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Author Topic: HMHS Britannic  (Read 38066 times)

AriesDW

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Re: HMHS Britannic
« Reply #50 on: June 18, 2007, 21:18:36 »

If you look at films such as 'bounty' and 'master and commander' you will see they are wrong.

They show the red ensign but in bounty- it was more a navy freighter and would have been a lower squadron (blue?) and again in master and commander he wasn't a post captain but a luitenant commander and so would again have been in blue or white squadron.

I LOVE lookng for technical inaccuracies in films with multi million pound budgets and so many experts that can't even tie their shoe laces. God I must get out more.

Stu

LOL! I hear that! People always get annoyed when I pick apart 'Titanic' or similar film types.
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LucAtC

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Re: HMHS Britannic
« Reply #51 on: June 18, 2007, 21:45:14 »

No Luke, right first time.

NOW:
Red ensign - commercial/private vessels
Blue ensign - Royal Navy Fleet Auxilliary
White ensign - Royal Navy

This is a good website for the history:
http://www.sea-dreamer.com/page.asp?pagename=ensign

THE PAST:
The flags were all Royal Navy (until 1860's) to denote squadron colour.
I think it was
Red - Pacific Australia also any ships not assigned.
White - Home fleet and Atlantic
Blue - Mediterranean.

Stu
Errare humanum est, my excuse  :-[ came from
http://www.nava.org/Flag%20Information/articles/Titantic/titanic.htm
Regards,
Luc
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AriesDW

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Re: HMHS Britannic
« Reply #52 on: June 19, 2007, 00:09:20 »

It;s okay, Luc - We won;t make ya walk the plank. This time . . .
 ;) ;) :D :P
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[RWP]DJM

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Re: HMHS Britannic
« Reply #53 on: June 19, 2007, 00:11:37 »

It;s okay, Luc - We won;t make ya walk the plank. This time . . .
 ;) ;) :D :P

LOL :D

Better watch out for next time Luc ;)
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AriesDW

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Re: HMHS Britannic
« Reply #54 on: June 19, 2007, 00:11:45 »

I watched a documentary last night about all three of the Olympic class vessels and about the conspiracy White Star and Harland & Wolff was keeping secrets about the weakness of the expansion joints in the design and secretly, without altering the blueprints of the Britannic, designed and developed a very different expansion joint that may have been on of a series of secret modifications to improve the Olympic design (aside the obvious exterior changes and the well publicized increase in watertight compartment height.)

Hrm . . . . It was awesome. I also liked seeing the old girl on HD . . .  Wow.
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AriesDW

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Re: HMHS Britannic
« Reply #55 on: June 19, 2007, 00:12:10 »

LOL :D

Better watch out for next time Luc ;)

 :D
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Stuart2007

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Re: HMHS Britannic
« Reply #56 on: June 19, 2007, 00:15:51 »

I watched a documentary last night about all three of the Olympic class vessels and about the conspiracy White Star and Harland & Wolff was keeping secrets about the weakness of the expansion joints in the design and secretly, without altering the blueprints of the Britannic, designed and developed a very different expansion joint that may have been on of a series of secret modifications to improve the Olympic design (aside the obvious exterior changes and the well publicized increase in watertight compartment height.)

Hrm . . . . It was awesome. I also liked seeing the old girl on HD . . .  Wow.

Conspiracy theories... There are so many with any major story. I suppose any company will continiously be developing new technology for its new ships and retrofit on older ships. They usually don't advertise it during testing. I'm a great cynic and believe few of these things.

Stu
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AriesDW

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Re: HMHS Britannic
« Reply #57 on: June 19, 2007, 00:33:12 »

Conspiracy theories... There are so many with any major story. I suppose any company will continiously be developing new technology for its new ships and retrofit on older ships. They usually don't advertise it during testing. I'm a great cynic and believe few of these things.

Stu

Well the thing I thought interesting is that the vessels official blueprints were found to not reflect the structural change . . .  I just thought it was an interesting point. Of course, in all reality I am not surprised that structural modifications were made, especially in secrecy. They wanted people to feel safe on the ships, however, they did not want to seem all the more stupid if an upgraded ship STILL failed. Of course in this case, the ship could of used A/C because if all the damn portholes weren't open that morning Britannic would of spent more time above the waves than below . . . Burnett should of used a more . . . strict policy on board. HA HA HA!

And of course when the ship exploaded (mine or torpedo, your weapon of choice) the ONE wire connecting the critical set of water tight doors had to be servered. MAN! The odds were terribly against her. And it is a tragedy, considering I found her the most beautiful of all three ships.

I tend to find Titanic to be the ugliest of the three . . . Something about the smaller windows on the A deck prominade . . . I like the curving introduction to the larger set of "viewports", however, I just am not a fan of the smaller viewports in the between the stern and bow. I think on B deck is a different story, since the deck has those predominately . . . . Just a quark . . .  I think Olympic also had the greatness of being the first of the Olympic class . . .
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Stuart2007

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Re: HMHS Britannic
« Reply #58 on: June 19, 2007, 00:37:17 »

again, I don't know so I won't say you're wrong. But ammendments to design often aren't reflected in the blueprints if they are minor and will be appended on a seperate sheet.

But in the 21st century, we may have access to SOME blueprints, we haven't got access to the ships so we will never know for certain.

On wikipedia there is an article on titanic conspiracy theories.

Stu
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AriesDW

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Re: HMHS Britannic
« Reply #59 on: June 19, 2007, 00:40:08 »

I would think that something like an alteration in an expansion joint would appear on the plans, or even yes, an amendment sheet - which appears to be non-existant or has been deliberately removed (or possibly lost) and from one of the early copies.
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Stuart2007

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Re: HMHS Britannic
« Reply #60 on: June 19, 2007, 00:47:03 »

I would think that something like an alteration in an expansion joint would appear on the plans, or even yes, an amendment sheet - which appears to be non-existant or has been deliberately removed (or possibly lost) and from one of the early copies.

I didn't know. What evidence is there that these changes were made?

If a change is made now it has to be documented in 100s of forms, back then paperwork wasn't so strict.

Stu
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AriesDW

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Re: HMHS Britannic
« Reply #61 on: June 19, 2007, 00:49:52 »

I didn't know. What evidence is there that these changes were made?

If a change is made now it has to be documented in 100s of forms, back then paperwork wasn't so strict.

Stu

The evidence of the joint was prooven when divers went to the wreck and evaluated the expansion join. It is quite different from those on Titanic and Olympic. Photo references and design notes proove one thing on the first two ships (which their design was common practice at the time) and then the wreck of Britannic shows a different joint than the other two vessels as well as her own plans.
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LucAtC

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Re: HMHS Britannic
« Reply #62 on: June 19, 2007, 13:39:30 »

 :D
It;s okay, Luc - We won;t make ya walk the plank. This time . . .
 ;) ;) :D :P
Being on the plank, at the end ....  :-X  :-\
http://www.titanic401.co.uk/blue.html   http://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/discus/messages/5921/6437.html
http://www.therealtitanic.cwc.net/E.J.Smith.htm
Falling...   :o
 ;D
Luc
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LucAtC

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Re: HMHS Britannic
« Reply #63 on: June 19, 2007, 17:58:36 »

Hello,
Expansion joints, whether longitudinal or transversal, do not add to the strength of the hull taken as a beam.
Transverse joints are instead used to enable deflection of the hull without stressing the superstructure.
Such joints are a source of problems when rust appears, and improving the design aims at reducing water ingress, improving slippage of lips, inspection,...
Is this the same conspiracy theory as http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/06/10/nwreck110.xml  ?
The bending moment of the hull is indeed maximum at some point when the sternpost comes just out of the water, and so was also the bending stress on deck B (if it was indeed the highest resistance deck).
But I too can confirm  :( that, had Titanic been stronger, with higher watertight bulkheads, better steel, stronger and quicker steering gear, and more lifesaving equipment, perhaps it could have floated during a longer period, and perhaps less lives would have been lost.  :-[

Regards,
Luc

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AriesDW

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Re: HMHS Britannic
« Reply #64 on: June 19, 2007, 18:47:15 »

Luc;

  The documentary I was watching was aimed at confirming if that theory was correct or incorrect. It was prooven that for the period, Titanic was plenty strong and would of sustained herself, however, later in her service life, would of had cracking problems in the deck area surrounding the expansion joint, I think the aft of the two joints in the superstructure. It was discovered that Olympic had a lot of structural issues as she aged due to the design of the joints.

I know the purpose of the expansion joints - and the concept of the joints make sense. I am not criticizing that. What I ma criticizing was the design of the joint. It was, however, at the time deemed very acceptable . . .  So no shame on them for not knowing better?

I too believe Titanic was built quite strong and she did well in her sinking, considering what she was designed and built with. I think, should she had a larger rudder and certain manuever orders not had been given, Titanic may not of even gone down. However, that is not what happened. I think ignorance, in many ways, lead to the collision. I think there is a lot to be learned from both that and from the design of the vessel, not to mention it shows good quality materials matter.

However, it was a tragedy, in many, many ways. It is fun, however, to be on a ship in rough seas and to see the joints in action - looking down a transverse corridor in rough seas does a good job of messing with your head. HA HA HA!
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Stuart2007

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Re: HMHS Britannic
« Reply #65 on: June 19, 2007, 21:16:58 »

The biggest ship I've been on is the Pride of Bilbao. I must admit to never noticing any movement in the structure. Anywhere specific I should be looking?

If I understand you rightly you are saying the ship bends??? I thought they were built rigid by design.

B****Y hell

Stu
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mporter

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Re: HMHS Britannic
« Reply #66 on: June 19, 2007, 21:54:29 »

The biggest ship I've been on is the Pride of Bilbao. I must admit to never noticing any movement in the structure. Anywhere specific I should be looking?

If I understand you rightly you are saying the ship bends??? I thought they were built rigid by design.

B****Y hell

Stu

Small ships do have a relatively rigid hull -- in fact they are generally somewhat overbuilt because other priorities push them in that direction (not true of all -- witness the America's Cup boat that broke in two a few years ago!).

In the case of large ships, however, there are several factors involved. First you must understand that the hull is a box girder, and is relatively shallow for its length.  A box girder is inherently strong, but the soct, both in material and the fuel to carry any extra thickness or structural members around form powerful arguments for engineering a just-adequate ship. 

Then there is the environment;  small ships are small relative to offshore waves so they climb up one side and down the other, while larger ships may find bow and stern suspended on peaks with the middle basically unsupported in the hollow between.  A ship rigid enough to bridge such a gap without bending would be enormously heavy and also susceptible to cracking from other stresses.  Instead she must (and does) flex in such situations. You can hear them creak and groan in a seaway-- this is natural.

Expansion joints are no longer used, hosever -- I suspect because welded steel is inherently stronger and more flexible than riveted iron (or steel).

Cheers,
Michael
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AriesDW

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Re: HMHS Britannic
« Reply #67 on: June 19, 2007, 22:27:02 »

Well said, Michael. As you mentioned, vessels can be suseptible to cracking under major stress. After a series of investigations, Olympic was found to be suffering from such a situation. She was, closer to the end of her career, to be getting to a point of "structurally unsound". Again, that is just some new information floating around the web these days.

Larger vessels, expansion joints or not (although I was under the impression they were still in use, pending on the vessel) do still tweak and groan in heavier seas. Just last year when on Carnival Pride in some rough waters, looking down the corridor gave to some interesting sights.

Considering the length and size of the Bilbao and Rotterdam, I would think that the vessels would show some bending and make some groans while in heavier seas, no? I know they tend to be over-built, but to show hardly and signs of flexing could be dangerous to the entire structural soundness of the vessel, no?
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Stuart2007

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Re: HMHS Britannic
« Reply #68 on: June 19, 2007, 22:59:16 »

The pobi was way over engineered for her purpose, that I do KNOW. Well advanced for 1986. I've been very lucky to see a little below deck and she's built like a battleship- but Im no engineer.

I've never watched before, but Ill make a point next time (soon) :D She doesn't creak at all (I DO) and Ive sailed in pretty grotty weather. I know she was built to handle Baltic and Artic ice...

I know stories of the US WW2 liberty ships that snapped in half.

Stu
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LucAtC

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Re: HMHS Britannic
« Reply #69 on: June 19, 2007, 23:04:18 »

Hello,
You are right indeed, and the sinking of Erika is an example of hull failing under bending stresses in a heavy sea, originating from rust not discovered by RINA inspectors, I think.
I know not much of passenger liners or ferry superstructures, but there are still naval vessels with expansion joints. There are also superstructures (blocks?) resting on elastic supports (name??).
As for the deflection from bending, some cm would be normal, while remaining easily in the elastic domain, far from fatigue limits, just as was the torsion of a hull visible in a video of Youtube (who knows the reference?).
Well, just as in a steel bridge (best visible underneath) submitted to a heavy traffic.
Are there still structural failures  :( of ships, like the Erika, although there are classification societies, etc...?

Regards,
Luc
Edit: Well, found an example  http://www.tsb.gc.ca/en/reports/marine/2000/m00c0026/m00c0026.asp
« Last Edit: June 19, 2007, 23:52:53 by LucAtC »
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Stuart2007

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Re: HMHS Britannic
« Reply #70 on: June 19, 2007, 23:13:23 »

Next time I go on holiday, I'm going by plane ;)

Stu
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[RWP]DJM

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Re: HMHS Britannic
« Reply #71 on: June 19, 2007, 23:15:37 »

Next time I go on holiday, I'm going by plane ;)

Stu

LOL, as far as me never sailing.....I rest my case ;D
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Stuart2007

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Re: HMHS Britannic
« Reply #72 on: June 19, 2007, 23:32:41 »

Do you not like ships then? Or do you get seasick? I know many people do (I did ONCE... but that was right after I found the bar on POB was selling Stella...)

Stu
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[RWP]DJM

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Re: HMHS Britannic
« Reply #73 on: June 19, 2007, 23:36:42 »

To be perfectly honest, I've never really felt the need to sail.  I do love ships, Titanic being my favourite, but prefer dry land ;)

Kinda strange really, because I love Ship Sim ;D

Regards.

DJM.
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mporter

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Re: HMHS Britannic
« Reply #74 on: June 20, 2007, 00:18:41 »

Next time I go on holiday, I'm going by plane ;)

Stu

Ships are actually in general very safe-- preferable to planes in that if there is a problem one's fate is closer to being in one's own hands than if in a plane.

Look closely at the next good-sized flatbed truck (probably "lorry" to you) you see carrying something heavy, maybe a bulldozer.  It will flex (load bouncing up and down) as it goes down the road, but it will usually get where it is going.

I suspect the Pride of Bilbao may as well, but one has to be in the right place to see it  ;D

@ Luc -- superstructures on springs or other soft mounts are for vibration isolation and the comfort of the crew, which is another issue.  the 124' Towboat I'm working on has its superstructure mounted on 20 spring-isolators.

Cheers,
Michael

EDIT PS @ Stu:  Next time you fly, take a look out the window and watch the wings waggle, especially if there is any turbulence   ;D ;D ;D



« Last Edit: June 20, 2007, 22:16:35 by mporter »
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