Titanic bug

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[Captain Titanic]

Hello people.

I just recently worked out this little bug. Not on ship simulator, but on the Titanic itself. Its about the iceberg, and how the Titanic hit it.

Titanic was heading strait forhead (forward) when the Iceberg was sighted. It semmed that Captain Smith, who was a strong beliver of the ship being "unsinkable", was warned about icebergs all day long. However Captain Smith was not at the wheel. Anyway. The crew, after reciveing the call from the bridge, shouted HARD TO STARBOARD! Which means sharp right. But the ship did not turn starboard, it turned PORT (left) It turned left, not right. But all the crew shouted "HARD TO STARBOARD!" Does anyone understand this error? I don't know if this acctually happend in the real 1912, but in the film "Titanic" it did.

Titanic

[LucAtC]

Hello Captain Titanic,
It is not the first time this question is being discussed, look for instance at http://www.shipsim.com/ShipSimForum/index.php/topic,1957.0.html
or search the forum. Encyclopedia Titanica is also a very good reference.
Welcome,
Luc

[mvsmith]

Cap’n T,
“Hard a’ starboard” means turn the ship’s head to Port. It has always meant that since the days when ships were steered by tillers, until that helm order was outlawed in the thirties.
Marty

[Captain Titanic]

No it doesnt:

Forhead: Foreard
Port: Left
Starboard: Right

"Hard a' starboard" means steep right. But the ship didn't go right. It went left. (port)

[[RWP]DJM]

This is how it is now:

No it doesnt:

Forhead: Foreard
Port: Left
Starboard: Right

"Hard a' starboard" means steep right. But the ship didn't go right. It went left. (port)

This is how it was at the time

Cap’n T,
“Hard a’ starboard” means turn the ship’s head to Port. It has always meant that since the days when ships were steered by tillers, until that helm order was outlawed in the thirties.
Marty

The movie was correct with the way the situation was on-deck at the time of the incident

Regards.

DJM.

[LucAtC]

This is a quote of the reference:
Why was the order "Hard a'starboard" given, when it was intended for the ship to turn to port?
It's best to quote from John Harland, from his book 'Seamanship in the Age of Sail':

    Orders to the helmsman were traditionally given in terms of "helm", that is to say, the position of the tiller rather than the rudder. 'Hard a-starboard!' meant 'Put the tiller (helm) to starboard, so that the ship may go to port!'. It will be realised that not only the bow turned to port, but also the rudder, top of the wheel, and prior to the advent of the steering-wheel, the upper end of the whipstaff. Cogent reasons existed, therefore, for giving the order in what one might call the 'common sense' fashion. The transition to 'rudder' orders was made in many European countries about a century ago...The change did not proceed smoothly everywhere, since old traditions died extremely hard in the merchant service, even in lands where the new convention was readily imposed in naval vessels...In the United Kingdom, the changeover did not occur until 1933, at which time the new regulations were applied to naval and merchant vessels alike...although the United States Navy made the switch from 'Port helm!' to 'Right rudder' in 1914, practice in American merchant vessels did not change until 1935.

Aboard Titanic, the command, "Hard a'starboard" would result in the helmsman turning the wheel to the left, which caused the rudder and the bow to rotate to port. This may seem confusing to the modern layman, but the deck officers and quartermasters of that period knew no other convention.

Also today, (yesterday too...) to avoid difficulties of interpretation of the orders by the helmsman, "port" and 'starboard" are forbidden (as they in fact describe the left and right sides of the ship when looking forward) and the words "left" and "right" are standard and mandatory.
That is the  long way to translate the posts of  mvsmith  and  DJM ...
Regards,
Luc

[[RWP]DJM]

Why take a Fictional, fake movie, and make such a huge deal about it!

How do you work out that the movie was fictional

Some of the character's were obviously fictional, but the story is based upon true events

Regards.

DJM.

[mvsmith]

Thanks, Luc, for amplifying.
It’s amazing how erroneous ideas about helm orders, and Titanic’s in particular, persist. There were many people who believed that Titanic’s wheel was backward—top spoke to starboard turned to port—and was a cause of the accident.

Even Kit Bonner, who was technical advisor to James Cameron, perpetuates the myth in his book Great Ship Disasters: “First Officer Murdoch reversed the wing engines full back, stopped the turbine engine, and had the pilothouse wheel turned to starboard, which turned the ship to port and away from the iceberg.” No wonder folks are confused.

Although it’s probable that there was no “right” action that would have saved Titanic after the berg was sighted, Murdoch did panic, and by reversing the wing engines, lessened Titanic’s chances of turning enough to miss the berg.

As Luc’s reference explains, the helm order given by the Sailing Master remained, from the days of the tiller, independent of what the helmsman actually did to implement it. This allowed the Sailing Master to not change his thinking depending on whether the vessel had a tiller, whipstaff, or wheel.
In fact early wheels could be either way depending on whether the builder decided to make the top spoke act as a tiller or as a whipstaff.

On 21 August 1935 the US Congress passed the Helm Order Act, which outlawed the use of Port & Starboard in helm orders. Orders must take the form Right…rudder, or Left…rudder. Most other countries did likewise at that time.

[mvsmith]

Why take a Fictional, fake movie, and make such a huge deal about it!

Actually, Shipfan, the subject was not entirely about the movie, but about a debate and misconception that began, shortly after the disaster, with the testimony of Hitchens before the US board of inquiry:
According to the transcript of the US inquiry as quoted in the Titanic – Nautical Society & Resource Center, Hitchens said “He (Murdoch) rushed to the engines. I heard the telegraph bell ring; also give the order ‘Hard a’ starboard’”. 

Seamen understood that the order was to turn to port. Just about everyone else went to work on wild theories about Murdoch screwing up, Hitchens not hearing correctly, or the wheel being hooked up backwards. And that silliness continues to this day.

Marty

[Fred 12]

Yes the Captain was in bed asleep.

[Al Bundy]

Murdoch did panic, and by reversing the wing engines, lessened Titanic’s chances of turning enough to miss the berg.

Who says Murdoch panicked? What action would you take? Please take your time to think about it. Murdoch had 38 seconds to think of his plan, order it and see it executed. It was a perfect "port around" manoeuvre.

[mvsmith]

Al,
Perhaps I should have said a hasty decision. I realize he didn’t have much time to think. However, his instinct to slow the ship, while understandable, compromised the steering. Given the stopping distance of Titanic at that speed, and the closeness of the berg, his engine order could not have any significant affect on the force of impact, but it did lessen the rudder effectiveness. As I said, there was no way that collision could be avoided, but the best chance to lessen the damage was to turn as rapidly as possible rather than a slight reduction in speed.
Regards,
Marty

His “Port around” manoeuvre did fall somewhat short of perfection.

[Al Bundy]

Al,
Perhaps I should have said a hasty decision. I realize he didn’t have much time to think. However, his instinct to slow the ship, while understandable, compromised the steering. Given the stopping distance of Titanic at that speed, and the closeness of the berg, his engine order could not have any significant affect on the force of impact, but it did lessen the rudder effectiveness. As I said, there was no way that collision could be avoided, but the best chance to lessen the damage was to turn as rapidly as possible rather than a slight reduction in speed.
Regards,
Marty

His “Port around” manoeuvre did fall somewhat short of perfection.

Hehe I was too hasty too    But it is still debated weather he ordered full astern or just stop on both engines. The order to boiler room was "Shut all the dampers". If an engine should go full astern it would require as much steam as going full ahead. Also did the engine really come to a full spead astern in those 38 seconds, did the turbine engine come to a full stop also. There was no break on it so it would have provided some water flow around the rudder even though slower and slower. It is interesting to find out how the water reacted between the wing propellers and the centre ditto.

Port around manoeuvre was perfect, just the distance was not

[mvsmith]

Al,
In the end, it probably made little difference in the outcome. As you point out, the wing screws could not have had much affect on steering even if they had begun turning in reverse. The main cause of loss of steering would have been from stopping the center, turbine driven, screw, who’s wash on the rudder was important.
It’s unlikely that these questions will ever be answered fully. The archeological evidence has put to rest the absurd idea that the berg “sliced a big long gash in the hull”, but items such as the engine order telegraphs are too badly deteriorated to provide any clues.
Merry Christmas
Marty

[Al Bundy]

If I had a time machine this ship is definitely the first place I would visit

Also Merry Christmas to you too.

Oh, did I write "break" ? I meant "brake"   Christmas Break must be really needed

[Captain Titanic]

The captain wasnt in bed fast asleep. The Captain was on the bridge! And Quartermaster Hitches was at the wheel lol.

[mvsmith]

Listen kid,
You had better lose that lousy attitude if you want anyone on this forum to pay any attention to you.
Shouting is bad enough, but personal attacks of that sort are not tolerated.
Uppercasing your infantile tantrums does not get you more attention from the grownups.
The man’s name was Hitchens.

[[RWP]DJM]

My apologies, I missed that post initially, it's now been edited.

Regards.

DJM.

Edit:  Just realised why I missed it, I wasn't logged-in then.  It's been a long day

[Captain Titanic]

Listen kid,
You had better lose that lousy attitude if you want anyone on this forum to pay any attention to you.
Shouting is bad enough, but personal attacks of that sort are not tolerated.
Uppercasing your infantile tantrums does not get you more attention from the grownups.
The man’s name was Hitchens.

Mvsmith

In your posts lately, it is quite obvious you are trying to become a moderator. Now why dont you look here! If you, in ANY way whatsoever, talk to me like that in ANY way. once more... One thing I will NOT tolerate on my posts is people like you being completely unuseful. If something in my comments are not nice, you tell me nicely! You better grow up a little because you have been rude on a lot of my posts lately Marty, And I wont have it. So If you have nothing god to say, just dont say anything. You better wake up. I do not call people "lousy" because someone spelt someones name wrong. Whats more, I take the Titanic very seriously

posts like: "Yeah the captain was fast asleep in bed" and all those comments I will NOT tolerate a bit. Over 1500 people died that night, and rude and silly jokes like that, I willl NOT have! And I shall call anyone who posts stuff like that whatever I want! Who knows how much of my family were lost then!

What I wount tolerate even more then that is posts like you cursing me because of that! How dare you in anyway. Better not post in my topics again Mvsmith. Because you dont have a nice tongue.   

[[RWP]DJM]

Ok, I think this has gone far enough.  We don't need to see members attacking each other (whether they started a topic, or not).

I would like to point out here, some editing of posts has taken place.  This can make it appear that one member is responsible for this topic getting out-of-hand.  This is not the case.

Please refrain from making personal attacks on your fellow forum members.

Thank you

Regards.

DJM.

[mvsmith]

Captain Smith was on the bridge if—as is common convention—you include the enclosed chartrooms as part of the bridge. It’s likely that he was engaged in plotting a course change to the South.
He did not arrive on the maneuvering bridge until after he felt the collision.
He asked Murdoch what they had hit. After Murdoch confirmed that it was a berg, Smith told him to close the watertight doors. Murdoch replied that he already had.

Whether the captain was on the bridge, in the head, or drunk in his bunk—as one baseless canard has it, is irrelevant in fixing the ultimate responsibility. There was no reason for Smith to be by Murdoch’s side. Good Master Mariners are not micromanagers.
The responsibility for the disaster is Smith’s simply because he was running too fast in a bad place. The fact that it was Ismay who told him to keep the pedal to the metal does not in any way excuse him. Other captains have stood up to their landlubber employers, and are required to.
Other charges that have been piled upon him are largely of little consequence to the outcome:
Failure to post more lookouts; If those in the crow’s nest couldn’t see the berg, who else could have?
Failure to equip the lookouts with binoculars; seemingly a bizarre class thing, they would probably not have bought enough time.
Failure to post a maneuvering watch in the engine room; true, it takes many hands to quickly deal with reversing a reciprocating steam engine and shutting down a turbine, but again, it would not have bought enough time given the excessive speed and the inertia of the machinery.

Best evidence is that Murdoch did ring Full Astern, but the consensus of informed opinion is that he did so to alert the engine room, with the extra ringy-dingys, that they were in deep kaka. He had no expectation that the screws would reverse anytime soon.

Every single account that I’ve read has at least one error of fact. Even Bob Ballard, after actually looking at the ship and doing considerable research, has voiced some questionable theories. (I’ve often felt that Bob has less interest in ships while they are afloat.)
I‘ve had the privilege of many hours of conversations with Masters and Mates about the Titanic, and value their insight above that of many armchair experts.

One last, oft quoted myth is that Thos. Andrews came to the bridge to tell Smith that his ship was sinking.
Actually, both Smith and Andrews visited the orlop deck. There they discovered that Titanic was in danger of losing the Royal Mail contract as the postal clerks attempted to salvage the soggy bags.
 

[Captain Titanic]

I dont blame Smith for the accident. It was Brunce Ismay that I find guilty. He was the chairman for the White Star Line. And rather in the odd position of being on the ship that he owned (Titanic) He wanted to attract passengers to the Titanics future voyages (which never acctually Happend) by getting to New York earlier then planned. Personally I think that could be a bad act, because the New Your port were the Titanic was due to anchor might be full at the time, but it would be empty when the vessel was due to arrive.

The Titanic, in the middle of the North Atlantic, was going full speed ahead. Why? Because Ismay said so. As I said, he wanted to get to New York before plan so he could attract passengers. He didn't even care if the ship hit stuff. He thought the ship was unsinkable. He told Smith his command, who had to obey. So he told the crew, full speed ahead, while he went on the bridge (NOT IN HIS BED FAST ASLEEP!) the ship went at 25Kn... And the lookouts saw the Iceberg. "Hard a Starboard!" but it was too late. The engines were going to fast to turn, or to reverse, and Titanic hit the iceberg and sank, killing 1500 people with her.

Titanic hit the iceberg WHY?
The ship was going to fast WHY?
The crew did it WHY?
Captain Smith said so WHY?
Because Brunce Ismay said so WHY?
Because he is the owner of the ship. He can tell Smith to do whatever He wants!

It leads to Brunce Ismay. He was the cause of this disaster. Not because Captain Smith was FAST ASLEEP IN BED!

[Captain Titanic]

Ok, I think this has gone far enough.  We don't need to see members attacking each other (whether they started a topic, or not).

I would like to point out here, some editing of posts has taken place.  This can make it appear that one member is responsible for this topic getting out-of-hand.  This is not the case.

Please refrain from making personal attacks on your fellow forum members.

Thank you

Regards.

DJM.

Ok I'll promise. But two words I am not so sure

Attack: Attack? combat? Im not useing a sword of a gun. Its the keyboard that is writing the words.
Fellow: Who said Mvsmith was my friend? Well Im not.

But I shall promise not to get out of hand. But You gotta admit. That comment from Fred 12 was way out of order. "The Captain was fast asleep in bed" Is he trying to make a joke? well he badley failed. 1500 people died on that ship. Nothing is funny about it.

[[RWP]DJM]

But You gotta admit. That comment from Fred 12 was way out of order. "The Captain was fast asleep in bed" Is he trying to make a joke? well he badley failed. 1500 people died on that ship. Nothing is funny about it.

Surely you must agree that we all have our own opinions (including Administrator's and Moderator's).  Starting a topic, then expecting people to post what you want them to post is asking a little too much.

The comment didn't appear to be meant as a joke to me, and I don't believe it was intended that way either.  There are so many stories about what actually happened that night, who's to really say what happened

The 'attack' I was referring to was where you stated that another member shouldn't post in your topics.  This is a public forum, and all registered members share these topics.  Any member who posts a topic, must expect that there are other members on the forum who like to have their say also, and they are fully entitled to do so

Regards.

DJM.

[Captain Titanic]

DJM.

How can a captain be fast asleep in bed, knowing that they are in the most dangorus part of the voyage, plus they were going at 25kn? Captains, have common sence. They dont snooze away while their ship is going 25kn forward, its the dead of night and the whole liner could hit an iceberg and sink... killing 1500 people with it?

I don't think you still used the rioght world. Its more like "defending" then "attacking" anyway who cares.