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Author Topic: New vessels & environments  (Read 19298 times)

wisemenkom

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New vessels & environments
« on: August 29, 2008, 06:49:12 »

What's the deal with the shipyard? I thought we'd be getting a new ship and or environment every month or so? Shipyard seems dead to me.
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pauljanaway1

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Re: New vessels & environments
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2008, 09:45:04 »

What's the deal with the shipyard? I thought we'd be getting a new ship and or environment every month or so? Shipyard seems dead to me.

well first they have got to make the ships and things before they can sell them the ships they have in there at the moment where being bult for months and so takes time
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Nathan|C

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Re: New vessels & environments
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2008, 10:05:43 »

We do get new ships every month. The shipyard was released last month and we're getting a new ship this month. So it isn't "dead" it's working exactly as VSTEP said it would.
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gweilo8888

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Re: New vessels & environments
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2008, 18:26:24 »

I have to agree that the pace of vessel releases is ludicrously slow compared to, say, developments in the flightsim community.  I have been for a couple of years now - and remain - somewhat interested in Ship Simulator, but have yet to put any money down on the product. I've downloaded the demo twice, twice found it interesting but too limited, and twice deleted it after deciding that it was simply not ready to hold my interest for more than a matter of days in its current state.

That's largely because the number of vessels and environments available is vastly too small.

It doesn't help when VStep is putting out press releases saying things like the following:

"Following its successful launch this summer, the Shipyard is frequently expanded with new vessels, environments and features for Ship Simulator 2008."

Not to put too fine a point on it, but describing the Shipyard as "frequently expanded" couldn't be a whole lot further from the truth. The Shipyard was released fully two months ago (the initial press release having been distributed on July 8th) - and yet in reality in those two months there have been precisely two additions that could truthfully be described as "new".

Since the launch (and including the items available at launch), there have been two new vessels released in the Shipyard. There have also been two pre-existing vessels released there, both already available for some time in New Horizons.

Contrary to the wording of the press release, there hasn't been a single environment or "feature" added to the Shipyard so far.

It's easy for me to see that VStep is simply too small an organization to provide a reasonable pace of addons for its products. I wouldn't have the least problem with that fact, were it not for the disingenuous press releases making claims that the company quite simply isn't so far able to back up.

However, as an aside it does also suggest to me that VStep has taken the wrong approach - most likely for financial reasons, albeit misguided.  Look at the flight sim community, and you'll find that aircraft models, environments, and new features are coming out from community members all the time - many of them free of charge, and of extremely high quality. Had VStep enabled its users to do the same, we'd likely have dozens if not hundreds of new vessels and environments available or in production.

So why do I think the financial reasons are misguided? Simply put, because I highly doubt I'm alone in being interested in the core product but finding it too limiting.  In the interests of making a small amount of money on the sale of ship models to a small community of existing users, VStep is missing out on the opportunity to increase the size of the community as a whole - and to make significantly more money on sales of the simulator itself, with users attracted by a wide array of readily available third-party vessels and environments at little or no cost.

Perhaps VStep should rethink its strategy in the future, and consider making future products with an eye towards community development of the addons. It's beyond question that this is *possible*, and I'm pretty sure it would turn out to be best not only for the users, but for VStep as well.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2008, 18:28:00 by gweilo8888 »
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mvsmith

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Re: New vessels & environments
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2008, 20:47:31 »

That’s a very lengthy critique from someone who is not even a user of the product.

You are among the legions who compare this simulator to FSX, or some similar product without any real understanding of the reasons why this simulator should not be thrown open to third party providers.

You seem to be trolling this forum for posts that you can parrot to support your position.
At the same time you ignore, or are not able to comprehend, those posts that explain the effort involved in making a player vessel.

While the pace at which VSTEP is able to produce ships and environments that meet their very high standards might not satisfy the impatient kiddies—most of whom treat the sim more as a 3D photo album than as a way to experience the operation of ships—there is a large, but generally silent, customer base that appreciates the care and effort that VSTEP puts into the product.
We would not want to see VSTEP relax their standards just to cater to someone’s non-qualified idea of what their business model should be.

Your dissatisfaction with the development of the program suggests that you are perhaps not a prospective customer that VSTEP should court. They would be getting a constant complainer who would never be satisfied, and would soon abandon the program without significantly contributing to either the program or to the bottom line.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2008, 00:10:42 by mvsmith »
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Agent|Austin

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Re: New vessels & environments
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2008, 03:19:09 »

It has only been about 2 months with the shipyard and you are already complaining. There are 4 ships now!
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Penguin

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Re: New vessels & environments
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2008, 12:00:54 »

Are you against freedom of speech, mvsmith;D
Why do you become so aggressive?
I can't understand why people who critizise "weak points" in the ShipSimulator idea become attacked in such an unkindly way.
 
Tell me whatever you want, but currently there IS a problem with the time it takes to add new stuff for the players. And even if "VSTEP is able to produce ships and environments that meet their very high standards", I can't say that currently all released ships meet my very high standards. They vary in quality. A number of ships from VSTEP contain bugs (in the majority of cases graphic bugs, but if these were absolutely unimportant we could sail on a universal shoe box, I suggest), that's a fact and while I know that fixing these bugs costs manpower / money and VSTEP has to set priorities, there is this problem that VSTEP can't fix these bugs prompt.
And by the way: Using nearly the same motor sound for several totally different ships, as VSTEP does, is not the best idea, I think.

It simply currently takes too long to improve the ShipSim, players become bored and stay away. Please bear in mind that there are other maritime products which compete with ShipSim 08 so we should welcome all critic voices which could help to improve the ShipSim concept. 

 
EDIT by Penguin: Expression
« Last Edit: September 09, 2008, 13:39:19 by Penguin »
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Traddles

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Re: New vessels & environments
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2008, 15:05:34 »

Might I suggest that nobody is against free speech but Marty (mvsmith that is) does have a serious point here. It seems to me that too often if someone disagrees with another person then we end up getting aggressive, which is unnecessary, and I fail to see where the aggression is in Marty's post. He is simply pointing out a few truths. Perhaps Penguin, before you complain so bitterly, it would be wiser to check up on the reasons for what you call delays in adding new stuff. I'm sorry you think the standard of models in the simulator is not up to your expectations, however I would remind you that Vstep, as well as working on this simulator also work on a professional version for professional seafarers to learn their job. Players are perfectly entitled to become bored if they so wish, but I have been playing this simulator since it first appeared and so far I have not become bored, possibly that is because I am a professional seafarer and can appreciate the efforts that have been put into it. Then again, it could well be that I am an old dodderer in the eyes of many, and thus not worthy of having my say. Players are also entitled not to play the simulator if they so wish, but I note that we have over 27,000 members on the forum alone, and that does not cover all who own the simulator, so perhaps not all feel they have been short changed. ::)  I have noticed,as have many of us, that there are a number of forum members who spend a large amount of energy posting complaints, when I feel there are perhaps more things which could be admired rather than complained about. I think, especially, of those who seem to spend time counting rivets and such like, yet have few or no mission completions to their credit. If anyone feels that I am being aggressive, please feel free to say so as I have a very thick skin and do not take offence very easily. :-*

Angus.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2008, 15:23:31 by Traddles »
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Penguin

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Re: New vessels & environments
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2008, 17:26:41 »

You are right, Angus: Formal 27.000 members.

Please feel free to check the "Views" counters, see how many members regularly follow VSTEPs news and announcements and also pls.don't hesitate to look at the other board "Views" counters, if you like to.

Wake up, the active community isn't as big as you think...
If the story of ShipSim shall be continued VSTEP will need the so called "impatient kiddies". Or do you really think a handful patient seafarers can be the sole target group?
Did you never think about the current situation on VSTEPs multiplayer servers? Where are these 27.000 members?
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mvsmith

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Re: New vessels & environments
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2008, 17:51:14 »

Did you never think about the current situation on VSTEPs multiplayer servers? Where are these 27.000 members?

Perhaps they don’t care to be rammed. Perhaps, as adults, they have lives apart from Ship Simulator. Perhaps they turn to SS for interesting relaxation after a day in the real world and are content to wait for each new addition while they enjoy what they have.

You may not have grasped the fact that the above complainer, by his own admission and posts, is not a user of SS. Apparently his only experience is with last year’s demo. That hardly equips him to judge the current state of Ship Simulator.

We sometimes get rants from those who are not serious users and are simply looking for an excuse to vent their spleens, occasioned perhaps by frustration or failure in an area not related to Ship Simulator.
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TerryRussell

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Re: New vessels & environments
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2008, 17:52:40 »

Penguin,

What data do you have about total numbers on all the User-hosted servers and Vstep servers?

Why do you think the number of people on the MP servers backs up your views? I don't follow the logic in that.

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Traddles

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Re: New vessels & environments
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2008, 18:04:47 »

Oh dear, here we are again. The reason I personally do not indulge in multiplayer is that there are so many players of low intellect who think it fun to have collisions. For many players the idea is to keep the vessels afloat and to actually do something even faintly resembling reality.

Angus.
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mvsmith

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Re: New vessels & environments
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2008, 18:05:28 »

Yes Terry,
It is a rather ridiculous and arrogant assumption that all users must be regular posters on the forum. A quick glance at the majority of the posts might convince them that it was not a place where they would want to spend their time.
Regards,
Marty
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gweilo8888

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Re: New vessels & environments
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2008, 09:36:24 »

It has been a while since I had time to stop by and read this thread, and I apologize for the fact that by now my reply is dragging an oldie out of the archives - but there were quite a few points I felt worthy of reply (and frankly, the arrogant and condescending tone of one particular post rather bothered me).

That’s a very lengthy critique from someone who is not even a user of the product.

That might just be because I care whether the product is good enough. I took the time to make a reasoned post because I do see that Ship Simulator shows promise - but that it could be much better.

Quote
You are among the legions who compare this simulator to FSX, or some similar product without any real understanding of the reasons why this simulator should not be thrown open to third party providers.

You assume that you're correct that it shouldn't be "thrown open". I happen to disagree. We all have opinions; yours differ from mine.

You're a little off base to suggest that just because mine differs from your own, that I have no "real understanding", though.

Quote
You seem to be trolling this forum for posts that you can parrot to support your position. At the same time you ignore, or are not able to comprehend, those posts that explain the effort involved in making a player vessel.

...and you seem to be unable to handle somebody having a differing opinion without resorting to belittling them and ignoring the substance of their comments, for example claiming I was "trolling ... for posts that [I could] parrot" without any evidence to back this assertion up.

Believe me, I very much understand that a LOT of work is involved in the creation of new vessels, especially quality ones. I clearly indicated I was aware of this when I pointed out that the reason VStep was misguided in its approach was because they were "simply too small an organization to provide a reasonable pace of addons".  A larger organization might be able to work on new vessels, environments, etc. at a good pace, but because of the sheer volume of work involved, it would take dozens if not hundreds of employees to manage this.

Quote
While the pace at which VSTEP is able to produce ships and environments that meet their very high standards might not satisfy the impatient kiddies—most of whom treat the sim more as a 3D photo album than as a way to experience the operation of ships—there is a large, but generally silent, customer base that appreciates the care and effort that VSTEP puts into the product.

Again, with the belittling. I'm not a "kiddie", I'm 35 years old - and while I no longer work in the maritime industry, I worked full-time for many months on (and have many hours of experience at the helm of) a *real* ship - a 139-meter, 11,630-DWT LPG carrier regularly calling at ports in eight countries on both sides of the Atlantic, to be specific.

Quote
We would not want to see VSTEP relax their standards just to cater to someone’s non-qualified idea of what their business model should be.

...and you make assumptions both as to my qualification to offer an opinion on their product and business model, and the community's ability to produce models that are not just of equal quality to VStep's models, but quite possibly of significantly higher quality than VStep has the ability to produce in-house.

Quote
Your dissatisfaction with the development of the program suggests that you are perhaps not a prospective customer that VSTEP should court. They would be getting a constant complainer who would never be satisfied, and would soon abandon the program without significantly contributing to either the program or to the bottom line.

I would suggest that your inability to believe that VStep could be wrong (and that to believe them to be anything other than perfect disqualifies one even to be a suitable prospective customer) probably suggests *you* are the one whom VStep shouldn't be listening to.

*Every* company has the ability to offer a better product than what it currently offers - no company is absolutely perfect. One very good way to improve is to listen to why prospective customers have failed to become *actual* customers.

A better example might be the freedom that Train Simulator users have to create their own routes, scenery, locomotives, carriages and so on.

Unfortunately, the vast majority of what is produced is just bug-ridden junk that has been plagiarised from the few top-quality creators (ahem!).

No, I think Vstep did the right thing by sealing it off.

Yes, much of what is produced by the community is of sub-par quality - but it is easy to filter out the chaff. Indeed, were VStep to open up, they'd find that the community would rapidly offer mechanisms to do so on the user's behalf, in exactly the same way as the flight sim community has done. There are numerous websites that offer comprehensive reviews of the best community-provided products - whether they are free or not. Some of those websites even have reviews authored by real industry professionals with extensive experience of the real-life counterparts to the virtual products they are reviewing.

There is absolutely *no* question in my mind that while there would be plenty of chaff, the cream of the crop would easily meet - and quite likely exceed - the quality of the models VStep provides. If you believe otherwise (and if you have any knowledge of aviation), I suggest you take a look at the products that PMDG offers for flight simulator as one example of the incredibly quality that can be provided by an active third-party development community:

http://www.precisionmanuals.com/

The level of detail in PMDG's models is far, far in advance of anything offered by VStep for Ship Simulator. Their models are incredibly close to the real world. Look at what's involved just in preparing an aircraft to taxi (and never yet leave the ground) in one of their models:

http://ops.precisionmanuals.com/wiki/PMDG_747-400_Type_Rating_Course_Lesson_1

And that's one of their older models for Flight Sim 2004, not even a current one.

It has only been about 2 months with the shipyard and you are already complaining. There are 4 ships now!

And as I pointed out, of those four ships, two aren't even new models - they're pre-existing models that were already available for sale in New Horizons.

So really, there's only two new ships so far, in two months.

With an active third-party community in place, there could easily have been an order of magnitude more available in the same time period, of equal quality to those created by VStep.

It seems to me that too often if someone disagrees with another person then we end up getting aggressive, which is unnecessary, and I fail to see where the aggression is in Marty's post. He is simply pointing out a few truths.

You might want to re-read his post - or do you consider referring to anybody whose opinion differs as "kiddies" and casting unfounded aspersions on their knowledge and experience to be a normal part of a reasoned and rational, adult discussion?
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Traddles

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Re: New vessels & environments
« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2008, 12:32:18 »

And you are still hypercritical of a product which you haven't even got. ??? That is possibly one of the best I have yet to come across. Wow ::)
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CaptainMike1

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Re: New vessels & environments
« Reply #15 on: October 17, 2008, 12:36:33 »

And you are still hypercritical of a product which you haven't even got. ??? That is possibly one of the best I have yet to come across. Wow ::)

Well said Traddles.

I find it difficult to understand why someone would have so much to say about something which they obviously have no intention of acquiring!!

Mike

 ::)
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mvsmith

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Re: New vessels & environments
« Reply #16 on: October 17, 2008, 14:53:00 »

The above complainer, by his own admission and posts, is not a user of SS. Apparently his only experience is with last year’s demo. That hardly equips him to judge the current state of Ship Simulator.

We sometimes get rants from those who are not serious users and are simply looking for an excuse to vent their spleens, occasioned perhaps by frustration or failure in an area not related to Ship Simulator.


He is simply not worth further effort in responding.
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Thruster

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Re: New vessels & environments
« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2008, 16:17:27 »

Back to topic: does anyone have any idea of what kind of a ship will be in Shipyard? ??? ;D
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Bottman

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Re: New vessels & environments
« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2008, 16:42:20 »

Of course, the next should be the "Jumbo Javelin"... ;)
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Bottman

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CaptainMike1

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Re: New vessels & environments
« Reply #19 on: October 17, 2008, 16:51:51 »

Of course, the next should be the "Jumbo Javelin"... ;)

Is it worth getting excited yet or is it likely to be a long time?
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Bottman

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Re: New vessels & environments
« Reply #20 on: October 17, 2008, 16:56:22 »

Well, it depends on your feeling, how long the rest of the month is! ::)
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Bottman

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Nathan|C

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Re: New vessels & environments
« Reply #21 on: October 17, 2008, 17:06:33 »

I don't think anyone is really that "excited", lots of people just downloaded the Jumbo Javelin Simulator and now they know exactly what to expect.
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CaptainMike1

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Re: New vessels & environments
« Reply #22 on: October 17, 2008, 17:43:45 »

Yes but when we buy it we can play on line on MP !! On our own!! As there is never anyone around!! Great!!
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jemagnussen

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Re: New vessels & environments
« Reply #23 on: October 18, 2008, 15:28:23 »

Yes but when we buy it we can play on line on MP !! On our own!! As there is never anyone around!! Great!!

- and of course no chance of this being a consequence of some of what gweilo8888 has pointed out.... or..?

MS Magnus
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Simaddict

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Re: New vessels & environments
« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2008, 21:52:50 »

I have read with great care and patience the full topic of discussion previous to this post, and as an avid user of Flight Simulator since its inception a few years ago, I cannot understand the relevance of comparison between SHIP Simulator which I own and enjoy, and Flight Simulator. You are comparing to entirely different types of simulator, and as for the vast quantity of addons by third party contributors, these are always as good as they should be, some are even of poor quality, and it is a hard job for the simmer to pick out which is the most suitable. A Lot of the free addon material is mainly copycat material and does not live up to expectations, but it is there for the Simmers Choice. As For Ship Simulator I can only assume that the Production of Ships to the Standard Preffered by the Programme Distributor is a time consuming and complicated proceedure, I am Therefore prepared to wait and allow the required time to pass for new material and reap the benefits of there work, and the added enjoyment acheived.
Simaddict
Anthony (Age 75) Pehaps just another old dodderer having his penneth worth.
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