most cruise ships allow. (A week in a graving dock is actually a great way to see the world. ) Also, the scientific party often is international in composition, and I’ve had the pleasure of a couple of expeditions with a Norwegian captain.
Best regards,
Marty

[LucAtC]

Tip of the toes.... 
Differences in background, culture, education, history and religion are inherent to the concept of nation and to the fact of different languages.
Ignorance of other people culture is also quite understandable, but the source of most failings is almost systematically lack of toleration. The origins are to be found in contempt of weaker people, greed, ruthlessness, all things so well camouflaged by the necessity of security or the unavoidable struggle for life. From that, slavery, exterminations, settlements of all kinds illuminate the XIXth and XXth centuries.
Inevitably, the finger is pointed to someone else.
In that sense, the EU is an easy scapegoat, as it can be assured it will never answer critics. Nevertheless, it is made of (now) 27 countries, and you can find officials, politicians and MPs of these countries, all of them using the EU as it pleases them, and using it also as a proxy to let pass unpopular/not needed decisions.
A standard curvature of bananas is a life-threatening necessity for the big distribution (so as to eliminate small producers and distributors), and you cannot have at the same time a great social system and no taxes.
EU is an evolution of the Common market, turned sour (like surströmming) because of having indeed annexed greedy cultures, cultivating the words competition, war, struggle, conquest instead of cooperation, generosity, union or commonality.
Where do such cultures come from? Rock and roll? Punk? Publicity? Ignorance? Clearly again, lack of tolerance. Who knows?
EU budget fails health check (http://www.guardian.co.uk/eu/story/0,,2210464,00.html)
EU may force region to repay cash (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/file_on_4/7045159.stm)
The neverending story... 
"Because there is no freedom without knowledge" — Jérémie Marguerie
Regards
Luc

[Stuart2007]

I think we all make our own good points here.

Marty, you are right... If I had never been to USA, my interpretation of the country would be somewhat different. Hollywood does not (IMHO) portray USA in a very good light. Yet, I've found Americans to be really great people- very well mannered (that used to be a British trait once  ).

But the difference between America and Euroland is that (with the exception of Native Americans) America was formed more or less as it is now and has quite a young history (400yrs really). On the other hand, Britain and Europe has a history going back much, much further.

For example, The constitution of USA and many other countries, including Europe, stated what you were allowed to do your defining rights' etc. In Britain it is the other way around (or was until 1997)- there was no written constitution and basically you can do whatever you want unless it is specifically forbidden.

That is totally different to the way Napoleonic law has evolved.

Basically, I reiterate my point that whilst we may all be equal we are all different.

Stu