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Author Topic: fast ferry arcade  (Read 12755 times)

santi_leal

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fast ferry arcade
« on: September 16, 2007, 18:40:59 »

As i said before the patch, the movements of the fast ferry are not true and now that the patch has been released, i repeat the same. It has become an arcade game just and only...really a shame. This is a perfect way to loose people. Keep approaching...
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S. LEAL

Shipaddict

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Re: fast ferry arcade
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2007, 18:42:28 »

Which arade games have big ferries and the titanic?

I don't think it's an arcade game.
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Captain Kool

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Re: fast ferry arcade
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2007, 06:34:41 »

I think the point he is making is that it is not 'SIMULATING' an actual ships controls. It handles more like an arcade game.
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Stuart2007

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Re: fast ferry arcade
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2007, 10:54:07 »

Hi Santi leal

I'm sure the developers would be happy to hear your comments. Perhaps you could send Wout an email with your technical qualifications (which vessels you've been in command of etc) and how you think the dynamics should be improved.

Have you actually captained the Red Jet specifically or just these types of vessel. I mean, I assume you must have captained one...

Stu
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muns

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Re: fast ferry arcade
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2007, 16:01:22 »

In what way do you think the movements of RJ4 are wrong?
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Captain Kool

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Re: fast ferry arcade
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2007, 07:16:47 »

I'm not sure about the RJ4, but alot of ferries have individual (seperately controlled) rudders.

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santi_leal

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Re: fast ferry arcade
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2007, 07:51:13 »

Actually i´m in command of a 98 meters wave piercing catamaran ropax 880 passenger, that´s why i´m sure that the movements of the rj4 are not true. When you play with both jets, you can make two kinds of movements depending the position of the jets. Generally the parallel movements are done with both jets opened (about 15-18 degrees) and the turning movements with the jets closed. If you need any information, just tell me.
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S. LEAL

rs

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Re: fast ferry arcade
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2007, 11:50:51 »

Have you actually captained the Red Jet specifically or just these types of vessel. I mean, I assume you must have captained one...

Stu

And what about your technical qualifications, Stuart2007?  :-*
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captseaton

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Re: fast ferry arcade
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2007, 16:27:34 »

Actually i´m in command of a 98 meters wave piercing catamaran ropax 880 passenger, that´s why i´m sure that the movements of the rj4 are not true. When you play with both jets, you can make two kinds of movements depending the position of the jets. Generally the parallel movements are done with both jets opened (about 15-18 degrees) and the turning movements with the jets closed. If you need any information, just tell me.

None of the ships on SS 2008 handle anything like they do in real life. While the developers continue to make progress on this software, I believe that a "realistic" ship simulation available for personal computers is still a few years away. Baby steps, a little bit at a time. I did notice the developers now have the vessels slowing down as they ascend larger waves, this is a slight improvement. It all boils down to the physics of the game. The Red Jet 4 may be waterjet powered in real life, but in SS 2008, you might as well be controlling twin screws with twin rudders. The game version of the Red Jet 4 sure doesn't stop as fast as the real thing. Full speed, drop the buckets, all stop in 2.5 boat lengths. Everything at the stern of the vessel that wasn't fastened down is now at the front of the vessel.

I agree that the vessels do not handle correctly, but I also do not steer a boat with a mouse and a keyboard. You get used to the controls, you play the game, you either like it or not. It's totally up to you.  ???
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clanky

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Re: fast ferry arcade
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2007, 18:11:05 »

To some extent I agree with the original comments, the ships do not handle exactly as they would in real life and if I had bought the game as a professional ship handling simulator I would not be happy at all, however as a game I think that it is fantastic.

I don't know what is involved in the technical side of the game, but I would imagine that it would not be easy to use the same game engine to simulate fixed thrust and rudders as well as directable thrust?
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LucAtC

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Re: fast ferry arcade
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2007, 19:19:07 »

These comments about fast ferries and their handling are very interesting, mostly because there are not so many people acquainted with them, and because of their quality.
... When you play with both jets, you can make two kinds of movements depending the position of the jets. Generally the parallel movements are done with both jets opened (about 15-18 degrees) and the turning movements with the jets closed. If you need any information, just tell me.
Probably due to my poor understanding of English, and surely of the "waterjet controls vocabulary", I would like to know what you mean by "jets opened" (buckets up?), and how you achieve parallel movements (sideways?), with the help of bowthrusters?
Some elaboration about the controls would be very welcome. Do you still have lateral thrust when jets are closed?
Surely, more explanations would be welcome, could help the developers to improve the sim and help us to get more knowledge of the handling performances.
Regards,
Luc
PS: I also found http://www.hamiltonjet.co.nz/includes/files_cms/file/hm_series_brochure.pdf
but it is oflittle help
« Last Edit: September 18, 2007, 19:29:15 by LucAtC »
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captseaton

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Re: fast ferry arcade
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2007, 20:43:15 »

These comments about fast ferries and their handling are very interesting, mostly because there are not so many people acquainted with them, and because of their quality.Probably due to my poor understanding of English, and surely of the "waterjet controls vocabulary", I would like to know what you mean by "jets opened" (buckets up?), and how you achieve parallel movements (sideways?), with the help of bowthrusters?
Some elaboration about the controls would be very welcome. Do you still have lateral thrust when jets are closed?

I will try to explain it as best I can without drawing a diagram.

First thing you have to understand is the waterjet nozzles both rotate. 30 degrees right and 30 degrees left.

No bow thruster, or thrusters.

Now picture the port nozzle facing this direction / ---- \ and this is your starboard nozzle. Jets opening outward.

In SS 2008 that would be port nozzle 30 degrees, starboard nozzle -30 degrees.

This is called walking a vessel sideways.

Drop the bucket (thrust redirect for reverse) on the port engine and back down with a little more power then your starboard.

This is for two reasons- The bucket redirect is not as efficient as the jet pushing forward and the thrust has much further to travel past obstructions under the hull.

Again, picturing those nozzles in the / ---- \ configuration. Port nozzle is pulling back, starboard nozzle is pushing forward...what happens?

The vessel moves this way <----------------------------

Reverse throttles to go the other direction. This is A LOT EASIER than a vessel walking with twin screws, with or without a thruster.

Nozzles in the closed or V position look like this \ ---- /

For slow speed maneuvering, a speed brake is applied to block the full thrust from the jet nozzles. By alternating which bucket you open and close you can turn the vessel quickly. Port thrust pushes the bow to starboard, starboard thrust pushes the bow to port. Since the waterjet vessel has no rudder(s), bare steerageway does not apply.

Hope this explains things a little better. ;D

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shipfan55

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Re: fast ferry arcade
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2007, 20:46:12 »

Can't you just chill?how would you like it if you worked so hard on a game and people call it s*****?Let v step chillax and then they'll start working again soon.
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clanky

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Re: fast ferry arcade
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2007, 20:53:47 »

shipfan, surely feedback on the parts of the game which are not as accurate as they could be is important to allow the developers to see which areas of the game can be improved.  If eveyone just said how fantastic it is and how gret a job vstep have done then nothing would get changed.
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greyhill

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Re: fast ferry arcade
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2007, 20:57:09 »

Can't you just chill?how would you like it if you worked so hard on a game and people call it s*****?

tut tut, are you not a bit young to be using language like that, i'll tell your mum and you will get grounded for a month :D ;)
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ships used to be made of wood, and sailed by men of steel, now the ships are made of steel, and the men of wood.

greyhill

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Re: fast ferry arcade
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2007, 20:58:44 »

and by the way its spelt S***, not S*****  ;)
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captseaton

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Re: fast ferry arcade
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2007, 21:05:21 »

 ???
Of course if I wanted to change the physics of the game engine...

Just simply take the code from a twin engine vessel and multiply it by 2 while still retaining a twin engine control. Then the RJ4 would handle closer to real life.

Picture 2 Sherpas side by side lashed tightly together.

Using ONLY the outboard engines, I can walk the combined vessels sideways. (Yeah, I tried this)  ;)

No matter what ship you choose in SS 2008, they follow the same physical movement. It's as if they are all powered by a single outboard motor. Forward and right rudder turns your vessel right. Astern and left rudder backs your vessel left. Might as well use both engines to do this because it really doesn't matter.

With two ships lashed together you actually get the correct spacing and ACCURATE twin engine maneuvering.

Sooooooo....someone needs to get to coding :-P
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LucAtC

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Re: fast ferry arcade
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2007, 21:54:32 »

Thanks captseaton, I think I see it now. I tried to test it, but didnt manage it because of a keyboard "problem". Dont know if it is a bug, but when I try to separate Rudder1 and Rudder2 (rotation of jets?), the keys are mixed  between 1 and 2. Perhaps could an "innocent hand" check it? Perhaps it is due to an AZERTY keyboard, with the last line being WXCVBN,;:= but I doubt it, because it works well with other keys. I feel a bug hmmm.
But it can be easily solved, and I'll get over it (is R1 port? R2 stbd?), here odd is stbd and even is port.
Within one hour, it will be solved (but the empire strikes back is on the screen now...).
About the deceleration of RedJet4, I think the distance of 2.5 lengths is accurately reproduced? Of course, one doesnt feel the ship pitching (?), but the distance seems correct.
Regards,
Luc
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clanky

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Re: fast ferry arcade
« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2007, 21:57:12 »

I have managed to get the sherpa moving almost sideways through the water.

port engine 50% ahead
starboard engine 40%astern
rudder hard to starboard
thrust to port

The ship creeps forward and moves sideways with a very low rate of turn, if you fiddle wirh the controls you can correct the forward aft motion and rate of turn and with a little manouvering room can make the ship travel sideways over quite a large distance.  It is not particularly pretty or realistic and you have to move ahead and astern a little and swing port and starboard a little as it seems almost impossible to find a balance.
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Captain Kool

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Re: fast ferry arcade
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2007, 22:46:26 »

Shipfan, VSTEP has no direct comeptition, so if they are not told what they need to improve they may not look to it as soon as if they were told. It's to help them too! :]
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LucAtC

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Re: fast ferry arcade
« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2007, 23:28:48 »

Voilà, finally I succeeded in manoeuvring RedJet4 sideways with separated rudders.
It works, but having no reference, I cannot tell if it is realistic. Surely, the distance between the jets gives her a very good manoeuvrability. Happily enough, Engine 1 is the port jet, 2 the starboard one.

Unfortunately, in the Settings -Ship controls panel, Rudder 1 reset corresponds to Rudder 2 reset (and vice versa). Also, Rudder 1 seems to correspond to the starboard deflector, and 2 to the port one, which is thoroughly confusing. It reminds me of Red Eagle "stern" control panel.
Regrads,
Luc
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Stuart2007

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Re: fast ferry arcade
« Reply #21 on: September 19, 2007, 00:14:28 »

And what about your technical qualifications, Stuart2007?  :-*
Please remind me where I have stated or even given the impression that I have captained a large passenger carrying vessel.

Stu
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Stuart2007

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Re: fast ferry arcade
« Reply #22 on: September 19, 2007, 00:21:57 »

Capt Seaton. Thanks for that technical explination. I personally find the technical side of this fascinating.

As for accuracy. I am taking flying lessons and can assure anyone with no flight experience that a certain flight sim is not 'as real as it gets'. So I can understand how a ship professional might view shipsim. Great fun, but not necessarily 100% accurate.

Stu
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captseaton

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Re: fast ferry arcade
« Reply #23 on: September 19, 2007, 04:12:26 »

Capt Seaton. Thanks for that technical explination. I personally find the technical side of this fascinating.

As for accuracy. I am taking flying lessons and can assure anyone with no flight experience that a certain flight sim is not 'as real as it gets'. So I can understand how a ship professional might view shipsim. Great fun, but not necessarily 100% accurate.

Stu

My pleasure, I aim to please  :)

Well, it wasn't "too" technical, I have seen jet powered yachts go up and down the New River in Fort Lauderdale, it is so much easier to understand...once you have seen it done a few times.  ;D
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clanky

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Re: fast ferry arcade
« Reply #24 on: September 19, 2007, 17:03:15 »

Capt Seaton. Thanks for that technical explination. I personally find the technical side of this fascinating.

As for accuracy. I am taking flying lessons and can assure anyone with no flight experience that a certain flight sim is not 'as real as it gets'. So I can understand how a ship professional might view shipsim. Great fun, but not necessarily 100% accurate.

Stu

It takes years to learn how to handle large ships, even qualified ships officers do not normally dock the ship until they get to at least chief officer level.  There has to be a balance between making a realistic simulator and an enjoyable game.

If the handling of the ships was too accurate most people would never be able to complete the missions and would soon get annoyed with the game and give up.  There has to be an element of an arcade game about it for people to want to buy it.  I don't know what happens in the professional version of the sim which Vstep market, but as i said above I don't think the game as it stands is accurate enough to be used as a professional ship handling simulator.
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