General Thoughts on ShipSim 2008 as a recent user...

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[DonQuixoteDeLaManche]

General Thoughts on ShipSim 2008 as a recent user...

OK, before I start, I am sure many of these topics have been discussed before elsewhere; but I am trying to put across my point of view and opinion on my observations ~ So don't start flaming me here please!

ShipSim 2008 has some stunningly Good Points as a realistic simulation game (and that is what it is ~ see comments below), which enables the complete beginner up to the semi-professional to actually experience ship handling at multiple levels, with a plethora of kit performance, and handling characteristics.

Many aspects of the game have have stunning graphics provided your PC is appropriately high performance equipped ~ ShipSim seems to always be nudging the upper boundaries of the average users' equipment; and here I take my first issue.

If, and this is a big IF, if VSTEP are marketing this as a game for serious use (and comments in the forum suggest this) then the average serious user is not necessarily going to have the level of PC that is required. Similarly, if ShipSim is primarily a game for higher equipped users then VSTEP need to accommodate two areas for the serious Gamer...

The first is that ShipSim is a Game! ~ That means people are going to have FUN with it and try all sorts of things including, Dare I Say IT, dropping an anchor at 12 knots to see what happens!!!  ...and the results, you will all admit, if unrealistic, are at least spectacular! So my suggestion is do NOT start having a Hissy Fit because people post pictures of the results in the Forum. Just be pleased with the more serious snap-shots of actual operations - there is always going to be a more extreme fringe who treat the game as an arcade feature and VSTEP ought to be pleased they have received the money for the programme. After all, the game is partially funding VSTEP's more serious developments, and if not by much, it is at least probably paying for the office coffee fund ~ So my message is, "Get a sense of proportion".

The second point is that for the serious Gamer then ShipSim has a long way to go ~ The inevitable comparison is of course FlightSim in its various forms and I immediately acknowledge that FlightSim has been in development for far, far longer than ShipSim. Consequently, I further acknowledge that this is probably NOT a fair comparison. However, there are lessons to be learnt AND some comparisons to be made.

As a game, both FlightSim and ShipSim can become a little boring when the vessel (air or sea) settles down into the cruise. Consequently, the game tends to concentrate on a scenario with some form of additional, and extraordinary, activity.

Yet again, as a serious simulation, both simulators are let down by the limitations of access to professional routine tasks such as alternative course planning via chart reading. In this instance, FlightSim has the edge because you can at least view and navigate (clumsily) around the air chart at any time - although you temporarily halt the game. ShipSim's capability to do this is much more severely restricted. (Bear in mind that it took years for MS to enable in-flight filing of a Flight Plan for example!)

Similarly, FlightSim has (at least) the capability for the user to turn on and off various features at various times and in this respect is a compensation - e.g. turn on random or specific failures in the cruise; but keep them off at take-off and landing. Again ShipSim does not have this dynamic in game capability. There lies the dichotomy, because ShipSim, EITHER as a Game OR as a Serious Simulator, then that type of missing feature is a serious deficiency for the Fun or the Serious Training aspect of the software's existence. After all, a quiet moment to make a coffee or fetch another beer from the fridge is welcome; but when we are using the software, we want something to happen!

I called this a Dichotomy above because I do not think that VSTEP are entirely sure themselves as to whether ShipSim actually is a a game or a training aid. I suspect it is actually both a test bed of ideas for the Big Brother ShipSim Professional and other developments and an alternative revenue generator as well ~ but I may be being too (a)cute there! 

Whatever, what I will say is that I have not regretted purchasing ShipSim and Add-ons in the least, and I am going to watch with interest further developments. I will also be adding my constructive comment, thoughts, and ideas to this thread as I gain experience with using both ShipSim and the Mission Editor.

Currently, there are many annoying features and limitations but I intend to explore both possible workarounds and as a last resort suggestions for improvements.

My first suggestion is that VSTEP need to develop some form of start-up SHIPSIM.CFG to enable simpler access in the future to changing dynamics and also, for example, multiple configurations for add-on game controllers. I would think they have similar for the ShipSim Professional environment otherwise how else do they quickly tailor a ship's bridge for different craft's equipment and propulsion types?

Yes, I know that I can reconfigure my game controllers already but it is <double expletive deleted> annoying to have to do this in the middle of a mission when changing, say, from Hovercraft to Red Eagle Raptor! In fact, I have already scrapped several 'promising' custom missions because of the very lack of this capability.

Watch this space, because I am going to be adding to it regularly (possibly even weekly); and furthermore, hopefully watch out for the IDFM and JART Missions if VSTEP approve them.

IDFM is the 'Iles de Frioul Maritime' series currently in development and relate to a small general shipping company based in Porte du Frioul with a near monopolistic control and responsibility for that group of islands economy.

JART I am going to say less about other than it is (possibly) going to be based around New York and San Francisco and with a very different and topical slant on operations than I have seen so far on the servers.

As for my current Wish-List for ShipSim...

1. Better populated scenery - it gets a bit sparse in places (Understatement of the Year!).
2. Scrollable Chart!
3. Constant Terrain qualities - i.e. A hovercraft does NOT sink into the landscape on some terrains.
4. Programmable Statics - I want to be able to program Static Ship movements for say, Pilot Drop-Offs and Pick-Ups.
5. Scrollable Chart!!
6. Dolphins - NOT the mammal variety; I mean mooring Dolphins.
7. Mooring Buoys - self explanatory.
8. Shore Lights at Night.
9. Scrollable Chart!!!
10. SHIPSIM.CFG - as mentioned above in the text.
11. Better control of Conditional WayPoints.
12. Did I mention the Scrollable Chart?
13. A way of multiple Key & Controller Configurations possibly through an INTERFACE.CFG
14. More Default Start Points in Standard Missions and a better means of selection - It isn't obvious that the selection window is dragable and some of the small ship positions are almost impossible to select because of overlay text.
15. Oh yes and before I forget, a Scrollable Chart.

Bon Voyage, Au Revoir,

Don Quixote de La Manche.

[mvsmith]

It’s De La Mancha

[Kapn Jonah]

Hey Terry, mvsmith, i think this ammo, you know, the guy who got banned earlier yesterday for his language and offencive comments towards the developers and a few members (one being Bulkcarrier).

First, i think that for everything your asking for, you will need an even better system to run SS on,and you think the current system requirements are too high? 

VSTEP is a serious game creator, for the current system requirements i wouldnt think anything better would come with it.

Ship Simulator 2008 is the BEST simulator i have ever come by! Obviously it isnt better then Flight Sim, FS has been out there for much longer than SS, how can you compare the 2? SS hasnt gone as far as FS yet, so ust wait and see.

There is a lot more i would like to say about this post, but there is too much and i cant think of a way to word it all correctly, so this is where i will leave it.

But in the future think about what you post about a game on its forum, which is loaded with enthusiasts. Obviously there are flaws in the game, but big deal. In the future before you contradict the game, please think about how much time the developers put into this game, and how much time it consumed. I dont think you can do much better.

Thank You.

[mvsmith]

Thank you Kapn,

As you know there is very little here that I’ve not responded to many times before. I am too weary of the subject to go through it again.

Regards,
Marty

[Kapn Jonah]

No Problem Marty, I'm tired of these kind of posts, where people actually think that VSTEP reads them, but their really just making everyone on the forum angry. I ussually jump to these kind of posts before any of the moderators do anyway I dont like it when people make these big long winded speeches, thinking that they are so much smarter by telling everyone that VSTEP isnt doing a good enough job.....ok im going to stop there, i dont want to get myself really angry.

[mvsmith]

Hi Jonah,

He probably doesn’t know that this is a users forum, run by users. As far as making suggestions to VSTEP goes, he might just as well holler down a well.
 
VSTEP have been planning and evolving these products for years. I doubt he could come up with anything that they have not already considered and prioritized. He is making the common, but silly, assumption that, because a feature does not appear in the present product, the developers have not thought of it, or are ignorant of the need for it—an attitude that could be considered arrogant and insulting.

Regards,
Marty

[TerryRussell]

Hi chaps.

In the interests of balance, I'd like to say that Mr Don does have some valid points. He also has some assumptions that are totally incorrect.

As to the statement that Vstep don't know whether to be a gaming programmer or a serious simulation coder (to paraphrase), let me repeat what Pjotr stated at the release of Ship Simulator Pro 2 (I was there so I heard it).

When Vstep only made professional Simulators, they were asked a number of times if there was a more "gaming" oriented version. So they made Ship Simulator 2006. Feedback from that indicated that some of the more professional users wanted a more technically demanding version, with other changes. So Ship Simulator 2006 Pro was born.

Based on feedback about the market's wants, Ship Simulator 2008 was created.

After that, a number of Naval Training Centres contacted Vstep, saying that they used SS2006 and 2008 to educate trainees, asking if there was a version that could interface into their other equipment, support multiple displays and so on.

Pjotr said that the circle was now turned and Ship Simulator Pro was created from those market requirements.

The Pro versions fathered the gaming versions that fathered the Pro version...

PS, I will also move this to Small Talk, where it belongs.

[IRI5HJ4CK]

I personally think that V-STEP (Cosndering they are a relatively new company) have done well in today's market to bring us a decent game that can challenge the likes of Flight Simulator.

However, you do have some valid points, such as the "Anchor Trick". Personally, I don't mind people doing this on MP, if they aren't in the way, I have a serious side, but a good sense of humour at the same time, so if we're having a bit of fun, and they aren't in the way (if say, I'm towing somebody), I don't mind.

Some people, most being in the past, would have a more serious approach with SS, one time I remember when I first started out here (Seems a long time ago now), that I didn't know the horn signals. So, just as I was near a docked Vermaas, I blew my horn just to let him know I was there, even though he wasn't moving, and he Issued a Kick Vote on me! He said that his reason was: "Your not using the correct horn signals", which I thought was rediculous, and ended up having an argument with him about it.

Although, most people today have a more relaxed attitude, but you still have to draw the line somewhere, for example, I'm not keen on speedboats flying around me when I'm trying to dock somebody with the Sherpa, yesterday I had somebody doing that, I didn't comment, but he eventually went away anyway. I didn't mind as much though, as, even though he was in a Marbella Delight, he still offered to help.

I'm usually quite tolerant on MP with people, I don't complain if something goes wrong, e.g. Somebody gets in the way, I'll just simply give them a quick message to say I'm coming through and all is well (Only If I'm towing somebody). But even so, that dosen't happen often, as most people wouldn't like to be squashed by a Latitude and Sherpa

I say all this even though I actually want to go into the Merchant Navy myself, and I've been boating with dad since I was about 6. Out there you HAVE to take things seriously, I generally have to as dad isn't fantastic when it comes to the GPS, he's more the traditional sort, but he does need me to help out, as Fleetwood is much more deadly when it comes to the sand banks. Whereas back in North Wales, that wasn't a problem.

So overall, I say that Ship Simulator should be approached with an "Easy going" Attitude, but, at the same time, have a level of seriousness on MP (When its appropriate/needed).

Jack.

[JHB]

I personally think that V-STEP (Cosndering they are a relatively new company) have done well in today's market to bring us a decent game that can challenge the likes of Flight Simulator.

However, you do have some valid points, such as the "Anchor Trick". Personally, I don't mind people doing this on MP, if they aren't in the way, I have a serious side, but a good sense of humour at the same time, so if we're having a bit of fun, and they aren't in the way (if say, I'm towing somebody), I don't mind.

Some people, most being in the past, would have a more serious approach with SS, one time I remember when I first started out here (Seems a long time ago now), that I didn't know the horn signals. So, just as I was near a docked Vermaas, I blew my horn just to let him know I was there, even though he wasn't moving, and he Issued a Kick Vote on me! He said that his reason was: "Your not using the correct horn signals", which I thought was rediculous, and ended up having an argument with him about it.

Although, most people today have a more relaxed attitude, but you still have to draw the line somewhere, for example, I'm not keen on speedboats flying around me when I'm trying to dock somebody with the Sherpa, yesterday I had somebody doing that, I didn't comment, but he eventually went away anyway. I didn't mind as much though, as, even though he was in a Marbella Delight, he still offered to help.

I'm usually quite tolerant on MP with people, I don't complain if something goes wrong, e.g. Somebody gets in the way, I'll just simply give them a quick message to say I'm coming through and all is well (Only If I'm towing somebody). But even so, that dosen't happen often, as most people wouldn't like to be squashed by a Latitude and Sherpa

I say all this even though I actually want to go into the Merchant Navy myself, and I've been boating with dad since I was about 6. Out there you HAVE to take things seriously, I generally have to as dad isn't fantastic when it comes to the GPS, he's more the traditional sort, but he does need me to help out, as Fleetwood is much more deadly when it comes to the sand banks. Whereas back in North Wales, that wasn't a problem.

So overall, I say that Ship Simulator should be approached with an "Easy going" Attitude, but, at the same time, have a level of seriousness on MP (When its appropriate/needed).

Jack.

+10 points

----------------------

Strange that he didn't mention Virtual Sailor in his long post
Well some of us are hardcore gamers, some others are dreamers..white another group of people are just puppets.
I'm in the hardcore gamer group while I try to be patient every day. It makes life hard for me and challenging. But that's how it is for a guy like me when I'm writing my own game blog and try to dig up some news that is HOT right now.
But what is HOT now isnt't Ship Simulator, it's PS3 Killzone 2 and I don't think Ship Simulator will become HOT until the day the average "hardcore gamer" accept this game. But to do that the game need to be up to FSX standard you know and everything is just pure awesomeness..haha

I actually agree to both sides in this topic while I still represents the hardcore gamer. So yeah, it's hard tp pick a side

[Ballast]

But what is HOT now isnt't Ship Simulator, it's PS3 Killzone 2 and I don't think Ship Simulator will become HOT until the day the average "hardcore gamer" accept this game. But to do that the game need to be up to FSX standard you know and everything is just pure awesomeness..haha

You can't compare the people who play SS with the people that play Killzone. 

People who play SS have affection in any kind of way with the sea and sailing. I often speak co-workers and fellow mariners and you can put your bet on it that SS is very HOT, as you like to say, among them. Those group is exectly where V-step is aiming at.

[Kapn Jonah]

Well, there has been a lot of posting here since i went to bed around Midnight last night.

Marty.... I hate how people think that VSTEP actually reads their complaint posts(such as this one), because i believe there are only 2 representatives from VSTEP here, Pjotr and Frank_VSTEP. And obviously these things have been thought of before, (i dont know how to say this) but they just can't be put into the games. Im thinking it would take a lot more time than a few months. To think that they are too arrogant t add it in is just ridiculous, to figure that one out you have to be a rocket scientist 

Yeah Jan, you cant really compare us with Killzone players We SS users basically play it becausw we are compassionate about sailing and the sea, as Ballast said. VSTEP isnt aiming at the Killzone players when they create the SS series, their aiming at us, the Ship lovers.

[TerryRussell]

Actually, the sensible and courteous feedback does get relayed back to Vstep and discussed at length there.

But repeating things that have been said previously won't cause anything to happen faster. Inability to use the search function does indicate that the poster's ability to conduct careful amd reasoned consideration may be impaired and that the poster's opinions may be less worthy of consideration.

Saying them in an aggressive or discourteous manner may have quite the opposite effect, of course.

[mvsmith]

My French is of a sparse and meager sort, but can we infer from Don’s last words that he is leaving us? Or, perhaps, Sancho Panza is leading him away.
In comparing FS to SS, he seems to be confusing a barber’s basin with the golden helmet of Mandrino.

[TerryRussell]

And is that confusion not the very nature of Don Quixote? 

[DonQuixoteDeLaManche]

Hmmm...

Well that sure provoked some interesting responses (not that it was intended to be provocative ~ they were just my initial thoughts).

Let me clear up some confusions in random order to the posted replies...

1. The Cervantes character Don Quixote de La Mancha is Spanish; whereas I am English, hence La Manche ~ French for the English Channel. It is just one nickname I have had since about 1972 (over 35 years!) and for reasons too complex to explain here and very different from the original Cervantes character. So, I assure you, my spelling is correct 

2. My original post outlined a whole bunch of constructive stuff I have started doing with ShipSim and I acknowledged it was early days. I further said I was not disappointed having purchased ShipSim and would be around a long while. (Incidently, "Au Revoir" means "Until I see you again" ~ Hardly, a cut and run statement!).

3. I acknowledged a lot of points when comparing FSim with ShipSim and stated it was an unfair comparison especially due to differing development histories and time. I further went on to criticise FSim for the very lengthy time (over ten years) it took MS (actually EA) to develop features asked for at the outset ~ I was making a reference to a historical fact. Consequently, I was actually criticising MS for not doing for FSim that which VSTEP have almost already achieved in ShipSim in a shorter development period ~ although there are other components I would like to see. Furthermore, I do not think that Mooring Buoys and Dolphins are much to ask for in terms of development static add-ons, as opposed to the plethora of Ships asked for by others and the development time that would take.

4. Similarly, a txt config file does not take rocket science to read in at programme launch for parameters which have to be set anyway; and the fact that Controllers are already programmable also makes a number of Controller setups a relatively easy development as well for the same reasons when actually within the game.

5. The very mixed nature of the points of view expressed above in response to my post actually proved my point that; Firstly, VSTEP's focus has evolved leaving them with a foot in both camps of Game Simulation and Training Simulator; and Secondly, there are Two types of user of the programme ~ These were my points entirely and you all have proved it with your responses.

6. No, I do not think VSTEP read the end-user forum posts! This is a Peer Forum where users exchange thoughts, ideas, suggestions, and generally help each other; precisely so that VSTEP do not get plagued by queries directly (they would never get any real work done!). Thoughts placed here should be as convivial as sharing a pint in the pub with friends without getting drunk, obnoxious or into fights. My post was intended to be a mixture of serious thoughts and comment presented politely with a touch of humour. If anyone read my post differently then I apologise for not being more specific in What I said, and How I said it.

7. I, myself have a foot in both camps as a user - I think it is apparent that I already know FSim very well; and I intend to get to know ShipSim equally well and I enjoy simulation games for fun. I also enjoy simulation games for the realism they can bring to that which I used to do but not any longer owing to enforced retirement through disability. In my earlier life in the Services, I have qualified as both a multi-engine aviation pilot and an ocean skipper along with other larger boat handling experience. I also have been sailing on the East Coast (and elsewhere in the world) since the age of 5 when I had my first dinghy, a Solent Scow. Consequently, I looked around for what I believed to be the best ship simulation game and chose ShipSim because Big Ships is an area for which I have no experience. ShipSim fulfils both components for me.

8. Incidentally, I did look at Virtual Sailor but chose ShipSim and I haven't regretted my choice.

9. Why anyone should get angry at anything I said is beyond me. A forum is precisely why it has that name. There is no exclusivity in a forum to 'old hands' although I acknowledge a certain privilege for their longevity, experience, and opinion. However, a forum is a means to consensus and if you stifle new blood and fresh thinking then you defeat the original purpose of the forum.

For anyone who was seriously offended, then I suggest you just ignore any of my posts in the future; because I have no intention of falling out with anyone, and I certainly intend being around in the future.

As they said in "The Village" ~ "Be seeing you" :-)

Don Quixote de La Manche (not the fictional one)

[Mad_Fred]

Hi there, Don Quixote de la Manche,

Let me just assure you about one thing, regarding your #6 remark..

There are developers that are active here and regularly come on the forum (daily basis) and read many end-user posts, specifically in the "Requests and Suggestions" board, and of course in the restricted areas on the forum, where we, the staff members, relay the important things that come up, to them. Indeed so that they do not have to spend too much time on it, and can rely on us to inform them of important things that way, while they focus on the development of the sim.

This is not just a peer forum, it is the official forum, not some fanforum like many other sims might have, where there are only end users. So VSTEP is also directly involved here from time to time, and even more so indirectly, by our staff efforts. Many changes in the sim over time, are directly taken from the forum, from good ideas and suggestions. Sensible ideas (even though VSTEP might have considered those themselves allready aswell) are always welcome, and listened to.

I'm not in the mood right now to get into some of the other stuff said in this topic, but thought I'd at least shed some light on your #6 remark here. 

But you have made some valid points. And as also mentioned, a lot of what you suggested, has indeed been taken into account at some point. In future versions, we'll see a lot more potential features of the simulator come to life, no doubt. The series is still young, we can only wait and see, what limitations are overcome in time...   

Regards,
Fred

[DonQuixoteDeLaManche]

Hi Fred,

...and Thank You for your information which is nice to know

I just wanted to add that having been accused of not bothering to read previous posts and regurgitating previous topics which seemed to really upset some people then I think that was a little unfair...

1. There are currently 156,928 Posts in 12,022 Topics by 36,116 Members in the forum ~ I am not going to read ALL of them, I would rather get on learning how to contribute scenarios for myself and others.

2. Incidentally, I did search the posts for Dolphins, Mooring Buoys, and Scrollable Charts; amongst many other searches and found nothing immediately applicable from the search results strings presented. I did not open every single post to read the whole post and consequently, I thought I was being original in my comments ~ Apparently not! For it appears from comments that these subjects have been raised before, but not that I found them although looking pretty diligently.

3. I did find in my searches many other things that have been raised before and I did not comment on those.

4. Similarly, I found many answers to questions I had and the forum search enabled me to resolve all sorts of things without asking the question again.

5. Furthermore, I have downloaded all sorts of brilliant information submitted by others here from their own experiences which has really jump started the Mission Development work I am doing ~ A Big Thank You to them as well.

6. Is this forum usually this hostile and/or dismissive of new users; or was everyone just having a bad day?

Don't worry, I haven't taken offence at anything ~ Life is just too short...

Kind regards,

Don (for short)

[TJK]

He Don
welcome to us

6. Is this forum usually this hostile and/or dismissive of new users; or was everyone just having a bad day?

No, this forum are a friendly and helpfully forum with good and nice peoples here, and as times go you will fin many good friends here
TJK/Tore

[Kapn Jonah]

Sorry to have been snappy, but i dont like it when people just come in and their very first post on the forum is basically a complaint post that has already been made.

Welcome to the forum though....

[TerryRussell]

Many members of this forum get very protective over a simulator that they enjoy so much.

When someone leaps in and seems to be attacking Ship Simulator, many people will jump up, pixelated fists a'ready. Right or wrong, it is understandable.