Topic: Laws of the sea (Read 17538 times)

Captain Davies · « **on:** July 12, 2007, 18:43:40 »

Quote from: Stuart2007 on July 12, 2007, 00:18:35

If I understand rightly, laws on a ship are generally applied by the country of registration (whether this applies whilst your ship is in territorial waters is another matter).

I think, when it come to Navy Ships, then being on board that ship means you are on territory belonging to the owning country, according to international law. A good example of this is the Great Train Robbery, where ring leader Ronnie Bigs escaped to Brazil. There he started a family and so could not be extradited by the police. He was invited aboard a RN ship by for a meal (they must have seen it as some sort of joke; to dine with a fellon).

Then they let him go, thinking that was all they could do. When the British Government found out they went crazy, because he was on a British ship, the captain and crew had powers of arrest, and they hadn't even realised it.

Stuart2007 · « **Reply #1 on:** July 12, 2007, 23:24:15 »

That's what I thought. I didn't know that story though.

Does the Captain still have that right when his ship is in 'foreign' waters though?

For example- I was on a ferry in France (British flagged) when a serious assault took place- who has jurisdiction? The French or the British. I know that it is different situation from your Naval example.

---
On the Lloyds register website there are several articles regarding piracy of ships. It seems it is quite a bit more common than is reported as many shipping companies are worried about worrying their customers and risking increased insurance premiums.

If I understand rightly there are no international laws as such, just multi-lateral agreements between countries.

Stu

Stu

LucAtC · « **Reply #2 on:** July 13, 2007, 01:16:18 »

Hello Stu,
A naval vessel is indeed part of the territory of its country, wherever it sails, until it is decommissioned.
That is also why they need the agreement of the country of destination to enter the territorial waters, but of course there are also MOUs between nations to ease the procedures.
Regards,
Luc
Commercial and private vessels are of course subject to the laws and customs of the country as soon as they enter the territorial waters, and to the international laws (fishing, drug, piracy, ...) in international waters.
Luc

UUUUUHHHHHH · « **Reply #3 on:** July 13, 2007, 10:08:31 »

back on topic

Wout · « **Reply #4 on:** July 13, 2007, 10:48:22 »

Quote from: UUUUUHHHHHH on July 11, 2007, 12:28:23

i added poll

I closed poll

Seriously, could you please at least pretend you are a bit of a grown up? Adding a poll is ok, but make it a bit more serious please. Sometimes jokes can go a bit to far.

adamano · « **Reply #5 on:** July 13, 2007, 13:27:19 »

Hmm i would remove those last two options, give a very bad imature look of yourself

Captain Davies · « **Reply #6 on:** July 14, 2007, 13:05:13 »

Quote from: Stuart2007 on July 12, 2007, 23:24:15

For example- I was on a ferry in France (British flagged) when a serious assault took place- who has jurisdiction?

Private vessels are under the laws of the territory they are in. I have another example to show this (not quite as detailed). Two smugglers, are making their escape from the UK (this is a true story by the way). They know the police could pick up their trail at any moment but if they can reach international waters they will be safe. They are on a ferry to Denmark (I think) by the time the police pick up the trail and reach the dock, the ferry has set sail.

A customs boat now has to race to get to that ferry before it covers the 12 miles to international waters. They do reach it in time, and manage to get it to stop. They arrest the two men, and take them back to shore.

Now, this shows that a private ship is under the duresdiction of the country it is in. But in international waters, no one has duresdiction, certainly not of arrest. This must be the case because surely; if the ship belonged to Denmark in international waters, then the UK govt would simply call them and ask for permission to board and arrest.

In the example you gave it would be the French that had duresdiction, and could board the ferry without permission from Britain.

saken41 · « **Reply #7 on:** July 14, 2007, 13:14:29 »

Hey! This was my idea on the old Shipsim forum

, but you can borrow it if you want

.

Ship Sim · « **Reply #8 on:** July 15, 2007, 07:09:51 »

My self I think it would not last to long due to her weight and length the ship would have alo of stress in 40 to 50ft waves or less because parts of he ship would be out of the ship would be out of the water and the hull would twist and bind also the glass might break from the movements. The ship would have a useful life like every ship at sea after sometime the ship would have to be taken out of service. Then everyone will have to find a place to live. Also the ship would have to eventualy go to drydock for hull paint and serviceing but the problem is thet there is no 4000 foot long drydock on Earth.

So I think it is not possiable for this ship to last or be built.

Captain Davies · « **Reply #9 on:** July 15, 2007, 12:09:51 »

Those are some very good points that I had not thought of. I agree with you Ship Sim.

Stuart2007 · « **Reply #10 on:** July 15, 2007, 13:32:29 »

Quote from: Captain Davies on July 14, 2007, 13:05:13

In the example you gave it would be the French that had duresdiction, and could board the ferry without permission from Britain.

Thanks Capt. D. I think I remember that in the papers a few years back. I suppose if a ship was British flagged and the British Police wanted it, boarding in international waters wouldn't be so hard.

As for foreign waters, I assume that permission to enter foreign waters must automatically confer rights to the host country to board your vessel. I can see why Capt. Ross (ex PO Bilbao) explained that he had become more of a solicitor than a skipper!

Stu

PS If you want to carry this fascinating subject on, then we could move it to small talk as we're drifting off subject.

Stuart2007 · « **Reply #11 on:** July 15, 2007, 13:34:13 »

Quote from: Ship Sim on July 15, 2007, 07:09:51

So I think it is not possiable for this ship to last or be built.

Perhaps it has been designed to be built from several barge sections which are connected by large meccano sets and split for maintenance?

Academic point as it will never be built.

Stu

Ship Sim · « **Reply #12 on:** July 16, 2007, 05:52:06 »

Quote from: Stuart2007 on July 15, 2007, 13:34:13

Perhaps it has been designed to be built from several barge sections which are connected by large meccano sets and split for maintenance?

Academic point as it will never be built.

Stu

Problem is thet in heavy seas these barges could break apart or get twisted. If it happend thet it was bent in veary rough seas it would be condemmed or have serious damage. So the cost would be more than the profit. Also the ship si almos a mile long so it would have a hard time turning. Also what would happen if another ship crashed into it.

Ship Sim · « **Reply #13 on:** July 16, 2007, 05:59:09 »

It is a nice ship but if a 40 to 60ft wave crashed in to it what do you think would happen.

Captain Davies · « **Reply #14 on:** July 16, 2007, 13:14:40 »

Quote from: Ship Sim on July 16, 2007, 05:52:06

Also what would happen if another ship crashed into it.

Frankly the captain of the ship that crashed into it would have to be quite useless not to spot something that size and avoid it.

groennegaard · « **Reply #15 on:** July 16, 2007, 14:03:50 »

Quote from: Ship Sim on July 16, 2007, 05:52:06

Also what would happen if another ship crashed into it.

That would be almost the same as an insect crushing into your windscreen. Due to it's enormous displacement I do not think anything would happen to the Freedom Ship. I would rather worry about the other ship crashing into it...

Stuart2007 · « **Reply #16 on:** July 16, 2007, 22:51:04 »

Quote from: Captain Davies on July 16, 2007, 13:14:40

Frankly the captain of the ship that crashed into it would have to be quite useless not to spot something that size and avoid it.

But if it is only a self powered barge, would it have the speed or manouverability? Even if it was spotted from miles away?

Stu

Master Captain · « **Reply #17 on:** July 17, 2007, 02:30:27 »

my opinion is to not have the ship in the game, its too big, it'll forever to start moving, and manoverbility will stink. KM

Captain Davies · « **Reply #18 on:** July 17, 2007, 19:25:36 »

Quote from: Stuart2007 on July 16, 2007, 22:51:04

But if it is only a self powered barge, would it have the speed or manouverability? Even if it was spotted from miles away?

Stu

If what's a self powered barge? The Freedom Ship? I was referring to the other ship that (hypothetically) crashed into the Freedom Ship, which is also hypothetical. Come to think of it so is the boat that crashed into it in the first place.

Stuart2007 · « **Reply #19 on:** July 18, 2007, 01:05:24 »

Sorry Captain D. I can read English (believe it or not) but I do think I need my eyes tested- too many hours staring at a screen.

You are right, but I can not help but think of that giant car transporter which sank in the Channel... despite the presence of light ships, French Coastguard and a Royal Navy Frigate, a freighter still managed to hit the wreck.

ha ha. What about some sunday sailor on his 20ft yacht "Oi. Out the way- powered ships give way to sail..." BANG.

Stu

Captain Kool · « **Reply #20 on:** July 18, 2007, 11:53:33 »

Quote

Now, this shows that a private ship is under the duresdiction of the country it is in. But in international waters, no one has duresdiction, certainly not of arrest. This must be the case because surely; if the ship belonged to Denmark in international waters, then the UK govt would simply call them and ask for permission to board and arrest.

That's where the United Nations Marine Laws come into play.

Captain Davies · « **Reply #21 on:** July 18, 2007, 12:43:50 »

Quote from: Stuart2007 on July 18, 2007, 01:05:24

ha ha. What about some sunday sailor on his 20ft yacht "Oi. Out the way- powered ships give way to sail..." BANG.

LOL, now that guy sounds British!

[RWP]DJM · « **Reply #22 on:** July 18, 2007, 13:57:27 »

Quote from: Captain Davies on July 18, 2007, 12:43:50

LOL, now that guy sounds British!

ROFL. gotta agree with that

Stuart2007 · « **Reply #23 on:** July 18, 2007, 23:16:11 »

Quote from: Captain Kool on July 18, 2007, 11:53:33

That's where the United Nations Marine Laws come into play.

Hi Captain K.

But not every country recognises the UN. Are they actual laws or just multi lateral agreements? I ask not to argue with you on this- I don't know.

Put this way:

Ship W is travelling in ocean X with the flag of country Y (won't use British flag as we surrender to anyone these days) and it is intercepted by a naval vessel/patrol of country Z.

The ship is in international water. What right in ANY law does the patrol boat have to intercept and board the other vessel (unless it is heavily armed- that is usually good authorisation

)?** Maybe if the country Y has authorised it. If I understand correctly there is no hard law in international waters, just a collection of multilateral loose agreements.

I won't argue (this once

) as I don't know enough. If you have knowledge of this, I would appreciate knowing what the status is.

Stu

LucAtC · « **Reply #24 on:** July 19, 2007, 00:50:38 »

Hello Stu,
There is a UN Convention on the Law of the Sea agreed by most maritime countries, and also multilateral agreements indeed. SOLAS, traffic separation schemes, drugs, arms control and surveillance of fishing are not heavily discussed matters, but the commercial and judicial sides (insurance, wreckage, pollution costs, ...) are more confused and need a true expertise. These sites can lead to more infos (thank you Google).
http://www.armscontrol.org/act/2004_06/Panama.asp
http://www.oceanlaw.net/texts/losc.htm

Regards,
Luc

Author Topic: Laws of the sea (Read 17538 times)

saken41

Ship Sim

Ship Sim

Ship Sim