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Author Topic: Modern cruise ships `SCARE THE HELL OUT OF ME`  (Read 5552 times)

Trampship Man

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Modern cruise ships `SCARE THE HELL OUT OF ME`
« on: June 18, 2010, 14:59:39 »

                                                             Floating disasters just waiting to happen !

I sailed in tankers and `tramps` [though mostly in `tramps`] in the 40`s/50`s era, and the ships of my day were pretty small compared to the `Goliaths` of today.   I never had much time for passenger ships, regarded them as nothing more than floating hotels.   However, I must say that the ships of that time did at least look like ships. They had sheer and grace and beauty, were lovely to look at !    Quite unlike the hideous monstrosities of today,  the ugly floating apartment blocks or tower blocks which are all from `Disney Land` and completely lacking in any sense of grace or beauty whatsoever.  Many of the old `tramps` also had beautiful lines and even the plainest of old tramps at least had `bags of  character` which certainly cannot be found in todays huge `box boats`. [ I do realise that the old windjammer men probably said the same things about the coming of steamships ].   
         I well remember hard times in quite small ships battling atrocious weather and being practically `underwater` for days on end.  I remember being `vessel not under command` for almost three days in the Bay of Biscay, the ship being battered and hurled about `here there and everywhere` by  incredible winds and the most ferocious of seas.  This because the ship just did not have sufficient power to maintain `steerage way` under those conditions. There was no one on the wheel  [it would have been pointless]  and the wheel was just `lashed fast`.
         I come now to the point of this dialogue.  The point is that throughout many such experiences at sea I was never ever at any time scared. I found such experiences to be exhilarating and challenging.  This I promise is not said out of BRAVADO,  but maybe is an example of the `foolishness of youth`.    The point I wish to make is that whilst I was never scared on those ships of old,  these hideous and monstrous cruise `ships` [?]  of today  just  SCARE THE HELL OUT OF ME !     Maybe they should, maybe they shouldn`t ?   Though I`ll tell you why I feel this way.           
         The truth is that I have never even stepped aboard such a vessel,  However there are factors relating to them which disturb me.    I read accounts of  problems with unruly and `mouthy` passengers , people who it seems cannot accept reason or common sense, and of how crew members are unable to control such people.   I read of poorly trained and even untrained crew members who in the event of  an emergency would be unlikely to know their `a—es from their elbows`.  In fact I get the impression that there really are very few real seamen around these days anyway.    I read also of mixed crews of different races, half of whom cannot understand what the other half are saying.  THAT must be A REAL MORAL BOOSTER in times of crisis !    Actually concerning some of todays seafarers [note I did not say seamen !]  I seem to recall an incident from a few years back when a Greek cruise ship had a fire in the engine room.  Apparently in no time at all the crew including the Master had taken to the boats leaving the passengers aboard to fend for themselves.  I seem to remember that the passengers actually put the fire out themselves before later being rescued, and that the captain of the ship was eventually jailed for his actions.    Anyway, to return to my point.!    I look at the sheer size of these huge modern monstrosities,  and the incredibly ridiculously huge numbers of passengers they will carry.  I consider the reports of indiscipline among these passengers of today. [ not like the days of  Titanic, Birkenhead, and many others ].  I think of the apparent lack of real well trained seamen today,  and the apparent level of incompetency  in some of todays crews.   I  think upon these things and I imagine the probable absolute panic and sheer bedlam which could ensue should one of these monstrosities be stricken with a real crisis.    I`m afraid I regard all such vessels as `gigantic floating disasters just waiting to happen`.   
         I accept that ALL ships [ considering their purposes and their environment ]  could logically be regarded as potential disasters waiting to happen.   However, bearing in mind the potentially massive SCALE of  such disasters  happening to these modern  `Goliaths`,   then yes !  they really do  SCARE THE HELL OUT OF ME !
         To my mind building such `creations`  [note I still will not call them ships !]  is nothing short of madness,  though of course will continue if out of greed alone.       
          Is there any one out there of like mind to myself ?   Or have I been reading the wrong sort of literature ? 
 OR  am I simply being `paranoid` ?   Then again, some might say that I`m `just an old dinosaur`!   
          Come on now, I really do want your views on this one !   

Regards to all ,    Ken.

Note:-  Posted on other sites also.
 
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Trampshipman

clanky

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Re: Modern cruise ships `SCARE THE HELL OUT OF ME`
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2010, 18:49:57 »

"I read accounts of  problems with unruly and `mouthy` passengers , people who it seems cannot accept reason or common sense, and of how crew members are unable to control such people."

Regardless of the size or design of the ship this will be an issue.

"I read of poorly trained and even untrained crew members who in the event of  an emergency would be unlikely to know their `a—es from their elbows`.  In fact I get the impression that there really are very few real seamen around these days anyway. "

It is true that levels of training have deteriorated in many areas, a lot of the traditional seamanship has disappeared and todays crews would struggle to operate an older ship, but likewise the technology has improved and these ships are fitted with safety features that many of the old liners were not.  The crews of yesteryear would be as lost on a modern ship as some of today "seafarers" would be on an older ship.

"I read also of mixed crews of different races, half of whom cannot understand what the other half are saying.  THAT must be A REAL MORAL BOOSTER in times of crisis !"

Not everyone can communicate with everyone else, but those in key positions can all communicate with each other and can communicate with those in their departments.  I am presently sailing on a ship with 5 different nationalities onboard (and that is counting an Englishman, a Scotsman and an Irishman as being the same!) and I can honestly say that while communication is not always straight forward it is never an issue in the safe and efficient operation of the ship.

" I look at the sheer size of these huge modern monstrosities,  and the incredibly ridiculously huge numbers of passengers they will carry.  I consider the reports of indiscipline among these passengers of today. [ not like the days of  Titanic, Birkenhead, and many others ].  I think of the apparent lack of real well trained seamen today,  and the apparent level of incompetency  in some of todays crews.   I  think upon these things and I imagine the probable absolute panic and sheer bedlam which could ensue should one of these monstrosities be stricken with a real crisis.    I`m afraid I regard all such vessels as `gigantic floating disasters just waiting to happen`. " 


While there is certainly some merit in what you say I would argue the following:

1. You underestimate some of the "incompetent" crews onboard modern ships, yes they may struggle to splice a wire, but they can do what is required of them on a modern ship and they usually take a pride in doing so.  Although they are very different from the old hands they are just as much "real seamen"

2. You underestimate the effect of the technological advances in firefighting and structural fire protection in modern ships, yes, of course disasters can happen, but lets not forget that the Titanic was an old fashioned ship crewed by old fashioned sailors, the modern cruise ships would almost take a concerted effort of will for a fire to take hold and spread or for a single collision to cause sinking.

Yes, they are hideously ugly, yes the sheer size of these ships pose huge challenges in safety and emergency management, yes a cruise on one of these monstrosities would be my idea of hell, but if anything these ships are not only theoretically safer, but have an infinitely better safety record than anything which has gone before.
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Sam

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Re: Modern cruise ships `SCARE THE HELL OUT OF ME`
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2010, 22:52:01 »

Technology made life easyer for seamen.

But they shure most be well trained in using all of that. Biceaus a lot of accidents are caused by lazy undertrained crew.

And there are a lot more ships around the world then 40 years ago.
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saltydog

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Re: Modern cruise ships `SCARE THE HELL OUT OF ME`
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2010, 00:44:39 »

Never mind the ship..
Fat people on board with a 24-hour buffet would scare me.. ;D
« Last Edit: June 20, 2010, 04:56:54 by saltydog »
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oceandream

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Re: Modern cruise ships `SCARE THE HELL OUT OF ME`
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2010, 00:55:13 »

 :o
This cant be real!

Besides in curacao we call those people" Precios mega mammoths" :doh:
« Last Edit: June 19, 2010, 00:57:04 by oceandream »
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MVEsperanza

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Re: Modern cruise ships `SCARE THE HELL OUT OF ME`
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2010, 01:19:29 »

Never mind the ship..
Fat Americans on board with a 24-hour buffet would scare me.. ;D

Hey Im Not fat

I weigh 120 lol
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saltydog

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Re: Modern cruise ships `SCARE THE HELL OUT OF ME`
« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2010, 01:40:33 »

In 10 years you will be twice that.. ;D
« Last Edit: June 19, 2010, 01:42:25 by saltydog »
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MVEsperanza

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Re: Modern cruise ships `SCARE THE HELL OUT OF ME`
« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2010, 01:41:29 »

In 10 years you will be twice that.. ;D

Yha right with my genes My moms a Model

I have a great matabilism
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saltydog

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Re: Modern cruise ships `SCARE THE HELL OUT OF ME`
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2010, 01:45:30 »

You're American..You're gonna be a fatty.. ;D
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MVEsperanza

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Re: Modern cruise ships `SCARE THE HELL OUT OF ME`
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2010, 01:51:43 »

You're American..You're gonna be a fatty.. ;D

Nope Im serious im not Fat at all

Look

The One on the LEFT

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saltydog

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Re: Modern cruise ships `SCARE THE HELL OUT OF ME`
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2010, 01:56:02 »

Just kidding MV, (thank god you're not the one on the right..)
You will look gorgeous for a long time.. ;D
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MVEsperanza

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Re: Modern cruise ships `SCARE THE HELL OUT OF ME`
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2010, 02:02:59 »

Just kidding MV, (thank god you're not the one on the right..)
You will look gorgeous for a long time.. ;D

Lol that would be scared if i was the one on the left she said she already eat thats why i looked at her wierd
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RMS Canada

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Re: Modern cruise ships `SCARE THE HELL OUT OF ME`
« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2010, 02:31:07 »

Cruise ships are as ugly as hell (eg. Oasis of the Sea's stern; what they they thinking?!) 
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All ahead full!

MVEsperanza

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Re: Modern cruise ships `SCARE THE HELL OUT OF ME`
« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2010, 02:39:21 »

Cruise ships are as ugly as hell (eg. Oasis of the Sea's stern; what they they thinking?!) 

Entertainment and Money Making
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saltydog

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Re: Modern cruise ships `SCARE THE HELL OUT OF ME`
« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2010, 02:49:08 »

You got that right..that's all it is..
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MVEsperanza

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Re: Modern cruise ships `SCARE THE HELL OUT OF ME`
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2010, 02:51:13 »

ALthough i do like the ship Not as much as my Baby though the Esperanza!
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Trampship Man

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Re: Modern cruise ships `SCARE THE HELL OUT OF ME`
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2010, 15:47:05 »

Technology made life easyer for seamen.

But they shure most be well trained in using all of that. Biceaus a lot of accidents are caused by lazy undertrained crew.

And there are a lot more ships around the world then 40 years ago.



Sam,    I don`t think you`ve got that last bit [a lot more ships now] quite right somehow.   Don`t forget that the modern container ships or `box boats` are the very ships that killed off thousands of the old traditional cargo ships or `tramps`.    One such modern container ship carrying six, eight, or even ten times the cargo carried by the traditional ships of yesterday.    Just as todays supertankers killed off all the ten and twelve thousand ton tankers of yesterday.    I doubt very much that there are anywhere near as many ships at sea today as there were from the 40`s to the 60`s.    Think also of the many ports worldwide which were at one time thriving and absolutely crammed with shipping, which are now desolate or even `long gone`.   I am of course open to correction if any one knows different.!
    Thanks for your interest.           Regards,  Ken.
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Trampshipman

mvsmith

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Re: Modern cruise ships `SCARE THE HELL OUT OF ME`
« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2010, 16:36:43 »

If the VLCCs and container ships killed the aging T2 and Liberty ships that were killing seamen, then that is something to be thankful for.
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Trampship Man

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Re: Modern cruise ships `SCARE THE HELL OUT OF ME`
« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2010, 17:44:59 »

"I read accounts of  problems with unruly and `mouthy` passengers , people who it seems cannot accept reason or common sense, and of how crew members are unable to control such people."

Regardless of the size or design of the ship this will be an issue.

"I read of poorly trained and even untrained crew members who in the event of  an emergency would be unlikely to know their `a—es from their elbows`.  In fact I get the impression that there really are very few real seamen around these days anyway. "

It is true that levels of training have deteriorated in many areas, a lot of the traditional seamanship has disappeared and todays crews would struggle to operate an older ship, but likewise the technology has improved and these ships are fitted with safety features that many of the old liners were not.  The crews of yesteryear would be as lost on a modern ship as some of today "seafarers" would be on an older ship.

"I read also of mixed crews of different races, half of whom cannot understand what the other half are saying.  THAT must be A REAL MORAL BOOSTER in times of crisis !"

Not everyone can communicate with everyone else, but those in key positions can all communicate with each other and can communicate with those in their departments.  I am presently sailing on a ship with 5 different nationalities onboard (and that is counting an Englishman, a Scotsman and an Irishman as being the same!) and I can honestly say that while communication is not always straight forward it is never an issue in the safe and efficient operation of the ship.

" I look at the sheer size of these huge modern monstrosities,  and the incredibly ridiculously huge numbers of passengers they will carry.  I consider the reports of indiscipline among these passengers of today. [ not like the days of  Titanic, Birkenhead, and many others ].  I think of the apparent lack of real well trained seamen today,  and the apparent level of incompetency  in some of todays crews.   I  think upon these things and I imagine the probable absolute panic and sheer bedlam which could ensue should one of these monstrosities be stricken with a real crisis.    I`m afraid I regard all such vessels as `gigantic floating disasters just waiting to happen`. " 


While there is certainly some merit in what you say I would argue the following:

1. You underestimate some of the "incompetent" crews onboard modern ships, yes they may struggle to splice a wire, but they can do what is required of them on a modern ship and they usually take a pride in doing so.  Although they are very different from the old hands they are just as much "real seamen"

2. You underestimate the effect of the technological advances in firefighting and structural fire protection in modern ships, yes, of course disasters can happen, but lets not forget that the Titanic was an old fashioned ship crewed by old fashioned sailors, the modern cruise ships would almost take a concerted effort of will for a fire to take hold and spread or for a single collision to cause sinking.

Yes, they are hideously ugly, yes the sheer size of these ships pose huge challenges in safety and emergency management, yes a cruise on one of these monstrosities would be my idea of hell, but if anything these ships are not only theoretically safer, but have an infinitely better safety record than anything which has gone before.


Clanky,     [ Firstly my apologies to the site for including the full `quote` again, but I don`t know how to break it down or select single passages.  I`m really pretty `thick` concerning PC`s,  maybe some one will advise me on that ].        Okay, back to Clanky now.    You`ve made some pretty interesting points there mate, and I ALMOST feel a little guilty at questioning the merits of present day seamen.  I say `almost` because I continue
to think about the behaviour of the captain and most of the crew of the Greek ship `Oceanos` on 4th day of August, 1991. off the West coast of Africa.  Though I do acknowledge that `exceptions` are to be found everywhere.      I would agree with you on the `wonders` of modern technology, the degree of automation etc today is certainly pretty `mind boggling`.   However, there are quite a few examples of modern technology failing, and sometimes in a pretty big way.    We can also look at the fantastic technological advances in aviation today.   Our airliners are bigger than ever and fitted with every technological gadget possible.  In fact they don`t even need pilots for most of the time.  Yet every now and then despite all the modern gadgetry an airliner will inexplicably disappear or crash  with large loss of life.   To my mind this simply says that at the end of the day all our technology, all our wonderful automation and systems thereof, are not foolproof and are only as good as their designers and operators, and more importantly are in fact still largely subject to mechanical or electrical failure [despite back up systems] or can still be affected or rendered largely ineffectual by `good old`and never to be eliminated `human error`.
          Cruise ships will undoubtedly continue to get bigger.  Not of course for the benefit of the travelling public,
but rather for faster and ever bigger profits for their owners or operators.   We are talking today of something like 2000 passengers aboard a cruise ship are we not ?  This of course could eventually double or even more.
Pretty mind boggling I think !   I am simply saying "where will we `draw the line`" ?   Where in terms of risk will`acceptable`end, and where will `unacceptable`begin ?    I remain convinced that all the technology and safety features in the world could simply be absolutely `overwhelmed` by 2000 [or eventually 4000 or whatever] panic stricken passengers !  I could add that `time may yet tell`!  Though of course I sincerely hope that such a thing never happens.
          Now to change the subject. I`ve been meaning to ask you what influenced you to select the title of `Clanky`?   I imagine it will be the engineering connection, am I right ?    I think you may now suspect what`s coming next ?    How`s your `big end` Clanky ?   [a clanking engine usually signified to me that my `big end` had `gone`.    Thanks for your `post`, I always find you interesting.    My apologies for the pathetic `joke`.

Regards,  
Ken.  

    
 
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Trampshipman

Shipaddict

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Re: Modern cruise ships `SCARE THE HELL OUT OF ME`
« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2010, 18:26:15 »

Hi Ken :)

About your point on the passenger numbers in cruise ships - 2000 I think is more average to lower end on cruise ships of today. The world's largest (and one of the most awful looking) cruise ships is Oasis of the Seas, which when passengers and crew are combined takes a total of 8500 people.

You said that you think cruise ships will get bigger, personally I don't think they will get much bigger in the near future. I think most cruise lines will find it hard to beat Oasis of the Seas in terms of dimensions and capacity. Of course that's just my opinion, I'm sure others also have there own!

Cheers,
Mike
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Sam

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Re: Modern cruise ships `SCARE THE HELL OUT OF ME`
« Reply #20 on: June 19, 2010, 22:26:32 »

About technology,
I am a student at a nautical college in the Netherlands. And my teachers take their time to teach us the most basic and important principles. They allso tell us how important it is to know that biceaus if something fails, you must be able to do it the old fashioned way.
For example radar. We had to practice manual plotting for a half a year before we where allowed to work with a ARPA radar. We then had to be able to plot 3 ships constantly.
That helped me to understand the operation of a ARPA radar much faster.

About ship density,
I think transport by ship has grown a lot, the ships got much bigger, but the demand for transport allso got a lot bigger I think. Why? A lot of ports have grown a lot and are still growing, especially with the upcoming of the East.


But I must agree with you that seamen aren't what they used to be.
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Trampship Man

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Re: Modern cruise ships `SCARE THE HELL OUT OF ME`
« Reply #21 on: June 20, 2010, 12:42:52 »

Hi Ken :)

About your point on the passenger numbers in cruise ships - 2000 I think is more average to lower end on cruise ships of today. The world's largest (and one of the most awful looking) cruise ships is Oasis of the Seas, which when passengers and crew are combined takes a total of 8500 people.

You said that you think cruise ships will get bigger, personally I don't think they will get much bigger in the near future. I think most cruise lines will find it hard to beat Oasis of the Seas in terms of dimensions and capacity. Of course that's just my opinion, I'm sure others also have there own!

Cheers,
Mike
   
           
Mike,      I had no idea that passenger numbers had reached the epic proportions which you describe.    Now `THAT REALLY IS SCARY !`               Regards,       Ken.
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Trampshipman

Trampship Man

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Re: Modern cruise ships `SCARE THE HELL OUT OF ME`
« Reply #22 on: June 20, 2010, 13:20:51 »

Hi again to all,
    I imagine it`s mainly the youngsters who `actually like` these floating `apartment blocks`.  Still, I guess that`s quite understandable since they haven`t really known any different !                                             
    Whatever ?  Thanks for all your views.  I seem to have `started something` with this one.

Regards,

Ken.
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Trampshipman

thom301

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Re: Modern cruise ships `SCARE THE HELL OUT OF ME`
« Reply #23 on: June 20, 2010, 13:28:47 »

must say i dont like them modern cruisships but i dont hate them.

i like the older ships. Like this one the NV Savannah
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The Ferry Man

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Re: Modern cruise ships `SCARE THE HELL OUT OF ME`
« Reply #24 on: June 20, 2010, 14:21:00 »

Hi again to all,
    I imagine it`s mainly the youngsters who `actually like` these floating `apartment blocks`.  Still, I guess that`s quite understandable since they haven`t really known any different !                                             
    Whatever ?  Thanks for all your views.  I seem to have `started something` with this one.

Regards,

Ken.
As a oldish youngster (assuming 22 still counts as a youngster) - I prefer the older styles...

The newer ones don't look so good...

and as for the topic name:

 Modern cruise ships `SCARE THE HELL OUT OF ME`

well, I think this answers that...

http://80.95.161.114/shipsim/forum/index.php/topic,16167.msg258720.html#msg258720
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TFMs Guide to Crossing the Dover Channel (http://forum.shipsim.com/index.php/topic,21107.0.html)
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