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Author Topic: Ship Simulator: The Great Scam  (Read 18157 times)

grd

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Ship Simulator: The Great Scam
« on: February 20, 2014, 01:37:54 »

It is a very big shame that this childish game has in the name the word “Simulator”. It doesn’t fit at all.
I’m on Ship Simulator since 10 years, more or less, being maybe one of the first who bought the game at day one.  It was a very good start, surely far from a real ship handling simulator and far from the counterpart Flight Simulator (this one deserves the name simulator a bit more) as well. A lot of things to improve, but I was (we were) confident.

Unfortunately, things went different: since then I didn’t see any improvement, any development. We have three different versions of this game which are pratically same. Obviously, each of them well payed.

I just want now to write some of the very disappointing issues i have found on this game since the very first time i played and, as i said, never solved.  And let me just say in real life I work on board ships as Deck Officer:  this just to clarify I am talking about something I know, it’s not just chatting.

First of all the ship’s dynamics are not convincing. This is maybe a not so easy topic to discuss about so I will just say that since the beginning the ship’s dynamic models have been changed a lot of times. Ships’ behaviours have been changed many times but the ships implemented in the game are always the same (I’m talking about ships,  not about boats).
Somewhere  I even read Vstep said the ships’ models ingame have been made using real projects (I remember this was said about Pride of Rotterdam). Hell! Forgive me if I think this a bullshit, but I remember in all these years even very macroscopic characteristics have been changed many times! For example, on Ship Simulator 2008 Pride of Rotterdam was equipped with Stern Thrusters. Same topic applies to other ships too (Orient Star, in some version, was fitted with Stern Thruster, Vermaas was without thruster, same for Latitude and so on).

Every update we get some absurd updates. To keep talking about Vermaas, I remember after an update it was impossible to use the ship because to get the thrusters to 100% load it was necessary about 3 or 4 minutes. LOL!

Let’s talk about multiplayer. Always sucked a lot. Bugged as hell. And always some bugs: ghost ships, ships disappearing, ships stuck, ships with different positions for every client connected. And no bollards! Impossible to moor the ship when playing online. But it’s not even possible to fully interact with other players: if a pilot boat come alongside the ships will bounce together and maybe get some damage. And please don’t talk about tugs! Pushing it’s impossible for the same reason, but even towing you can’t hope too much.

The most ridicolus thing: THE WIND! Absolutely no effect on the ship. Slow or high speed doesn’t have any impact: the ship will keep going where the bow is heading. If the rudder is amidships the heading will not change, even out of bridge wind is blowing over 50 knots. I ask myself why on the very minimal hud (another step back compared to SS2008) the COG is shown, since is never different from the heading (only when the ship is moving backwards!). No current as well, of course. Too much. But we have the waves! Funny eh? Even with 10 meters swell or wave the ship will keep the heading.

Some of the 3D models of the ships have very evident errors which maybe affect the ship’s behaviour. The Pride of Rotterdam, again as example, is fitted with two rudder abaft each propeller. On the game, the starboard propeller doesn’t have rudder: the rudders are fitted one on the port propeller and one on the longitudinal axis!

AZIPODS! Before this last update, on the Orient Star, if I go hard-a-starboard with the helm (35°), I could see the azipod moving 360°! 5° was then corresponding to 22° of actual azipod angle and 15° order was 90° of actual angle! Seeying this thing I really can’t stop asking myself if the people working at Vstep they have even a rough idea of what they are doing. Now this problem seems solved: we don’t see anymore the azipod indivudal control moving, but who knows what is really happening in the simulator?

Artificial Intelligence, aka non-playing ship. I really have no words to say how much it sucks. I can’t say how many times I closed the game because a kamikaze ship hit my bow or my stern while swinging. But I can say it’s almost everytime. You can say “Well, just disable the traffic!”, then I will reply “Thanks to the dumb Vstep programmers, if i disable the traffic, i can’t have bollards on the environment!”.

Moorings? In SS2008 it was possible to give more lines to a single bollards. Now is no more allowed. Even this part of the simulation it’s implemented like the worst arcade game. And I totally forgot to say in some environments it’s impossible to go alongside because when you touch, doesn’t matter how smooth, you will be bounced.

I’m sure I am forgetting a lot of things to say (crappy graphic engine?). This happens when there is a lot of stuff to say.

I am sorry to all the forum user’s for this wall of text, but I am pretty sure maybe someone will agree with me.

This is not a simulator, not even a game, it’s a very early alpha version of an arcade game. The worse thing is the support of the software house: no support at all, no bug solving, no suggestions accepted. Only addons, pay addons obviously.
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Jake_Savage

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Re: Ship Simulator: The Great Scam
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2014, 09:21:18 »

I don't work for VSTEP and in no way an I affiliated with them. But I think personal attacks against the developers are not the way forward. If you look through boards all of these issues have been brought up before. And I'm not going to deny that they exist. However coming here and ranting (in quite a rude manner) isn't going to help anything. I also suggest if you claim to have a job (which I assume you need to be clever to do) you improve your grammar. So people will believe you.

As I say I agree with most of what you said. But I have faith in the VSTEP workers. And if you think you can do better perhaps you should have a go!

Jake Savage
(NOT A VSTEP WORKER)
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captain03

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Re: Ship Simulator: The Great Scam
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2014, 11:55:40 »

I totally agree with you. There isn't any big improvement since the so called "Simulator" has been released. It's more like Bug Simulator. I think the game was given up by Vstep a long time ago.
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sydmichel

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Re: Ship Simulator: The Great Scam
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2014, 12:41:36 »

I also suggest if you claim to have a job (which I assume you need to be clever to do) you improve your grammar. So people will believe you.


Ease to 10 Jake, clearly English is not his first language and his English is far better than my Italian (or Spanish for that matter).  As you pointed out, personal attacks don't help the situation. 

The best action is if you do not like the post, is to just ignore it and the topic will die,  responding to it only serves to keep the topic alive.
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grd

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Re: Ship Simulator: The Great Scam
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2014, 13:20:21 »

I don't work for VSTEP and in no way an I affiliated with them. But I think personal attacks against the developers are not the way forward. If you look through boards all of these issues have been brought up before. And I'm not going to deny that they exist. However coming here and ranting (in quite a rude manner) isn't going to help anything. I also suggest if you claim to have a job (which I assume you need to be clever to do) you improve your grammar. So people will believe you.

As I say I agree with most of what you said. But I have faith in the VSTEP workers. And if you think you can do better perhaps you should have a go!

Jake Savage
(NOT A VSTEP WORKER)

Dear Jake,

You are absolutely right: I should improve my grammar. As someone said this is not my first language but im trying to do my best. My apologize if the text, perhaps quite heavy, is not so readable because of my grammar.

About the topic, I am usually a quite positive person and I always have faith in other people actions. in fact I had faith on this game and on developers for years! But we are just stuck. I know i am not saying anything new, all the bugs and all the missing features have already been told. And still stuck we are.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2014, 13:33:04 by grd »
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Jake_Savage

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Re: Ship Simulator: The Great Scam
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2014, 14:32:13 »

Dear Jake,

You are absolutely right: I should improve my grammar. As someone said this is not my first language but im trying to do my best. My apologize if the text, perhaps quite heavy, is not so readable because of my grammar.

About the topic, I am usually a quite positive person and I always have faith in other people actions. in fact I had faith on this game and on developers for years! But we are just stuck. I know i am not saying anything new, all the bugs and all the missing features have already been told. And still stuck we are.

We all have these bugs, and I understand your frustration. It still wasn't an excuse for how you spoke. Personal attacks against the developers do not help the situation an I'm
Sure you couldn't do a better job. As Sydmichel said posting on this topic doesn't help as it just "bumps" it. So I won't be posting anymore.

Jake
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VirtualSkipper

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Re: Ship Simulator: The Great Scam
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2014, 14:37:27 »

I thought one of the admins/moderators once said that the bugs were so rooted into the game engine that they were beyond the possibility to be fixed.  :-\
« Last Edit: February 20, 2014, 14:39:26 by VirtualSkipper »
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grd

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Re: Ship Simulator: The Great Scam
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2014, 14:56:41 »

I'm
Sure you couldn't do a better job. As Sydmichel said posting on this topic doesn't help as it just "bumps" it. So I won't be posting anymore.

Jake

And what is that supposed to mean? How old are you, 10?
Obviously i can't fix this game, because this is not my job and i am not paid for this. That's the big difference: VSTEP developers ARE BEING PAID for the job they are (not) doing, paid by me, you and all the customers around the world. This behaviour is unrespectful for all the people who bought the game and supported the development.
Frustration (and im sure im not the only one frustrated, join us on multiplayer sometimes to see by yourself) is the result for all this time being totally ignored. We are talking about almost ten years since the first version came out.
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Mr Robville

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Re: Ship Simulator: The Great Scam
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2014, 01:48:30 »

I was actually surprised to see formatting in OP's post, which made it much easier to read opposed to a wall of text without spaces, I must give him that. It's something I don't regulary see.

As a personal note,
Being dissapointed about something is fine and showing your dissapointment is fine as well, but do not insult any of the developers by calling them "dumb programmers". You are therefore being disrespectful yourself by making such remarks.

Quote
The worse thing is the support of the software house: no support at all,
I have searched the customer support mailbox for any help tickets from you. How many did I found? none.
Although I agree with certain points you describe, this statement is complete nonsense. You would be surprised how many people got helped by kindly explaining their problem. Now if I would have found several unsolved support tickets within there you would be right. But there are not.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2014, 02:09:04 by Mr Robville »
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grd

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Re: Ship Simulator: The Great Scam
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2014, 02:10:50 »

I was actually surprised to see formatting in OP's post, which made it much easier to read opposed to a wall of text without spaces, I must give him that. It's something I don't regulary see.

As a personal note,
Being dissapointed about something is fine and showing your dissapointment is fine as well, but do not insult any of the developers by calling them "dumb programmers". You are therefore being unrespectful yourself by making such remarks.
I have searched the customer support mailbox for any help tickets from you. How many did I found? none.
Although I agree with certain points you describe, this statement is complete nonsense. You would be surprised how many people got helped by kindly explaining their problem. Now if I would have found several unsolved support tickets within there you would be right. But there are not.

Well. You got the point. It has been proved that I have been rude in my message.
Just to make myself clear, I don't like to offend people. I understand only now you (and probably Jake as well) are referring to the "dumb programmers" sentence. I admit it's extremely rude and you have my apologize. It just wanted to be a joke, that's the reason of the quote.

About the support: I am not discussing about the technical support. As you said, I never needed and I did never open any ticket.
Perhaps my fault again, maybe wrong word choices.

The point is the game is bugged. Something is completely wrong and I think there is no need to repeat, because we all know, VSTEP included. Opening a ticket for a bug in the game doesn't make any sense because tickets are just not supposed to be used for that.
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Mr Robville

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Re: Ship Simulator: The Great Scam
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2014, 15:42:12 »

I'm glad we could fix the confusion, thank you for explaining.

I've tried to get the community's biggest desires and best ideas to be done by the developers. Unfortunately I came to understand that due to a series of events this has become a difficult thing to achieve. I wish I could explain all reasons in detail, but to keep it general, the reason is just related to certain irreversable decisions that were made that didn't turn out as good as initially expected. (That's from my own interpretation, I must add)
I'm standing right between the community and developers and have had my own rants in the very past. Since I learned the developers I know both perspectives. And there are understandable- yet- unfortunate reasons these fixes could not be made and understandable responses from the community towards this.

Is that an excuse to leave the product as it is? certainly not. But I hope that despite being unable to go into details, people can understand that when it comes to making changes to the game's core, there are a lot of issues and limits that come with it. Again, I personally agree with certain complaints. If I were able to change the core game, it would have been the GTA of the oceans. (More or less, but without guns)
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paulusfiret

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Re: Ship Simulator: The Great Scam
« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2014, 14:18:09 »

Dear Simmers;
What a fire work!; All has in the meantime been said what should have been said and this topic is now as good as dead; A kind of shame, because the real message- indeed hidden in all these fire works- is still an actual one; Sticking to the main topics in the story, the lack of 'wind'- and 'current' influences; It should be noted that I am asking for these to be incorporated already for many years; In fact as long as ShipSimulater is operational. I have many times said that, without these two, it is a kind of misleading to speak about a 'simulator'; 
It is my wish that everyone will keep a somewhat lower profile with all talks about what more vessels, which more ports, etc., (which I consider as 'chicken feed'- thrown to us in the various DLC's- I just bought the 'Inland'-) in favour of hitting now the developer's tables and start asking for 'AA) some wind and BB) some current. (At least the wind factor should be 'there').
Thank you and k/rgds
PF
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Captain Cadet

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Re: Ship Simulator: The Great Scam
« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2014, 17:45:53 »

Hi
Wind is in the Professional version i believe, but the wind here is to effect the waves - If your normal computer had to take into account wind also, you might as well cook a fried egg on the computer at the same time as wind is a very complex issue and that was taken out to help the game run better. SSE was meant to work well and a lot of time and effort has gone into it and all companies have to get to a point at think is it worth going into more and more fixes? To every technology company, they can spend years and years at making a game work and spend millions but they have to return the money somehow.
These companies are not charity and that they have to bring in a return. VSTEP is in a lucky position that its pro line has done well and SSE probably works of the same base layer as the pro version. to upgrade it to a new base layer would take years and may mean the game wont run on many more computers. Also sit at a computer and spend years trying to code a product and get months in and find a mistake and go back and patch that then relise your patch breaks something else and so on. These developers have probably lived off coffee - I seen the picture of the VSTEP kitchen and there are a lot of cups of coffee just waiting to be washed up.
 VSTEP is also tiny and look at its success. Microsoft have tried to make a Flight simulator and made a major show and relised it was full of bugs and cut the cord. VSTEP hasn't done that. they are still working on it slowly and making it more usable - and that something VSTEP should be proud of. they may only have a few million to get these projects right while Microsoft have BILLIONS to push behind these products.
Mr Robville has worked with VSTEP and I know he is very familer with the matter. Also I am a full time ICT student who has some basic knolage at software and understand how hard these games are to make.
Hope this helps  :thumbs:
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Captain Cadet
Please don't message me for technical support!

MokMok

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Re: Ship Simulator: The Great Scam
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2014, 20:16:49 »

Let’s talk about multiplayer. Always sucked a lot. Bugged as hell. And always some bugs: ghost ships, ships disappearing, ships stuck, ships with different positions for every client connected.

That is a very annoying thing in Multiplay. Player's ships getting stuck onto each other at the center point of a map, so that they have a totally different position than the real position in MP.



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paulusfiret

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Re: Ship Simulator: The Great Scam
« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2014, 11:00:35 »

Hello Captain Cadet; Thank you for the detailed reply;

If you mean, we will not get wind/current, than I believe my statement is still valid, because I said before that, if we don't get it, then please don't call this a 'simulator'.
However, there are a few sailing programs which do incorporate this feature whilst playing on a icy cold laptop, so maybe we should kick-out some other lesser important features, before getting some 'wind'; (Maybe there could be only one area being provided with these features).

Yes, Microsoft kicked their software out, but not before there was a 'near perfect' game available. Their bad train simulator has also been kicked out and these pieces are now flying skyhigh in Railsimulator.
It should be remembered that these mentioned games are not handicapped by the somewhat arrogant policy of the public not being able to modify scenery and/or putting own vessels in the Ship Simulator game. (I am still seeing ridiculous bouy positions in the NRW, without being able to shift them- not to speak about the absence of navigation lights when entering the NRW). I am sure if this mentioned policy would been downgraded, many more people would buy the game because adapting the scenery and adding an working object is one of the appealing aspects in the earlier mentioned games.
k/rgds
PF
Singapore
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Mad_Fred

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Re: Ship Simulator: The Great Scam
« Reply #15 on: March 28, 2014, 18:40:40 »

I do agree with many of the points made, I feel the game lacks a lot of features that one would or could expect from a really promising game in the simulation genre. But that doesn't mean it's not a simulation game though. It is.

Everyone seems to expect that each program that calls itself a simulator, would need to have each and every aspect of the given subject simulated, or else it should not call itself that. That's a little silly.

Think about how many simulation programmes there are. You only need to have a look at - for example - the german publisher and developer Astragon. They have so many games on their simulations list... it's "Just about anything Simulator" country out there. Usually it's not even close to being realistic, heck often the term is completely undeserved. In fact there are only a bunch of games and series out there that actually deserve to have it in their title, and the rest are all lacking crucial substance in many areas.

It seems that a returning vibe is, that if a game is not 'somewhat like microsoft flight simulator' in terms of how elaborate it is, then it's deamed unfit to carry the title, by a lot of folks. Which is kinda silly in itself cause any self respecting real life pilot will tell you that this series was a lot of fun, and just about as best as you'll get in a game, but it's still very much short of what they would call a true simulator and very much just a game.

And the earlier versions of MSFS lacked MANY features that are now the standard, and yet they were calling it a simulator then too. But when they were roughly at the same point in their series as Vstep was with theirs when SSE came out, MSFS was not thát good yet. And most fellow FlightSimmers I knew were always using better 3rd party modded content instead of stock content. So 'amateurs' were doing a better job than microsoft was, plainly put. but now if a game is not like microsoft's little gem of a series, they dont deserve to be called a sim? To someone that has seen that series throughout it's life, that's silly.  :P

A mere game can easily be called a simulator if it, at least in a large part, lets you replicate a real life event or situation or job, or whatever. And the term is used loosely in the gaming industry anyway. And that's all that SSE is too, a game. It's not gonna be the same sort of game as one that was - eventually - made by a company like microsoft who had a HUGE advantage in resources to get to where they had eventually gone. (and who took their sweet time too and who would not have made it if it wasn't for 3rd party development)

If you think a small developer with only a fraction of that at their disposal can rival that, then it's just a litte daft, that's all I wanted to put in perspective.  ;)
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K Jack

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Re: Ship Simulator: The Great Scam
« Reply #16 on: March 29, 2014, 18:50:26 »

We can't expect all simulation games to be as perfect as how we would want it, they would always be prone to bugs, errors, etc. especially at a development stage and sometimes these problems would still go on after the game is launched. The fault cannot only be placed on developers of a particular game but on a system where you currently play this game in terms of the speed or power of your specs (CPU, GPU, RAM, etc) unless its enough to run a game.
I've already own other simulation games like Llan Papini's Virtual Sailor 7, Micro Flight and Vehicle Simulator and have notice the similar bug of when you reset a vehicle is just jump out of the sky but things start to improve a bit. I'm just wondering but have you guys ever tried those simulation games that i named? To me, Vehicle Simulator is the next best game after Extremes that i ever played.

Regards
K Jack
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MokMok

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Re: Ship Simulator: The Great Scam
« Reply #17 on: March 29, 2014, 18:54:48 »

I would like to see a Linux-version of Ship Simulator being released. Linux is gaining more and more popularity, because many PC-users are pissed off with Microsoft Windows since Microsoft has released Windows 8 in 2012. Very popular Linux distros are Ubuntu and Linux Mint, the latter one which has been derived from Ubuntu.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2014, 19:22:44 by MokMok »
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Mad_Fred

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Re: Ship Simulator: The Great Scam
« Reply #18 on: March 30, 2014, 15:17:36 »

It might be gaining popularity, but it's certainly not a big enough group of potential gamers to cater to I'd say, to illustrate, see the the market-share statistics on operating system use (date of survey Feb. 2014):

Windows 7 - 47.31%
Windows XP - 29.53%
Windows 8 - 10.68%
OS X - 7.69%
Other - 4.43%
Windows Vista - 3.10%
Linux - 1.48%

It's not even got past Vista yet, the World's worst operating system ever.  :P

It would not be economically feasible to put the resources towards such a version, obviously. So I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you.
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MokMok

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Re: Ship Simulator: The Great Scam
« Reply #19 on: March 30, 2014, 16:20:51 »

Or someone in the Linux-community should take the initiative to develop an open source ShipSimulator-like game. Is there any ShipSim-like Linux game, because I have made Linux Mint as my default OS. I still have Dual-Boot on which I can boot into Windows XP for running the ShipSim games.

I don't know if ShipSim will run in a Windows XP Virtual Box in Linux.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2014, 16:27:42 by MokMok »
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K Jack

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Re: Ship Simulator: The Great Scam
« Reply #20 on: March 30, 2014, 19:17:15 »

Can't you just upgrade the operating software from XP to Windows 7 or 8 MokMok? You already know that Microsoft would discontinued support for XP shortly. You know, when people keep talking about Linux i thought they only talking about the older OS use on mainframe computers but i didn't know that Linux has different versions.

Regards
K Jack
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Captain Jack, explorer of seven seas.

saltydog

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Re: Ship Simulator: The Great Scam
« Reply #21 on: March 30, 2014, 19:20:43 »

I wonder how long XP will be in that list. Quite a lot of companies run it..
« Last Edit: March 31, 2014, 09:01:05 by saltydog »
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Captain Cadet

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Re: Ship Simulator: The Great Scam
« Reply #22 on: March 31, 2014, 10:13:12 »

I wonder how long XP will be in that list. Quite a lot of companies run it..
Not long I expect - I go to go around a few companies in a few weeks upgrading windows XP to Windows 7 or 8 - their is an upgrade culture its just happing slow. I wont be supprized in 10 years time to see if the same happens to Windows 7
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Captain Cadet
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Dosedmonkey

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Re: Ship Simulator: The Great Scam
« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2014, 00:40:58 »


This first post is a long rant for nothing. If you think you can develop a better simulator go ahead. Here is my reasons.

Water physics are very complicated.

You state you work on ships, not airplanes, so how can you account for how realistic air simulators are?

To create complicated physics that work on normal spec home machines is an achievement alone.

The game costs a lot less then a £100,000+ type ship simulator you would find in a college.

It is a game, like all other simulators, sold to house holders, and as past releases have shown, this is popular with the majority.

This is the best I have used yet, complaining won't make it any less the best!
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paulusfiret

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Re: Ship Simulator: The Great Scam
« Reply #24 on: April 25, 2014, 16:16:50 »

Hello to All,
For Dosedmonkey; I am not sure to whom your messaged was directed to, but let me tell you that I am also working with ships, that I was sitting for the first time in my live in the pilot's seat of a small plane and was surprisingly requested -as a kind of challenge- to take over the controls. I took over the manual controls and could, with keeping a straight face, adjust- fly- and do whatever was necessary, thanks to my longterm Flightsim experience, this experiences is going back to the eighties with ATP, SF4 etc....

Thanks to the people, who are that time complaining -and/or giving good suggestions to FS, they were able to reach the excellent standard it is having now. Together with their open policy that 3rd parties could make improvements, was another factor of their success. I mentioned before that I can not even put wrongly located buoys in the Rotterdam New Waterway at the correct positions, nor adding navigation lights, like the high- and low tower lights (the paddestoels) at Hook of Holland, etc. (For Mad-Fred).
I had already stated that I could understand that implementing the water effect would be quit difficult, but also that is not the case for the wind effect. There are same price classed games who have this feature incorporated, so there is no technically excuse for Vstep for not considering this.

For Mad-Fred; Regrettable there is a kind of habit of first admitting to a certain truth in a message and then to continue with some statements like 'little silly' etc. If I am thinking in the same way, than it is a 'little silly' that I can set the weather to 'force 9' and enter the Berghaven as like sailing on the Bommeer during a picnic time........
I had also stated that I have bought all versions of the Shipsimulator and that my writing had as target to give some wake-up calls to the developing team. Nothing more and nothing less. The label 'Complaining' is applicable for people who are not buying the games.

Furthermore, this subject was started because some-one had used abusive language and the follow-up comments were all -correctly- against the use of abusive language, but without further discussing the real topic of that particular subject.

Indeed, FS is existing a long time and went over the years through a rough period. Therefore Shipsim should look at the available technics and standards for useful choices. They don't need to start from scratch, something what FS, to a certain extend, had to do. We also have the example of the Railsimulator, who went from bad to acceptable good.
If would like to bring-out a new tophit record, I would not start with the wax plates, right? (Maybe I should do!).

k/rgds
PaulusFiret
Singapore


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