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Poll

Had the Titanic not sunk in 1912 how long would it have survived?

Not through WWI
- 2 (8%)
WWI but not WWII
- 7 (28%)
WWII but not much after
- 8 (32%)
It was destined for disaster
- 5 (20%)
15 April 1912 was a fluke, it would be here today
- 2 (8%)
Undecided
- 0 (0%)
Other idea (post in comments)
- 1 (4%)

Total Members Voted: 23


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Author Topic: What are the odds? Would it survive?  (Read 8223 times)

Stuart2007

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Re: What are the odds? Would it survive?
« Reply #25 on: July 19, 2011, 20:32:21 »

For those mocking this young gentleman, perhaps rather than giving him a lecture on WW1 and WW2 (in any event you describe the symptom not the cause of both wars) you should direct him to the point he is confused on.

THe sinking of LUSITANIA, not tita...zzzz.....nic brought USA into WW1 and thus turned it into a truly world war. So he is to be commended for having SOME of it right!

BTW Both the assasination of AD Ferdinand and the invasion of Poland are widely considered the CAUSE of WW1 and WW2 respectively, they were merely events in the timeline- granted that they were significant points, but they were not the actual causes- (you need to see the Balkan separation movement and uprisings in "Yugoslavia" to understand the background).
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assassinator2.0

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Re: What are the odds? Would it survive?
« Reply #26 on: July 19, 2011, 20:44:49 »

For those mocking this young gentleman, perhaps rather than giving him a lecture on WW1 and WW2 (in any event you describe the symptom not the cause of both wars) you should direct him to the point he is confused on.

THe sinking of LUSITANIA, not tita...zzzz.....nic brought USA into WW1 and thus turned it into a truly world war. So he is to be commended for having SOME of it right!

BTW Both the assasination of AD Ferdinand and the invasion of Poland are widely considered the CAUSE of WW1 and WW2 respectively, they were merely events in the timeline- granted that they were significant points, but they were not the actual causes- (you need to see the Balkan separation movement and uprisings in "Yugoslavia" to understand the background).

ahh okay thank you! i will probably learn about this, this year! :)
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Stuart2007

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Re: What are the odds? Would it survive?
« Reply #27 on: July 22, 2011, 18:19:12 »

Assasinator2.0

If I may suggest, the period from 1930s - present is quite important as it is probably the biggest single turning point in history and defines our current way of life more than previous episodes. MY opinion, which will differ from many others, is that WW1 events don't really define our current way of life- save for the fact that a number of events from WW1 made it easier (but didn't directly cause) for the nazis to kick of WW2.

To fully appreciate the importance of this period, MANY current problems have been caused directly or indirectly from 1930s-. Take the Iraq/Afghan wars, 9/11, 7/7 etc- primarily due to the creation of the Israeli state; which in turn was due to the diaspora jews from Europe in WW2. Had hitler not massacred jews there would have been no need for the (botched) creation of Israel and it is likely that aq etc would not have come to prominence.

One can also see that many Countries have suffered economically since WW2. You can also see the carving up of Eastern Europe after WW2... None of this would have happened without WW2.

So you can see, if you look, many current problems or issues can be traced back- when you understand the origin of a problem it makes MUCH more sense; and hopefully if people learn history then such events won't be repeated in the future.

Sorry for the lecture! ;)
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assassinator2.0

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Re: What are the odds? Would it survive?
« Reply #28 on: July 22, 2011, 20:03:59 »

Assasinator2.0

If I may suggest, the period from 1930s - present is quite important as it is probably the biggest single turning point in history and defines our current way of life more than previous episodes. MY opinion, which will differ from many others, is that WW1 events don't really define our current way of life- save for the fact that a number of events from WW1 made it easier (but didn't directly cause) for the nazis to kick of WW2.

To fully appreciate the importance of this period, MANY current problems have been caused directly or indirectly from 1930s-. Take the Iraq/Afghan wars, 9/11, 7/7 etc- primarily due to the creation of the Israeli state; which in turn was due to the diaspora jews from Europe in WW2. Had hitler not massacred jews there would have been no need for the (botched) creation of Israel and it is likely that aq etc would not have come to prominence.

One can also see that many Countries have suffered economically since WW2. You can also see the carving up of Eastern Europe after WW2... None of this would have happened without WW2.

So you can see, if you look, many current problems or issues can be traced back- when you understand the origin of a problem it makes MUCH more sense; and hopefully if people learn history then such events won't be repeated in the future.

Sorry for the lecture! ;)
7/7? what was that? And i love information about history and what not. talk all you want! :)
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Smithacus

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Re: What are the odds? Would it survive?
« Reply #29 on: August 07, 2011, 20:23:32 »

ahh okay thank you! i will probably learn about this, this year! :)

It's been a few weeks since I was on here last, I was on a vacation.

My advice to your comment is don't wait to learn, seek the information at once. In this day and age we have the internet. The good and bad of the internet is that the good part is it's quick, you can gather key words and main ideas on subjects, the bad is it hardly goes into the depth and detail the printed text does and often, to this day, there are errors, omissions, and too many opinons influencing the historical and factual records vis a vis the instant publishing on the internet. However, take those keywords and ideas and use the library to further the research.

A word on Cause vs. Catalyst

cat·a·lyst/ˈkatl-ist/Noun
1. A substance that increases the rate of a chemical reaction without itself undergoing any permanent chemical change.
2. A person or thing that precipitates an event.

It's always important to define terms. This helps to eliminate confusion and it lets everyone know exactly what is meant.  To stay on topic of WWI, the causes of this war were many, such as the build up alliances to one side or the other of the European powers. You had the Triple Entente, allying Great Britain, France, and Russia. And then there was the Triple Alliance where Germany, Austria-Hungary, and Italy. The catalysts are probably better know as "the last straw" the final event to "tip the scales" or begin the biggerbiggest event.

According to the text "The Unfinished Nation: A Concise History of the American People" 2nd Ed. By Alan Brinkley (1997) pg. 634, there was an Anglo-German rivalry which "...may have been the most important underlying source of the tensions that led to World War I, but it was not the immediate cause of the outbreak."

Enter the catalyst: June 28, 1914, Archduke Franz Ferdinand, heir to the throne of Austro-Hungarian Empire, is assassinated in Sarajevo, the capital of Bosnia, while there on an official state visit. Within two months Europe was at war, or at least the two alliances were at war with each other. Germany wants to punish Serbia, Serbia calls on help from Russia, and it all snowballs from there.

US Involvement and Lusitania

President Wilson was committed to staying neutral. In the beginning of the war the US logic was trade should still be possibly between the US and Germany and the US and Britain, because of the neutrality position. But Britain had established at naval blockade against Germany and the US quickly realized they could do without trade with the Germans but not with the British so therefore that's were the economic trade gravitated toward. Germany's retaliation to the naval blockade was a new instrument of warfare: submarines. Their objective was to sink all enemy vessels on sight: military and merchant. May 7, 1915 was the sinking of the Lusitanian. 1198 souls lost, 128 of them Americans. According to the Brinkley text (pg635-36) the ship was carrying munitions. Despite this incident, it was not the cause, nor the sole reason, for America sending troops to Europe for WWI, it was only the beginning of a series of events, mostly naval related, that would ultimately lead to US war involvement.

Germany's Policy

Germany continued it's unrestricted submarine warfare sinking any enemy ship as fair game. A French vessel, the Sussex, was hit weeks later, also involving American citizens. Again, Wilson insisted Germany stop, yet no other action was taken. Throughout 1916, a re-election year for Wilson, the president campaigned on passivism and not going to war, despite continued antagonism by Germany. Wilson wins re-election, but begins almost immediately on preparing for war. His idea was that the US had no material gains in going to war. The only objective was to establish a new world. "Peace without victory" - the aim of his idea of the league of nations. However, the American catalyst to get involved in the fighting was soon to come.

Zimmerman Telegram

January 1917: Germany begins a major ground offensive on France. At the same time they ramp up their unrestrictive submarine warfare to include any and all American vessels. February 25: British intercept a message from Germany to Mexico promising to help reclaim lost territories, like Texas, if they help join to fight against the US. In March, the Russian czar was toppled and replaced by a republican form of government, which pleased President Wilson because he did not want to ally with a monarchy. Also that month, 3 American ships were torpedoed by Germany submarines. This was the final straw for Wilson, who took his appeal to Congress to ask for a declaration of war against Germany. It took from April 2nd to the 6th for Congress to pass a resolution under a hot debate. In the end it passed, but 50 representatives and 6 senators voted against it.

Stalemate

By now both sides of Europe were at an awful standstill. The German ground offensive had ended the conflict like they wanted, but their subs were sinking 1 in 4 ships at sea. America initially got involved through navy only, but it was quickly realized that a land war was necessary. A draft was passed thus the US involvement was fully realized.

All of the above was taken from the Brinkley text mentioned, from Ch. 23: "America and the Great War," pgs 633-640. It's too bad this is the only book I could find in my collection that goes into even this much detail about WWI. Paying a visit to my parents house and pouring over the many, many Time-Life and other history books my dad collected over the decades (he's been a history teach since well before I was born) I come to find that most of his collections center around WWII. Even the "This Fabulous Century" collection, by Time-Life, was very limited in it's particulars on WWI, although it illustrates the personal life both on the home front and soldiers very well. Now my interest is piqued and I'm going to have to find a book exclusive on the topic of WWI.

I'm glad I held onto most of my college texts. It seems I get more use out of them now than back then. So there’s today’s impromptu history lesson. Hopefully you’ll be ahead of the class now.
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assassinator2.0

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  • Posts: 448
Re: What are the odds? Would it survive?
« Reply #30 on: August 07, 2011, 22:30:59 »

It's been a few weeks since I was on here last, I was on a vacation.

My advice to your comment is don't wait to learn, seek the information at once. In this day and age we have the internet. The good and bad of the internet is that the good part is it's quick, you can gather key words and main ideas on subjects, the bad is it hardly goes into the depth and detail the printed text does and often, to this day, there are errors, omissions, and too many opinons influencing the historical and factual records vis a vis the instant publishing on the internet. However, take those keywords and ideas and use the library to further the research.

A word on Cause vs. Catalyst

cat·a·lyst/ˈkatl-ist/Noun
1. A substance that increases the rate of a chemical reaction without itself undergoing any permanent chemical change.
2. A person or thing that precipitates an event.

It's always important to define terms. This helps to eliminate confusion and it lets everyone know exactly what is meant.  To stay on topic of WWI, the causes of this war were many, such as the build up alliances to one side or the other of the European powers. You had the Triple Entente, allying Great Britain, France, and Russia. And then there was the Triple Alliance where Germany, Austria-Hungary, and Italy. The catalysts are probably better know as "the last straw" the final event to "tip the scales" or begin the biggerbiggest event.

According to the text "The Unfinished Nation: A Concise History of the American People" 2nd Ed. By Alan Brinkley (1997) pg. 634, there was an Anglo-German rivalry which "...may have been the most important underlying source of the tensions that led to World War I, but it was not the immediate cause of the outbreak."

Enter the catalyst: June 28, 1914, Archduke Franz Ferdinand, heir to the throne of Austro-Hungarian Empire, is assassinated in Sarajevo, the capital of Bosnia, while there on an official state visit. Within two months Europe was at war, or at least the two alliances were at war with each other. Germany wants to punish Serbia, Serbia calls on help from Russia, and it all snowballs from there.

US Involvement and Lusitania

President Wilson was committed to staying neutral. In the beginning of the war the US logic was trade should still be possibly between the US and Germany and the US and Britain, because of the neutrality position. But Britain had established at naval blockade against Germany and the US quickly realized they could do without trade with the Germans but not with the British so therefore that's were the economic trade gravitated toward. Germany's retaliation to the naval blockade was a new instrument of warfare: submarines. Their objective was to sink all enemy vessels on sight: military and merchant. May 7, 1915 was the sinking of the Lusitanian. 1198 souls lost, 128 of them Americans. According to the Brinkley text (pg635-36) the ship was carrying munitions. Despite this incident, it was not the cause, nor the sole reason, for America sending troops to Europe for WWI, it was only the beginning of a series of events, mostly naval related, that would ultimately lead to US war involvement.

Germany's Policy

Germany continued it's unrestricted submarine warfare sinking any enemy ship as fair game. A French vessel, the Sussex, was hit weeks later, also involving American citizens. Again, Wilson insisted Germany stop, yet no other action was taken. Throughout 1916, a re-election year for Wilson, the president campaigned on passivism and not going to war, despite continued antagonism by Germany. Wilson wins re-election, but begins almost immediately on preparing for war. His idea was that the US had no material gains in going to war. The only objective was to establish a new world. "Peace without victory" - the aim of his idea of the league of nations. However, the American catalyst to get involved in the fighting was soon to come.

Zimmerman Telegram

January 1917: Germany begins a major ground offensive on France. At the same time they ramp up their unrestrictive submarine warfare to include any and all American vessels. February 25: British intercept a message from Germany to Mexico promising to help reclaim lost territories, like Texas, if they help join to fight against the US. In March, the Russian czar was toppled and replaced by a republican form of government, which pleased President Wilson because he did not want to ally with a monarchy. Also that month, 3 American ships were torpedoed by Germany submarines. This was the final straw for Wilson, who took his appeal to Congress to ask for a declaration of war against Germany. It took from April 2nd to the 6th for Congress to pass a resolution under a hot debate. In the end it passed, but 50 representatives and 6 senators voted against it.

Stalemate

By now both sides of Europe were at an awful standstill. The German ground offensive had ended the conflict like they wanted, but their subs were sinking 1 in 4 ships at sea. America initially got involved through navy only, but it was quickly realized that a land war was necessary. A draft was passed thus the US involvement was fully realized.

All of the above was taken from the Brinkley text mentioned, from Ch. 23: "America and the Great War," pgs 633-640. It's too bad this is the only book I could find in my collection that goes into even this much detail about WWI. Paying a visit to my parents house and pouring over the many, many Time-Life and other history books my dad collected over the decades (he's been a history teach since well before I was born) I come to find that most of his collections center around WWII. Even the "This Fabulous Century" collection, by Time-Life, was very limited in it's particulars on WWI, although it illustrates the personal life both on the home front and soldiers very well. Now my interest is piqued and I'm going to have to find a book exclusive on the topic of WWI.

I'm glad I held onto most of my college texts. It seems I get more use out of them now than back then. So there’s today’s impromptu history lesson. Hopefully you’ll be ahead of the class now.

thank you!  i wonder why they dont have particulars on WWI?
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Wave Music

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Re: What are the odds? Would it survive?
« Reply #31 on: August 07, 2011, 23:40:51 »

"Had the Titanic not sunk in 1912 how long would it have survived?"

Until the next iceberg on the way back to England or the first torpedo, because so was settled by God & nothing you can do about it.
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Smithacus

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Re: What are the odds? Would it survive?
« Reply #32 on: August 08, 2011, 00:00:17 »

thank you!  i wonder why they dont have particulars on WWI?

If you're refering to the Time-Life editions, which usually can be found still in most libraries, the scope of 20th Century topic was so broad and there are so many volumes they had to keep it generic. I want to say the first editions published in the 1970s coving the years 1870-1970, mostly by decade. Then when the 20th Century came near a close (weird that I can say that now) they revitalized and updated and reissued the series using more books not limited by decade but more on specific topics like rock & roll, sports, immigrants, flight, etc. But even comparing the old and new editions the text and photos were the same, just the layout was altered. Keep in mind that Time-Life may not go into in depth studies for the purpose of keeping a broad audience.

If you've ever had a journalism class you may have heard that newspaper and magazines write their articles on a 9th grade education level. In other words, it's not technical and not too simple, it fits the average intelligence of the general public. Special books published by news magazines are going follow that model.

Also, WWII tends to get more coverage than WWI. Probably because it was bigger and better documented. However, don't get me wrong, Time-Life does a good job at historical publications, especially since they were around during those wars, and that's were they get most of their articles and photos, and their style of writing and presentation appeals to a larger audience. To get super in depth coverage the single or even multi-volume works written by one or a couple of authors give the best details. As an example: Shelby Footes 3 volume masterpiece on the Civil War. That's like War & Peace x 3.

Incidently, I just took a look at www.timelife.com and they only have music and videos. When I search for their books I keep getting suggestions for Amazon.com and ebay. They must not be much into the book business anymore. In the old days before internet you'd become aware of these books by those inserts in Time or Life Magazines where you put your address on the card and mail it in for free then they'd send you the first volume and a bill. My dad sent in for the WWII series, got 25 volumes out of 28, 1 new one every 6 weeks, and only paid about $7/ea. It's a shame they don't still do something like that but the computers and video games are robbing hours that could be spent reading books. And I'm just as guilty on that part.
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assassinator2.0

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Re: What are the odds? Would it survive?
« Reply #33 on: August 08, 2011, 18:11:57 »

If you're refering to the Time-Life editions, which usually can be found still in most libraries, the scope of 20th Century topic was so broad and there are so many volumes they had to keep it generic. I want to say the first editions published in the 1970s coving the years 1870-1970, mostly by decade. Then when the 20th Century came near a close (weird that I can say that now) they revitalized and updated and reissued the series using more books not limited by decade but more on specific topics like rock & roll, sports, immigrants, flight, etc. But even comparing the old and new editions the text and photos were the same, just the layout was altered. Keep in mind that Time-Life may not go into in depth studies for the purpose of keeping a broad audience.

If you've ever had a journalism class you may have heard that newspaper and magazines write their articles on a 9th grade education level. In other words, it's not technical and not too simple, it fits the average intelligence of the general public. Special books published by news magazines are going follow that model.

Also, WWII tends to get more coverage than WWI. Probably because it was bigger and better documented. However, don't get me wrong, Time-Life does a good job at historical publications, especially since they were around during those wars, and that's were they get most of their articles and photos, and their style of writing and presentation appeals to a larger audience. To get super in depth coverage the single or even multi-volume works written by one or a couple of authors give the best details. As an example: Shelby Footes 3 volume masterpiece on the Civil War. That's like War & Peace x 3.

Incidently, I just took a look at www.timelife.com and they only have music and videos. When I search for their books I keep getting suggestions for Amazon.com and ebay. They must not be much into the book business anymore. In the old days before internet you'd become aware of these books by those inserts in Time or Life Magazines where you put your address on the card and mail it in for free then they'd send you the first volume and a bill. My dad sent in for the WWII series, got 25 volumes out of 28, 1 new one every 6 weeks, and only paid about $7/ea. It's a shame they don't still do something like that but the computers and video games are robbing hours that could be spent reading books. And I'm just as guilty on that part.

ohh okay. thanks for everything! :D
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Stuart2007

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Re: What are the odds? Would it survive?
« Reply #34 on: August 21, 2011, 12:37:08 »

One important bit to add onto that, ass2.

ALWAYS use multiple sources for research. No one person can ever have the exact answer and different people have different interpretations on any event- so get a broad spectrum (even if it is from people that you initially disagree with)
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NBRYANT24

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Re: What are the odds? Would it survive?
« Reply #35 on: August 21, 2011, 18:28:19 »

The Titanic would have been scrapped by now, just like the rest of the fleet.
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Stuart2007

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Re: What are the odds? Would it survive?
« Reply #36 on: August 23, 2011, 11:25:54 »

The Titanic would have been scrapped by now, just like the rest of the fleet.

Really? That's an interesting take on it. I for one hadn't considered that possibility. ;)
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floatboat

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Re: What are the odds? Would it survive?
« Reply #37 on: August 29, 2011, 21:53:59 »

So in a way its sinking made it last longer  :doh:
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Stuart2007

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Re: What are the odds? Would it survive?
« Reply #38 on: August 29, 2011, 22:44:45 »

So in a way its sinking made it last longer  :doh:

Excellent take on ship preservation there! Perhaps someone should tell the owners of QE2, Waverley, HMS Belfast etc. ;)
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floatboat

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Re: What are the odds? Would it survive?
« Reply #39 on: August 30, 2011, 18:31:42 »

Of course, the means of its preservation werent exactly gentle  :P
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Rbsanford

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Re: What are the odds? Would it survive?
« Reply #40 on: August 30, 2011, 20:32:28 »

Excellent take on ship preservation there! Perhaps someone should tell the owners of QE2, Waverley, HMS Belfast etc. ;)

if those ships are sunk, that not only preserves the ships longer, but also provides a home for aquatic animals.

just look at titanic: 99 years later, you see all these deep-sea fish and crabs an whatnot roaming the decks.

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Stuart2007

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Re: What are the odds? Would it survive?
« Reply #41 on: September 03, 2011, 08:40:28 »

if those ships are sunk, that not only preserves the ships longer, but also provides a home for aquatic animals.

just look at titanic: 99 years later, you see all these deep-sea fish and crabs an whatnot roaming the decks.



I'm not sure that's what bruce ismay had in mind when he ordered that boring boat
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assassinator2.0

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Re: What are the odds? Would it survive?
« Reply #42 on: September 03, 2011, 08:49:14 »

I'm not sure that's what bruce ismay had in mind when he ordered that boring boat


he shouldnt have ordered to take some crucial lifeboats away so the first class passengers can "have a better view" and "they didnt pay to stare at lifeboats"
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TJK

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Re: What are the odds? Would it survive?
« Reply #43 on: September 03, 2011, 08:52:52 »

Can i ask watt are the point of this topic? I do not understand this speculations her, as i see Titanic are not among us anymore she are on the sea floor sunken and this is a speculation so  i repeat, watt's the point?
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assassinator2.0

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Re: What are the odds? Would it survive?
« Reply #44 on: September 03, 2011, 09:01:54 »

think what would have been the odds of Titanic surviving to this day?





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TJK

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Re: What are the odds? Would it survive?
« Reply #45 on: September 03, 2011, 09:25:44 »

Hi assassinator2.0

to post a quote only that are spam
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Ballast

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Re: What are the odds? Would it survive?
« Reply #46 on: September 03, 2011, 10:37:35 »

If the Titanic didn't sink that day, she would be scrapped by now and nobody would think of her like we do now. She would just be another ocean liner from the past  ;)
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Ralphy

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Re: What are the odds? Would it survive?
« Reply #47 on: September 03, 2011, 13:02:47 »

Hi assassinator2.0

to post a quote only that are spam

Tore

Assassinator was quoting what this topic is about to answer your question :thumbs:

The original point of the topic was to think whether or not Titanic would have survived through to today if she hadn't sunk on that night.
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assassinator2.0

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Re: What are the odds? Would it survive?
« Reply #48 on: September 03, 2011, 20:01:32 »

i did not mean to do it as spam. cuz answering your question :)
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saltydog

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Re: What are the odds? Would it survive?
« Reply #49 on: September 03, 2011, 20:09:17 »

Still a rather silly topic..What would have become of Marilyn Monroe if she hadn't died when she did?
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