Copyright discussion (was RNLI)

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[Tugboats007]

I'm sorry, but I for one do not understand why V-Step thinks they need permission from someone, party or group to put a graphic representation of a vessel into there sim. Do any of you think every person who repaints an aircraft for use in FS, ether real world airlines or virutal airlines asks, "Is it ok". No is the answer. It is the same as the reskinners in MSTS. We dont ask CSX or Norfork Southern if it's ok to repaint and Loco or Boxcar with there colors. Why in the world dose V-Step think they must? This just kills me. I am a little baffeled as to what is going on with them.

Can we get somone from V-Step to chim in and tell us what there logic behind not allowing repaints and other addons to happen. This Sim could be as great as MSFS or MSTS ever thought about being.

Just my thoughts about it.

Tugboats007

[Captain Davies]

They must ask because they plan to use these models to make a profit.  If they were to give them away for free it would be a different matter but the laws on even this are still a little unclear. 

[cargohauler]

I would love to see flood gates in the sim. It would be SOOOO cool to have it happen.

[Stuart2007]

They must ask because they plan to use these models to make a profit.  If they were to give them away for free it would be a different matter but the laws on even this are still a little unclear. 

Pretty well the case... I think we are about to go bak down the 'copyright' arguement again, hey Capt. D.

Tugboats007: Once you create something (in this case the RNLI logo and flag) the person or organisation AUTOMATICALLY gains copyright (proving it is a seperate issue, but who would dispute the RNLI own their logos etc).

Whether you breach that copyright for personal gain or not is irrelevant. If you make a copy of an airline livery and distribute it (or even keep it on your own computer) you are still breaching copyright. The only difference between you doing that and Vstep doing it is the likelihood of being sued.

One simple example: If you were to design a model ship, airplane- whatever and I came along and copied it and sold it/ or gave it away- would you mind? What would you do?

Stu

[Dev]

I dont undertand why the RNLI would be reluctant, if the RNLI an Vstep split the profits the game certainly wont portray a bad image for them. And many who buy Ship simulator already go to sea for work or pleasure so most of us would be willing to buy it just as a donation i for one think its a fantastic idea, fair play

[Captain Davies]

I dont undertand why the RNLI would be reluctant, if the RNLI an Vstep split the profits the game certainly wont portray a bad image for them. And many who buy Ship simulator already go to sea for work or pleasure so most of us would be willing to buy it just as a donation i for one think its a fantastic idea, fair play

The RNLI probably want to consider every possible outcome first.  For one thing, it won't look to good for their image if someone uses their boats for a bout of Destruction Derby on the high seas and then puts a video of it on YouTube. 

At the same time, as I said earlier, it can help improve people's understanding of the RNLI's work and the dangers of the sea, which would be a huge help for the RNLI.  It's all a matter of weighing the positives against the negatives and that will take time for the RNLI to do.     

Ultimately I think the RNLI will agree, though there may be conditions involved.

[Stuart2007]

Hang on a min chaps... I think this is getting from a 'how about this idea...' through to lets bash X for being reluctant when they haven't even been approached.

There is so much to consider in things like this. Yes, the vstep chaps sound decent people who I am sure would support charities (especially boat based charities) but they are a commercial outfit and any co-operation with charities is always as much commercially driven as it is philanthropic.

May I suggest, especially if this works its way into suggestions and future requests, that the discussion would be better centered around what it should be about and leave the powers that be to decide if its a possible and then, and ONLY then for THEM to consider the attitude of the RNLI.

Stu

[Tugboats007]

If anyone has a problem with allowing there Name, Logo to be used in the Sim a small part has todo with V-Step themselves. I just look closely at there main web page about SS08 and I see that they took off the section where it talks about being able to SINK THE SHIPS. First who in there right mind would give anyone permission to portray there boats or ships when the image is out there that one of the reasons people bought this Sim was to be able to SINK SHIPS.

I for one know that no where in ether MSFS or MSTS have ether company put out that one of the things you can do is Crash YOUR AIRLINER with all aboard or Derail your train. It just so happens that as in real life if you make a bad landing or something else that you should not do in an aircraft you are going to crash. In MSTS if you dont pay attention to the speed limits you will derail as in real life.

It's great that V-Step has made this Sim as real life as they can which means if you hit something or allow another vessel to it you, you are probably going to sink. I think it should have not been used as a selling point. Since SS08 came out I have read countless posts from the children out there both young and old crying, that there boats won't sink or that they dont sink properly.

I for one play the Sim not to sink ships but to entertain my mind with something challenging. Its the same reason I play both MSFS and MSTS. Plus they are all three just great fun.

My 2 cents,
Tugboats007

[Stuart2007]

Well, P&O is one of the oldest and most respected shipping companies in the world and I don't think they seem too bothered about it.

I take your point, but I don't think that it is likely to be a big issue for many companies.

Stu

[mvsmith]

Since SS08 came out I have read countless posts from the children out there both young and old crying, that there boats won't sink or that they dont sink properly.

Well, someone finally used the “C” word.
Perhaps they’ll lose interest in the sim, and in posting, when they discover Spambot.
The mods should start editing for childishness, and leave us Adults our ****s, *******s, and  *** ***** **!.

Note: *s are mine.

[sotonvts]

The RNLI probably want to consider every possible outcome first.  For one thing, it won't look to good for their image if someone uses their boats for a bout of Destruction Derby on the high seas and then puts a video of it on YouTube. 

Being a Govenor member of the RNLI, you have made a spot on reply.

[Stuart2007]

Being a Govenor member of the RNLI, you have made a spot on reply.

You could always say the same thing about the toy boats the RNLI shops sell for kids- you could video the toy being subjected to a 'model storm' and then post it on youtube- would the RNLI stop selling them to protect its image?

Before anyone misunderstands that comment, it is to make a point and in NO way undermines the vital work done by the RNLI and its counterparts around the world.

Stu

[LucAtC]

Yes Stu, but there is a strong difference, they who buy the toys (the fathers!) are true RNLI supporters, unlike most buyers of ShipSim who dont care much of accidents at sea.
A positive point is that the RNLI boats are, as far as I know, selfrighting after capsizing. There is no need at all that they would be made "sinkable" in the game?
Regards,
Luc

[Stuart2007]

I take your point Luc. I think this topic has gone beyond the original would it be a good idea or not and has become an attempt to second-guess the RNLI board of directors.

Stu

[mvsmith]

Luc,
I don’t know if Player vessels can have an unsinkable tag, or if the sinking behavior is hand-crafted for each vessel. It would be nice if self-righting could be realistically emulated for those boats.
As has been observed, some vessels that shouldn’t be are sometimes self-righting in the sim.

Marty

[CAPFlyer]

Once you create something (in this case the RNLI logo and flag) the person or organisation AUTOMATICALLY gains copyright (proving it is a seperate issue, but who would dispute the RNLI own their logos etc).

Whether you breach that copyright for personal gain or not is irrelevant. If you make a copy of an airline livery and distribute it (or even keep it on your own computer) you are still breaching copyright. The only difference between you doing that and Vstep doing it is the likelihood of being sued.

Sorry Stuart, but that's not how copyright works either.  This whole thing was solved during court proceedings in the United States, UK, and the Hague several years ago after Papa Tango (a flightsim publisher) and AMR Corp (the parent company of American Airlines) entered into an exclusive licensing contract for the use of American Airlines & American Eagle on Microsoft Flight Simulator-related products.  What came of it was that in all three cases lawsuits were filed by sites that host freeware additions and successfully argued that a recreation of a livery and logo in an electronic form (such as a Flight Simulator airplane) did not constitute copyright infringement.  Subsequent to that, AMR was forced to allow anyone to use their livery and logos without restriction and PT was then taken to court and closed down due to some other less-than-legal practices being undertaken by its head, Peter Tishma, in regards to his general practicing of business and the pursuit of what was found to be an illegal exclusivity contract.

In short, if someone creates an RNLI lifeboat for free and provides it to others to use, they are not breaching copyright as long as they do not attempt to pass them off as their own (i.e. they use the word "repaint" or "representation" in the read-me or text file identification that accompanies the package that clearly defines the product as a representation and not an original design).

[Tugboats007]

Capflyer, Thank you very much for that response.

Tugboats007

[Stuart2007]

Thank you for your alternative offering of copyright law. However, I do not think you are right on this.

Here's an example that was on the radio this morning... The BBC has made X million by merchandising Doctor Who material- If I was to produce my own 'tardis' etc and make it clear that it was MY representation and not an OFFICIAL BBC item, would I not have breached copyright rules in your interpretation.

It is interesting as you clearly are an intelligent, articulate chap that we can both come up with different interpretations of the law.

A good place to look at one of the most absurd copyright rules in the world would be the easy group- trying to lay claim to every easy name on the planet- which has been thrown out of court time and again.

Stu

[Lifeboat]

Could i suggest that we start a new topic just for the copyright issue, as it is starting to show signs of pushing this one 'off topic'.

[mvsmith]

If I was to produce my own 'tardis' etc

Stu, a few years ago there was a Windows app called Tardis that set the clock from a choice of Internet time sources. It even used the blue cop box for its icon.
It has gone, not because the BBC lowered the boom, but because Microsoft built that capability into XP.
I should caution those who use the expression that it must be “Mickey Mouse™ outfit” lest you hear from Disney’s lawyers.
 

[Captain Davies]

A good place to look at one of the most absurd copyright rules in the world would be the easy group- trying to lay claim to every easy name on the planet- which has been thrown out of court time and again.

Do you mean the company that owns easyjet and easycruise?

[Stuart2007]

As copyright discussions keep jumping up (guilty as charged) I thought it would be a good idea to bring the discussion into one place.

Stu