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Author Topic: fast ferry arcade  (Read 12650 times)

Stuart2007

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Re: fast ferry arcade
« Reply #25 on: September 19, 2007, 22:54:39 »

I read on the P&O website (Carnival) that the Oriana and Aurora can be moored within 6 inches (15cm for metric people) of target. Impressive.

Stu
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captseaton

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Re: fast ferry arcade
« Reply #26 on: September 20, 2007, 03:17:06 »

If the handling of the ships was too accurate most people would never be able to complete the missions and would soon get annoyed with the game and give up.  There has to be an element of an arcade game about it for people to want to buy it.  I don't know what happens in the professional version of the sim which Vstep market, but as i said above I don't think the game as it stands is accurate enough to be used as a professional ship handling simulator.

I totally agree with you, Clanky. If the game were "too" realistic, I couldn't undock the Titanic from Southampton without tugboat assistance. Plus, the whole evolution would take almost an hour. I think people would just stop playing.  :o
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captseaton

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Re: fast ferry arcade
« Reply #27 on: September 20, 2007, 03:24:03 »

I read on the P&O website (Carnival) that the Oriana and Aurora can be moored within 6 inches (15cm for metric people) of target. Impressive.

Stu

It is impressive...

When the Queen Mary 2 arrived in Fort Lauderdale after completing her maiden voyage, she was escorted by around 14 news helicopters, tugboats spraying water, and a billion dollar US Navy AEGIS destroyer. The 506 foot long USS Carney (DDG-64) then picked up two tugboats for docking assistance, while the 1132 foot long QM2 proceeded to dock using her three bow thrusters and azimuthing pods. Keep in mind this was the first time the QM2 had ever visited Port Everglades, and the pressure of all these people watching.

http://travel.webshots.com/album/547043271mfrjFk

 
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shipfan55

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Re: fast ferry arcade
« Reply #28 on: September 20, 2007, 20:54:20 »

nice...

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Kevinmcg_ships

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Re: fast ferry arcade
« Reply #29 on: September 20, 2007, 21:47:21 »

Shipfan, VSTEP has no direct comeptition, so if they are not told what they need to improve they may not look to it as soon as if they were told. It's to help them too! :]

Actually there is another ship simulator program out there! Although you can't get it in shops, you can buy it on-line and download it yourself.

The way I see it - SS2008 is a game, which I am very grateful when you see how much there are train sim, car racing, flight sims, shoot-em-up's, sports (the list goes on and on....) games on the market for PC, PS2, X-Box, PS3 etc.

I'm sure in the future Ship Simulator will become more realistic. Give the guys at VSTEP the chance to learn how to walk before they can run!  ;)

Kev
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Stuart2007

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Re: fast ferry arcade
« Reply #30 on: September 21, 2007, 12:02:38 »

I was actually in a private discussion with another moderator. I downloaded 'the other sim' and I have to admit I enjoyed it... for a short while anyway. Yes, it has a few features that SS lacks.

The problem was (and I confess, like most here, not really knowing how a large ship really feels to manouver) it just didn't feel convincing at all. And the graphics were... basic.

The killer point came when I ran two pcs side by side. SS on one, ** on the other... I challenge anyone to do the same and then call SS an arcade game. That said, I hope the developers never underestimate any competitors. It would be a bad thing to assume the other one will never progress beyond its current simplicity.

Stu

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Osprey

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Re: fast ferry arcade
« Reply #31 on: September 23, 2007, 02:50:30 »

If the handling of the ships was too accurate most people would never be able to complete the missions and would soon get annoyed with the game and give up.  There has to be an element of an arcade game about it for people to want to buy it.  I don't know what happens in the professional version of the sim which Vstep market, but as i said above I don't think the game as it stands is accurate enough to be used as a professional ship handling simulator.


I think this is quite correct, but the arcade needs to be miminal.  Real effects can be far more engaging than most arcade stuff.  When you get any ship - or even something as small as a pilot boat - and subject it to volitile wind and current based and things quickly get a bit hairy.  And the saying is true that the bigger they are, the more slowly and the more surely things will go wrong if you make a mistake.   Think in terms of miles ahead....   It is like a strategy game - a role playing game (when we go multi-player I will most likely aim to be a harbour patrol boat and/or a tug -- and missions could involve arresting speeders, assisting berthing, etc.  Roles.

Thinking of real effects: I do believe that taking account of real wind speeds and current and/or tidal flows would require very little programming effort when plotting the direction of a ship.  You work out the effect of the throttles and rudders as one vector and slip in the vector equation regarding the ships actual speed and direction after accounting for the various forces at work to change that direction and speed.  Perhaps this should be posted to technical or improvements to the game for review by our design team? 

More of us may score low at first because of our unfamilarity with tide, current, and wind on large ships, but it would make things exciting and still playable.   Indeed people would "get it" fairly quickly - and for those who don't a tutoring dialogue could be built into the waypoint dialgoues (for example: explaining what a spring line is; or informing you of the distance needed to stop a tanker, etc) 

I find the small boats in this game "feel right" and are most enjoyable - but stunt jumps interest me far less than rescuing folk or running a tight ferry schedule.

The final thing that would be nice in the game are the basic rules of the road; who yields to who is not that complicated - that is what computers are good for - and the real players will be the only one who make mistakes regarding those roles -so many mistakes and you lose rank, better performance yields higher rank more quickly.  The multiple player version definitley will need some kind of admirality court to fire the asses of those who constantly endanger other ships.... let them stay in the game as a rowboat or something.... ;D

- Richard + (Osprey)
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Stuart2007

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Re: fast ferry arcade
« Reply #32 on: September 23, 2007, 18:42:39 »


Thinking of real effects: I do believe that taking account of real wind speeds and current and/or tidal flows would require very little programming effort

With great respect, do you programme conmputers professionally?

There has to be an element of an arcade game about it for people to want to buy it.  I don't know what happens in the professional version of the sim which Vstep market, but as i said above I don't think the game as it stands is accurate enough to be used as a professional ship handling simulator.

At what point has Vstep said that they are aiming shipsim 08 as a professional training tool for manouvering? As far as I recall, they haven't.

Again, I repeat my point that you wouldn't use MSFS as a means to learn to fly, yet it provides fun and amusement (as well as SOME theoretical training, I suppose) to thousands of enthusiasts AND professionals.

Stu
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clanky

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Re: fast ferry arcade
« Reply #33 on: October 06, 2007, 11:42:00 »

Sorry it has taken me so long to reply Stuart, I have been away doing it for real for a couple of weeks. (the game is much more fun! :D)

As I understand it VSTEP market a version of shipsim called shipsim pro, I have not used this version, but my understanding of it is that it is the ship sim game (2006 version at present i believe?) with inputs and outputs to and from real electronic navigation aids such as GPS, radar, electronic charts etc..

I did see something on the website about this version being aimed at colleges, which is were the comments came from, as I said, it would be a useful (and fun) way of teaching use of these navigation aids, but not to teach realistic ship handling.

I have used professional full mission ship simulators in the past and as fantastic as shipsim is it is not even in the same league as these in terms of realism (and as i said above it shouldn't be).  I'm not griping, I think it is a fantastic game and I love playing it, but people need to realise that it is a game and not a professional simulator.
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agibbs98

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Re: fast ferry arcade
« Reply #34 on: October 06, 2007, 12:22:46 »

Hey all,  :)

most likely the majority of us have never sailed any of the ships on SS08 in real life. So we don't know how they are meant to handle. So we think its realistic and believeable controls but i see where your coming from. Perhaps this might not be a problem in Ship Sim Pro?

For the developers to get it right it would mean employing real life Sailors or going to sail all the ships they create which is expensive to do.

Thanks,
Andrew  ;D
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paciom

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Re: fast ferry arcade
« Reply #35 on: October 06, 2007, 19:29:49 »

wot do you no about fsat ferrys??
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clanky

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Re: fast ferry arcade
« Reply #36 on: October 06, 2007, 23:43:55 »


For the developers to get it right it would mean employing real life Sailors or going to sail all the ships they create which is expensive to do.

Thanks,
Andrew  ;D

From a few posts I have read on the forums i think the game designers did actually go and sail on some of the ships which have been modelled (obviously the Titanic may have been a little impractical :D) and i am sure that they must have had some input from professional seafarers, but the physics involved in real ship handling is incredibly complex and professional ship simulators require huge amounts of computing power to come close to anything realistic.

Remember that the game needs to:

a) be playable by people who do not have years of training

b) be enjoyable

c) be capable of running on a home PC or laptop.

If the physics were modelled too realistically then none of these would be possible.
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[RWP]DJM

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Re: fast ferry arcade
« Reply #37 on: October 07, 2007, 07:49:24 »

Remember that the game needs to:

a) be playable by people who do not have years of training

b) be enjoyable

c) be capable of running on a home PC or laptop.

If the physics were modelled too realistically then none of these would be possible.

Excellent points there clanky, I agree :)

I am of course, speaking from being in category 'a' ;)
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JHB

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Re: fast ferry arcade
« Reply #38 on: October 07, 2007, 08:16:41 »

I’m also in category A but I still think that this game will need levels of challenge where you advance from one level to another and where you feel difference between the ship types and where you need to learn something instead of just sailing around and screaming “yiiihaaa”. :P
The game becomes quite boring if the whole game is far too easy and you can just maneuver big ships like they where some small cruisers. ::)

If this ranking system is going to have a meaning then the game should contain more challenging boats where you go from newbie to pro level, or where you have to advance to be able to sail the ship. I see that we got locked missions where you need to unlock them. Why not have locked ships where you need to do something first (advance to another level) before you can take command on the ship?

When you play these car racing games you have to for example win some races to unlock a new car. So can it be for Ship Simulator but not racing. Let’s say that you have to complete some special missions and then you unlock a new ship. :)

Another idea is all these moneys we get in this score system (if it’s still active?). Let’s say that you reach a level of virtual moneys where you can buy yourself a new ship from some virtual ship yard and then you unlock another ship which you can use in the game.

Summary: Complete a mission and you unlock a new ship (just an idea) ;)
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clanky

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Re: fast ferry arcade
« Reply #39 on: October 07, 2007, 08:35:35 »

From the point of view of realism, maybe the way forward is to have game play options such as having the ships effected by wind and tide, which can be turned on and off, although even this will not be entirely realistic.  Both wind and tide will effect different ships in different ways, some ships will tend to try and turn head to wind and some will tend to bear off, the same ship will even act diferently in different wind conditions.

Again all of these would have to be done within the limits of what can be run on a home PC.

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groennegaard

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Re: fast ferry arcade
« Reply #40 on: October 07, 2007, 10:25:38 »

Remember that the game needs to:

a) be playable by people who do not have years of training
b) be enjoyable
c) be capable of running on a home PC or laptop.

If the physics were modelled too realistically then none of these would be possible.

Hi clanky  :)

I don't agree with you. I think the physics should be modelled as realistically as possible. Otherwise the title 'simulator' would be misleading. Lots and lots of people in all ages handle boats in real life and if you can handle your bayliner or sailboat, you won't have any trouble handling the small boats in the sim.

The challenge is the large vessels (and every 'game' should have it's challenges...). In principle the handling is the same as for smaller boats just in a larger scale. The real difference is in how the environment affects the vessel and that is what makes it challenging. So if you are untrained - play (or make) missions without wind and current which is easy in SS08 as wind and current don't affect the ships. You could also play missions without berthing-objectives, as you said, if you're an unexperienced officer you won't handle these operations.

I think the game should aim at being 'as real as it gets' as it pretends to be a simulator. I don't think it's fair to simmers if the sim is deliberately made easier (and unrealistic) just to make it 'fun' to play. For me the 'fun' is challenge and realism.

By choosing ship type, mission type and weather you can actually set your own level of difficulty. A difficulty slider like the one in FSX might be a good idea, but it should at least be possible to set the sim at max realism.

Regards
groennegaard
« Last Edit: October 07, 2007, 15:10:07 by groennegaard »
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Stuart2007

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Re: fast ferry arcade
« Reply #41 on: October 07, 2007, 14:46:29 »

wot do you no about fsat ferrys??
Can anyone translate this to English, please?

Stu
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mvsmith

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Re: fast ferry arcade
« Reply #42 on: October 07, 2007, 14:49:33 »

A simplified sim might give weekend sailors a false sense of their ability to control their craft. These are the folk whom our Coast Guardsmen have to risk their own lives to fish from the drink.

Marty
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Stuart2007

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Re: fast ferry arcade
« Reply #43 on: October 07, 2007, 15:01:08 »

I think anyone that doesn't treat the sea with respect is probably not likely to be affected either way by the complexity of this sim.

Perhaps it needs a warning at the beginning of a mission. Warning: This does not qualify you to Captain a super tanker.

Joking aside, you are probably right; people will think it looks easy, so it must be (it might well be there las thought, however, if there is no lifeboat nearby).

Stu

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clanky

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Re: fast ferry arcade
« Reply #44 on: October 07, 2007, 20:55:45 »

Well, I'm off doing it for real for the next 3 months so I will talk to you all in January.

Here's wishing you all calm virtual seas and cold non-virtual beer until then.

Joining tomorrow in Marchwood, (SMC Marchwood on the chart on the left as you go up Southampton water in the Solent).  Then off taking military equipment to Iraq (really wish i could get a job that I enjoyed as much as this one that didn't prick my conscience every time I go to sea :( )

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[RWP]DJM

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Re: fast ferry arcade
« Reply #45 on: October 07, 2007, 20:57:41 »

Safe sailing clanky, and take care :)

See you when you get back :)

Regards.

DJM.


Edit:  Oh, Merry Christmas too ;D
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clanky

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Re: fast ferry arcade
« Reply #46 on: October 07, 2007, 21:07:33 »

Thanks DJM.

Yeah, merry Christmas and happy new year to you all.
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muns

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Re: fast ferry arcade
« Reply #47 on: October 08, 2007, 07:35:55 »

What time are you sailing & which ship?  I will pop down to Hythe Pier and wave you off......
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mvsmith

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Re: fast ferry arcade
« Reply #48 on: October 08, 2007, 17:45:17 »

The original Railroad Tycoon was a great game, for its (DOS) day. (It went downhill when they dropped the animation of stick figures building bridges.)
But the requirement to earn money to expand the network was an anathema to we who exist on a higher plane, above such pecuniary pursuits. (In other words, it was a pain in the butt.)
Sensibly, it was made an option in later versions.
Likewise, turning SS into a rewards based game, as ’06 was, would be a complete turn-off to a large segment of users who are of the mindset expressed by my signature. (One of the most oft quoted passages in English literature, and the unofficial motto of Scripps Institution of Oceanography) :)
Perhaps VSTEP should make two versions—one strictly for gamers, which I do recognize as an important market. Alternatively there could be an option, perhaps at load time. (That should keep the bug chasers busy.)
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