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[Sgt. Dutchy]

Dear Vstep,

I am not trying to get a rebate for my game but please get my point.

<rant>
I am a big fan of the ship simulator series,
I own some small boats myself and love the ability to take something big out on the water in this simulator.
I have ss6, ss8 and 2 copies of extremes (one for my laptop and one for my pc).
SS6 wasnt all that great but it sertainly was a good game and had very few bugs.
Then ss8 which I recently bought has just a few bugs and minor issues (Im amazed that they're still are any because you guys allready released sse and i expected all the bugs to be out?!?!).
Now SSE...
I have recently started program developement at school and I know how complicated even a simple game can be.
But rule number one is that we should NEVER start actively selling a program that doesnt work at all or has a lot of bugs, this due to a lot of people who would start complaining...
Its ofcourse better to start with a small group of people doing betatests, when possible it should be tested on all kinds of systems, different osses, different hardware etc.

Now i know that there have been betatests but at the initial launch the game (for a lot of people, including myself) wouldnt work AT ALL...
Having payed money for something people expect it to work, and at 40 something euros for a lot of people it isnt like buying a small old game, not caring if it would work but just for fun...

You'd expect it to fully work, have very little bugs, be atleast playable and all that.
Now I was really exited for the updates to come, after the first 2 the game was playable and fun, not to much crashes etc.
Now this last update... just kept my system to crash all the time, some times i wouldnt be able to start a game at all.
I have just fixed this thanks to someone on the forum who had a trick by editing the .exe headers to use more then 2gig of memory (im amazed that isnt set by default since this is a really resource intensive game)
I did this to both sse.exe and questviewer.exe (since sse just starts the game and questviewer is the eventually running process (as I asume))
Which has now fixed 95% of the bugs in this game.

But then comes the gameplay...
I have a physx card and atleast waves and wake seem to be really nice, most ships work nicely when just operating throttle and steering..
But then I say most, Some ships that are operated with pods have a really awkward controll,
The leavers indicate that it would just be able to throw the engines in reverse, but it doesnt, when...
Ill just make a list with basic controll bugs would be easyer then writing on and on.

Basic controll issues (using keyboard):
- Azipods wont reverse
- When turning azipods to 180* (or trying to) it wont... it will go from 179 to 0 back to 181, instead of just turning arround my ship will suddenly just blast forwards into a wall!
- Bow and stern thrusters dont allways work that great...
- Default stern thruster reset button is mapped to the same button (c) that hides the control ui
- Some ships (like the jumbo jav) have no working steering wheel reset.

Controll issues on the UI
- percantage and rpm/angle indicators wont match the leaver position and sometimes differentiate (0% 220rpm)
- Hard to center controlls (would prefer a reset button or a little *snap*

Controll issues on bridge
- Missing or not working controlls
- Position of some controlls is completely off (like on the vermaas... shouldnt the steering wheel be atleast near the throttle?)
- Secondary controls wont do anything on some ships

Also using keyboard controlls in walkmode would be something VERY usefull if the secondary controlls dont yet work

Then just issues with some of the ships
I Like the models, they look nice but the longer you spent on different ships the more annoying bugs you start to find, not just outside controlls not working, but just stupid placing of rope attachments and lights, and even some just stupid moddelling/mapping of the ships

Fairmount Sherpa:
- On the left side the outside stairs pull you to the side and wont allow you to walk on
- There is an inside of the ship but you're unable to use it!

Jumbo Javelin:
- Finally the bridge walking is fixed but now you're unable to get down to the deck ><
- The place where it seems you can go down has some issues with the wall image or something

Vermaas:
- free walk starts somewhere inthe middle of the ship
- When you reach the housing unit there is no interior... you need to walk until you finally find some stairs...
- Same problem as above on some other levels...

Cutter:
- From helms view the roof is invisible

Protector:
- Exhaust smoke coming out of the air VENTS
- Towing bolder is not used but theres an awkwardly placed one on the stern

And then a lot of other ships suffer from being blocked from places that should be walkable, not all vertical stairs are walkable (keep some persistance, if you can walk one you should be able to walk all)
Awkward light and rope attachment placings
Anchors not doing ANYTHING or not working AT ALL

And theres a lot of other stuff which just gets people annoyed such as the radar not working properly (big ships are just huge dots making you unable to see most of the water)
And maps messing up names...

Then theres multiplayer, a lot of fun but ehrm...
no seperate application (game crash is server crash)
Lagspikes cause towing jobs to completely go apeshit...
And lots of other stuff...
</rant>

Ok, im tired of ranting and just gettting more upset by the word.
I do not know what bugs have been reported or what once are being worked on...
This causing even more annoyance, just please make an OPEN google project page or a bug tracking system where everybody can atleast see or maybe even report bugs.

Well, please just take notice of this, I love the game and understand that an initial game launch can have a lot of bugs, but you guys are pushing the limits...

Grtz,
Sgt. Dutchy

[thyro]

Get a break m8tty get SS8 running

yeah SSE is heavelly bugged but still some can be played... for me just couple missions do "work", free roaming is a no go nothing works at all ships fail to appear and game crashes and similar problems happens to most career missions etc etc etc. And if the game doesn't crash then there are no ways to get some of the working missions done due to mission glitches... case of mission 08 of the core

However giving time SSE will be far greater than SS8 that had couple years of code fixing. So isn't all wasted money but an investment and a damn good incentive for VSTEP to do the job

But fundamentally I agree with your post; shipping out of the window a crashed game is a very bad news for VSTEP reputation. But looking into the game market this bad trend has been happened even with "big sharks" in the game industry (where product quality is nill our days). Anyway big-sharks such as UBI that rushed unfinished games plus DRM just to cash-in and then ceased supporing those games because the player based refushed to buy junk so they left games unfinished and unsupported simply because the reputation was so bad that no one in right mind (fans included) jump in buy junky games.

Hopefully VSTEP still isn't on that level of leaving the game in an unsupported state. So yeah, SSE is bugged but it seem to have all the ingredients to be a superb shipsim game of all the series created till now. So lets give VSTEP some break and a kit-kat chocolate to get them selves sorted and fixing some of the basic problems SSE has.

Meantime play SSE with what it works or go back to SS8 coz it still rocks (even if the survivors don't run through out the ship on SS8 pity!)

[Sgt. Dutchy]

yeh as I sead i have ss8 and bought it because sse wasnt running all that great, but even ss8 has its bugs o.0

[thassos]

Azipod steering - Pods take a long time to turn in real life.  You can't just throw it into reverse like a marine gearbox.  The situation is so bad for emergency stops that Royal Carribean ships have one pod permanently turned through 180 so a relatively fast stop can be made by stopping the ahead motors and starting the astern one - then starting the others when theycomplete the turn.
P&O new ships have rejected the pods and use propellor and rudder.  They have stern thrusters as well as bow thrusters for side shifting and sharp turns at low speed.  One of the things that VSTEP got right is the slow turning pods.

[Traddles]

An excellent point Thassos. Azipods are not the greatest thing since sliced bread, but like just about everything, they have their drawbacks.

[Tavares Junior]

And then....

Its just another TOPIC which looks like an insignificant thing to VSTEP

[Alex Brown]

Azipod steering - Pods take a long time to turn in real life.  You can't just throw it into reverse like a marine gearbox.  The situation is so bad for emergency stops that Royal Carribean ships have one pod permanently turned through 180 so a relatively fast stop can be made by stopping the ahead motors and starting the astern one - then starting the others when theycomplete the turn.
P&O new ships have rejected the pods and use propellor and rudder.  They have stern thrusters as well as bow thrusters for side shifting and sharp turns at low speed.  One of the things that VSTEP got right is the slow turning pods.

I think you're missing the point - what he's saying here is true on the B2, that the pod (stbd one anyway) goes to 179 degrees and then all the way via 0 to 181 degrees, which does make your tug shoot forward..... this is not like real life. For me, the port pod is fine and does go the full 360.... it seems very odd that this fundemental error made it through beta testing last time round 

-Alex

[TerryRussell (†2012)]

Alex,

Don't insult the Beta testers, please. I expect you'll find that they did indeed find this bug and report it. Knowing many of the people involved and their considerable maritime experience, I would be prepared to lay money on that.

However, with a project as complicated as Extremes, fixing the bug will have been assigned a certain priority that will be reached once more important things get fixed. That's bog-standard software development process, of course.

[Bottman]

Your are right, The Gost of Terry! We have posted this bug and numerous more to the VSTEP bug tracker. And they are working hard to fix most of those. We now have the next patch in a beta testing status and several things are working fine or at least better now. The "B2" for instance has got realistic levers back, the first issue of SSE had very large and uncomfortble ones. By the way, there is an important difference between azipod-driven vessels and azimuth-thruster-driven ships. The former can change the thrust direction very fast, since an electric motor drives the prop(-s), whereas azimuth thrusters as used on "B2" must turn around. The electric propulsion can be switched from forward to backward faster.

[Traddles]

There is actually a very large amount of stuff being incorporated into the next patch. This is one reason why it is taking some considerable time to bring it to fruition. As Bottman says above there are numerous things being attended to, and I would beg players to be patient, if they are able to. When I was a child, (Many, many years ago) I was told, "All good things come to those who wait". The people at VStep watch the forum and try to provide as much of the stuff which is asked for, & as has been pointed out previously, they are working very hard to achieve things.
BTW Azipods and their controls have a high priority I can assure you.

[joshbw]

You guys are on the Vstep gas.  I bought this awful piece of software on launch date.  Vstep made excuses then on why they released such a junky piece of software and that the first patch witch was delayed for weeks would fix alot.  First patch, second patch, 3rd patch what ever with these guys.  How a company could charge money for this software is beyond me.  This is nothing more then a free game at best and we all deserve some kind of refund for buying this.  I think I would have been more satisfied if I just payed the 40 euros for a empty box. Software is junk, vstep is junk and this game has fantastic potential but not in the hands of the knuckle heads at vstep.

[Captain Spencer]

Joshbw,

Your point is completely unjustified and completely unfair. VSTEP have created a game which admittedly was full of bugs (even I know that) but your comment above is certainly not true.

All games require patching even from straight out the box. How many games do you see that once installed actually run the patch utility before you are allowed to play the game? I mean even Maxis needed to patch Sims 3 before anyone could play it properly. ALL games have to be patched to make them work, whether you have a large company like Maxis, or a small company like VSTEP.

For the type of game and the amount of work involved I think VSTEP have done very well. They have worked hard and produced 3 patches in less than 3 months.

Besides, you've not even said much on this forum apart from ranting and raving. I agree with most people on here that the game was not what it should have been when it came out, and I completely understand everyone frustration with the game (which is why I like to help people to get the game working).

The reason for the patch was delayed was not because of VSTEP, they were waiting for Steam. However, I don't see you calling Steam 'junk'. Maybe you should actually understand things a little more before ranting and raving

Ohh and one last thing, what happened since your last post? http://80.95.161.114/shipsim/forum/index.php/topic,21674.msg291462.html#msg291462

[thyro]

Captain Spencer,

To be impartial to both of you. I've downloaded Xtreme directly from this site (therefore not Steam) and is pretty much is unplayable even with 1.2.2 integrated on the download file.

So lets cut the crap, it is a fact that the game is fully bugged and require allot more patching than 1.2.2 to make the game working or at least get fully operational and stable.

However in those missions that don't crash (between changing scenarios) on "my 1.2.2" it is nice to see the improvements at all levels. So VSTEP has to keep up the good work to make this game working and bring some stability.

EXtreme has nice enhancements (fact) but as overall product (by simply compare it to SS08) it still a very raw diamond (it should not have been released coz it seems to be in Alfa/beta stage still). But as I mentioned in my previous post it seems to be a trend in the game industry to release games before being tested just to cash in, this might sort out any immediate cash problems but reputation goes up in smoke as well unless the problems are solved soon after release (which has not been the case yet)

So VSTEP has to speed-up shaping this raw diamond before the game and VSTEP gets further more flak damage for the holes Xtreme has.

Btw I'm waiting for next patch to be able to play missions that fail to open (crash when changing scenarios) also to be able to play free roaming and download missions that once again crash on opening - not to mention console controls that refuse to work.


Please shape this raw diamond asap 

Cheers

[mvsmith]

Hi thyro,
If you crash or have missing objects when there is an environment change, you may be running out of available memory. Although you may have lots of installed RAM, the issue is available memory. QuestViewer, at present, is configured, in its .exe header, to only access 2GB of memory. Of that, not all is de-allocated when it is no longer needed; it is not returned to the memory pool until SSE closes. If you run through many missions or environment changes without leaving SSE and restarting it, you will deplete the pool of memory.

You might find this helpful if you have a 64-bit system with 4GB or more RAM:
http://80.95.161.114/shipsim/forum/index.php/topic,22431.0.html (http://80.95.161.114/shipsim/forum/index.php/topic,22431.0.html)
Absent official word from VSTEP, as a moderator I cannot officially recommend it. However I have never experienced problems routinely doing so on my 8GB systems.

Regards,
Marty

[thyro]

mvsmith,

Many thanks I'll look into those suggestions. My rig is 64bit XP 4Gb and SSE doesn't seem to go beyond 80-88% ram usage when SSE goes "bang". From what I'm gathering crashes seem happening random, so it could well be the memory coz most of the times the objects seem to fail to appear and pop crash msg follows it.

Regards

[thassos]

Although I agree that there is much to be done to improve the sim, I have never had a mission crash - I have had a black screen for about a second when changing environments but that's all and I am running on a "middle range" laptop not a high end machine.  So before calling VSTEP on this one have a look into the way you clean up your machines. 
If you are running your machine properly and starting from shutdown at least now and again to recover memory and are still having a problem there is a nice free program called Enditall available on the net which allows you to close all unnecessary programs in one click.  I've not had to use it on Extremes but used it a lot with train simulator and with SS08 on an older laptop.

[mvsmith]

Hi thyro,

Yes if you crash while your memory monitor indicates that you should have RAM left, it is probable that the indicated RAM is not available to QuestViewer because of the 2GB limit in its file header.

Regards,
Marty

[vernongt]

G'day Sgt Dutchy,
Just read your open letter to Vstep and I only wish I had your good fortune!!!!!! 
I've never had the good fortune to own a previous Ship Sim so I can only go on what I have here!!! 
I received SSE [Steam box] in the mail last week, and since then I have been unable to even get it to launch.
Apparently "Steam" has control of my computer and I'm unable to install SSE without them.
You see, during the install, it starts an update [468.55MB] which "blows" my daily limit, and puts me in the "No Activity" box for 24hrs. So as you see, If I could only uninstall; re-install and try to bypass "Steam" I would, but whenever I try to install it again, it would naturally place me in the "Penalty Box" for another 24 hours.

I have to agree with you that IF THIS #$%^ software was made in the USA and released in this disgraceful condition, there would be one helluva 'class action law suit' with thousands of plaintiffs demanding compensation!!! 

Exasperation is an understatement!!! 
I'd like to have someone [vendor or tech] email me so that I can explain my situation and gain some semblance of support; or coaching on how to get to SEE WHAT I PAID GOOD [HARD EARNED] MONEY FOR!!!!! 

Cheers!

[mvsmith]

Hi Vern,

Don’t you think it’s a bit silly to beat up on VSTEP because of your arrangement with your ISP?

Updates, whether from VSTEP directly, or via STEAM, can be expected to approach 1GB.
If you can’t afford an unlimited high-speed account, you would be better off with a dialup account and a good download manager so you could spread the download over 48 hours or more.
Buying direct from VSTEP, always the better alternative when possible, would have saved you some grief.

Regards,
Marty

[vernongt]

mvsmith,
Many thanks I'll look into those suggestions. My rig is 64bit XP 4Gb and SSE doesn't seem to go beyond 80-88% ram usage when SSE goes "bang". From what I'm gathering crashes seem happening random, so it could well be the memory coz most of the times the objects seem to fail to appear and pop crash msg follows it.
Regards

Dear Thyro, I think you're in the similar boat as am I... I have XP Pro and my Dual Core AMD Athlon X2 has 4GB or RAM installed, but sadly XP won't recognize all that 4GB and actually shows only 2GB.
Now if, after buying SSE as I did and not getting it to EVEN LAUNCH, I go out and buy Windows 7 and so on to REALLY make my PC more than capable, I ask myself this:
How come Flight Sim X works fine [out of the box]? How come GTR2 works fine [out of the box]? How come Race07 worked fine [out of the box]? How come Trainz 2010 works fine [out of the box]? YET SSE WON'T EVEN LAUNCH AND IS UNDER THE CONTROL OF "STEAM"?
Additionally [Capt Spencer...] regardless of "Steam" or any other 3rd party; SINCE WHEN IS VSTEP absolved from guilt??? IT'S THEIR SOFTWARE!!!!!  

[vernongt]

Hi Vern,

Don’t you think it’s a bit silly to beat up on VSTEP because of your arrangement with your ISP?
Updates, whether from VSTEP directly, or via STEAM, can be expected to approach 1GB.
If you can’t afford an unlimited high-speed account, you would be better off with a dialup account and a good download manager so you could spread the download over 48 hours or more.
Buying direct from VSTEP, always the better alternative when possible, would have saved you some grief.
Regards,
Marty

Marty, I'm aware of all that you say, but what I hadn't mentioned [this time] is that a Satellite ISP [HughesNet] is all I can get out here in Nthrn Arizona. I make my own power [solar] and no wires of any kind come to the ranch.
Yes, I could get any updates [save them and install later] if I could only download them between midnight and 0500 local, which I would do if I could [have done before - many times] Steam doesn't give me the opportunity to do any such upgrade-save it- and launch it myself!!!
Buying from VSTEP seems to fail too. [ask Thyro], but that's not the point. As a consumer, I found NO DISCLAIMER UPON PURCHASE WHICH SAID "BUY AT YOUR OWN RISK" nor did I read any reference to buying direct from VSTEP!!!
Besides, before I got my SSE, I asked "What's the Difference? [Steam etc] and Captain Spenser informed me that there isn't any difference!!! Now he's trying to 'wiggle' out of that by suggesting that VSTEP isn't responsible!!!
Understand what I'm trying to say Marty?
If I could only install SSE then download and save the 1.2.2 update, then launch the update myself I'd be better off. Sadly though, I can't do that, and hence, am unable to uninstall and re install without an "automatic update download" penalizing my FAP daily quota. Hmmph! Maybe I should do the whole thing between 000-0500 local time??? 
Sorry for being angry Marty. It's not your fault...
Cheers,
Vernon

[mvsmith]

Hi Vern,

From your explanation it looks like you can forget about ever running SSE as long as you have a STEAM version and an ISP that will not let you do the necessary downloads.
Even if you got a boxed version from VSTEP, avoiding STEAM, future updates might be a problem, unless someone was willing to put them on a disc for you.

Perhaps, in lieu of a refund, you could ask VSTEP to exchange your STEAM version for their DVD version and the latest update on DVD.
For future updates that fall outside your download limit, I would be willing to send them to you on  DVD (with VSTEP’s blessing, of course).

Regards,
Marty

[KiwiSailor]

Joshbw,

Your point is completely unjustified and completely unfair. VSTEP have created a game which admittedly was full of bugs (even I know that) but your comment above is certainly not true.

All games require patching even from straight out the box. How many games do you see that once installed actually run the patch utility before you are allowed to play the game? I mean even Maxis needed to patch Sims 3 before anyone could play it properly. ALL games have to be patched to make them work, whether you have a large company like Maxis, or a small company like VSTEP.

For the type of game and the amount of work involved I think VSTEP have done very well. They have worked hard and produced 3 patches in less than 3 months.

Besides, you've not even said much on this forum apart from ranting and raving. I agree with most people on here that the game was not what it should have been when it came out, and I completely understand everyone frustration with the game (which is why I like to help people to get the game working).

The reason for the patch was delayed was not because of VSTEP, they were waiting for Steam. However, I don't see you calling Steam 'junk'. Maybe you should actually understand things a little more before ranting and raving

Ohh and one last thing, what happened since your last post? http://80.95.161.114/shipsim/forum/index.php/topic,21674.msg291462.html#msg291462

I too posted on the above thread which your link refers too. I too feel strongly about the game being unplayable. You asked the question what has happened since then?  Well I have time to TRY and play the game and found the same bugs as before and even some new ones. I think people are starting to get rather annoyed that they can't play it. Lets hope the next update comes with a lot of fixes and soon. Maybe a few xtra's for everyones patience.