Ship Simulator
English forum => Development corner => Topic started by: AriesDW on March 28, 2008, 07:53:51
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This thread is in regards to the assembling of the "Ship Simulator Vessel Handling Guide". I, Dave, am willing to design and assemble the piece, however, I would like to get assistance gathering info regarding:
COVERED TOPICS:
-Horn communication (featured in another section)
-Radio/Comm etiquette (for TS usage)
-Port handling rules/regs
--Including speed, passaging regulations, col regs, docking procedures, etc.
-Open see handling rules/regs
-Basic naval terminology
-Tug/pushboat operating tips/regs
Any other suggestions?
I can design, assemble the piece, but again, I need patience, information, and any professional assistance/advice I can get. From there I will try to work on getting this piece placed somewhere on the forums or the game site.
*** ONLY POST RELEVANT TO THE TOPIC OF THREAD - - - UNRELATED TOPICS WILL BE DELETED - - - SERIOUS POSTS ONLY ***
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I'll give you all i know / understand as follows:
Ships must pass Port / Port unless both masters/captains agree that it is safer to pass starboard / starboard.
Port is the Left hand side of the ship (red)
Starboars is the Right hand side of the ship (green)
When using horn signals the other ship has to reply with the same signal to verify that he/she has heard and understands the signal.
When a tug is towing it is adviseable to keep clear at the LEAST of 500m infront and 300m either side...or else the tug gets very annoyed.. :D
full merchant shipping rules can be found here http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1996/Uksi_19963243_en_1.htm
Its not much but i hope it helps :)
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just adding to the above comment..... Will get together a list of links that will help you put together all the nessicary information. Have quite a bit of maritime experience and love the idea of what your proposing. Think you got the list spot on as well, would just add emergency procedures such as maday and pan-pan calls.
Just a couple of the top of mi head though.....
Watch out with the buoy system... while you are correct in saying Port markers are to the left and starboard to the right this changes when in N. America and it may be on the continent i have no idea about that. Trust me an englishman in Canada i have many stories to tell about mix ups with the buoys.
Green: Starboard, pass to the right side on your way into port or away from open water (upstream)
Red: Port, pass to left side " " " " " " " " " "
Note: This is the opposite in America and Canada e.g starboard to the right on your way inland or away from open water
The Horn signals: http://www.shipsim.com/ShipSimForum/index.php/topic,6174.25/topicseen.html are all correct and with a couple of good links in there.
Just another quick note with the tugs, practises vary from port to port, same with variations in radio communication in aircraft but there are commercial outlines and general procedures ones i think we should follow. As i say i will get together some ifo for you and post it on here for ya!!
Rgds
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Thank you for your encouragement, support, and information.
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Hello Dave, ;)
A good site (http://www.stormy.ca/marine/colregs/) with the International regulations for preventing collisions at sea (COLREG). Whistle (or horn?) signals from Rule 32 on.
Also interesting is the International Code of Signals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Code_of_Signals) wiki, giving also interesting links.
Of course, there are other rules than maritime, inland shipping in Europe has its own rules (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CEVNI), not quite the same as at sea. The wiki gives the link to this code in the external links.
Also of interest are the VTS (http://www.worldvtsguide.org/MenuPages/GermanyMenu/Brunsbuttel.html) regulations, or this Finnish pdf (http://www.fma.fi/toiminnot/meriliikenteenohjaus/saadokset/VTS%20Manual%202002.PDF).
Welcome back, :D
Regards,
Luc
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LUc!!! Awesome to see ya! Thanks for the welcome! I am happy to be here again and thanks for posting. Furthermore, thanks for your post and I hope to work closely with you on this project in the future.
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Just a quick question Dave.... Are we talkin about a print out guide with all the appropriate information or are we looking at an in-game information screen, like the info bar at the top of the screen??
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Just a quick question Dave.... Are we talkin about a print out guide with all the appropriate information or are we looking at an in-game information screen, like the info bar at the top of the screen??
putting it in game would be great!
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Just a quick question Dave.... Are we talkin about a print out guide with all the appropriate information or are we looking at an in-game information screen, like the info bar at the top of the screen??
For now it would be print out. To add it to the game would require a lot of work the devs do not have time for at the moment.
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For now it would be print out. To add it to the game would require a lot of work the devs do not have time for at the moment.
Yep fair shout, i was just wondering as to the type of info needed, diagrams, lengthy explanations or just the short facts!!
Almost got all of the sites your ever goin to need ;D , i will post them in a couple of days!
Rgds
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I'm sorry to disagree with the Admiral, but the normal convention is that buoys are passed to port or starboard if the vessel is proceeding with the main stream of flood. In other words, pass red buoys to port when going up the river, and green buoys to port when going down stream. In practice, in a river or confined space, the guideline is to keep to the starboard side of the channel.
Will the vessel handling guide include instructions on controls for wierd craft like the Isle of Wight ferries?
Robert
Extra Master (1965)
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Will the vessel handling guide include instructions on controls for wierd craft like the Isle of Wight ferries?
Robert
Extra Master (1965)
I would like it too . . . In an early conception it might be limited, I do not want the document to get TOO big and lengthy, but yes, I am looking at explaining different propulsion systems. And for my portfolio, I am likely to draw diagrams explaining each, so as many reference photos or diagrams that I can get my hands on, the better.
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I'm sorry to disagree with the Admiral, but the normal convention is that buoys are passed to port or starboard if the vessel is proceeding with the main stream of flood. In other words, pass red buoys to port when going up the river, and green buoys to port when going down stream. In practice, in a river or confined space, the guideline is to keep to the starboard side of the channel.
Just changed it..... unbeliveable!!!!
:o Still can't quite belive i did that!! :-\ just a tad embarrising!!!
Sorry
Rgds
Oh and thanks for the correction!!!
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Miracles still do happen. ;D ;D
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Ha they do indeed!!! just another question.... i was thinkin while gathering some info... different regulations an bouyage, tug regs etc apply to different tonnage of boat. So will you require info for both small craft and the giants like Ocean star??? And will you be wanting exact regs or breif, bitsize easy to ingest ;D info. If so do you want N.American exceptions to the UK regulations and guidelines???
Rgds
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This brings up a good point. I would not want lengthy bits, and I wish there was a way to make "general rules of thumb" that applied globally, so we did not need to make all sorts of exceptions or alt versions, etc. I think I am going to have to law down the law on this one and say we need to go with standards that either seem the most global or we will need to pick one nation and go from there . . . Thoughts?
And re: the tug thing, maybe little bits applying to various tonnage levels? That way I can see how I can build around that . . . Perhaps I can make tug sections for different ship sizes . . . We will see.
I am open to your suggestions.
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This brings up a good point. I would not want lengthy bits, and I wish there was a way to make "general rules of thumb" that applied globally, so we did not need to make all sorts of exceptions or alt versions, etc. I think I am going to have to law down the law on this one and say we need to go with standards that either seem the most global or we will need to pick one nation and go from there . . . Thoughts?
And re: the tug thing, maybe little bits applying to various tonnage levels? That way I can see how I can build around that . . . Perhaps I can make tug sections for different ship sizes . . . We will see.
I am open to your suggestions.
The essence of the Ship Simulator program is that it aims to simulate real-life. No one man can master everything involved and keep it up to date. The answer might be for you to delegate individual tasks to the real-life authorities concerned or the nearest thing to that available. I would expect some and hopefully many to be helpful in that the task would in their own interest in improving their work. You speak of 'a lengthy document'. Assuming you are putting it on a website you would provide a booklike contents page linking to subsection pages and so on. The ultimate links would be to external pages which are provided by authorities on the particular point.
For instance you might like to ask the designer of a tug to put up the 'Handling Guide' information in a format you provide. The you include a link to it under your list of tugs. Now you don't have the impossible task of keeping all the info up to date.
You mention the difficulty of varying standards. This could be handled in the same way as different vessels. Your contents has an item for the regulation type with links to pages for each of the countries which have differrent regulations.
I see your work as being a valuable source to the Ship Sim developers.
I suggest you set up the site immediately with the information already available as shown on this forum. Ship Sim might provide the web space as it will be so useful to them. OK so it will not be perfect immediately but it will be 'the best there is'!
BrianG
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Definatly agree. An easy to understand simple guide would be more effective than long winded explanations.
And also i think that a print out, "pocket size guide" would be the most effective soloution. Having it for download somewhere would be the best scenario. Mabye use your influence, Dave ;) to get the devs or whoever to get it on the shipsim site! I think your on to a winner here though. I know i'd love a little pocket guide with all this info in... mabye another cool one would be something they did for FS couple of years back in having small charts of all the ports. I know that there are low detail maps and charts available freely on the net....
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The essence of the Ship Simulator program is that it aims to simulate real-life. No one man can master everything involved and keep it up to date. The answer might be for you to delegate individual tasks to the real-life authorities concerned or the nearest thing to that available. I would expect some and hopefully many to be helpful in that the task would in their own interest in improving their work. You speak of 'a lengthy document'. Assuming you are putting it on a website you would provide a booklike contents page linking to subsection pages and so on. The ultimate links would be to external pages which are provided by authorities on the particular point.
For instance you might like to ask the designer of a tug to put up the 'Handling Guide' information in a format you provide. The you include a link to it under your list of tugs. Now you don't have the impossible task of keeping all the info up to date.
You mention the difficulty of varying standards. This could be handled in the same way as different vessels. Your contents has an item for the regulation type with links to pages for each of the countries which have differrent regulations.
I see your work as being a valuable source to the Ship Sim developers.
I suggest you set up the site immediately with the information already available as shown on this forum. Ship Sim might provide the web space as it will be so useful to them. OK so it will not be perfect immediately but it will be 'the best there is'!
BrianG
What I was intending was a product that you could print or view as a PDF. I do see value, however, in this web-based application you are speaking of. As sad as it would seem, I would like the initial intended project, the PDF guide, to be as universal as possible = to be used as a reference to aid novice and intermediate pilots as well as provide references for the more advanced. However, I will be giving MUCH more thought in regards to this in the coming days after I have gathered more info and have some more flexibility in my schedule.
Thank you for your input - I value it and will give it all a lot of thought.
For anyone wishing to work with me on this project may contact me via PM, through the forums, or through off forum forums means outlined in my profile.
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For specifications on bouys, lighthouses and other navigational aids check http://www.iala-aism.org/ (http://www.iala-aism.org/) under pulications.
I've attached an example wheelhouse poster from ICS, that shows the minimum manouvering information you need.
Rgds.
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For specifications on bouys, lighthouses and other navigational aids check http://www.iala-aism.org/ (http://www.iala-aism.org/) under pulications.
I've attached an example wheelhouse poster from ICS, that shows the minimum manouvering information you need.
Rgds.
Thank you very much, ibheba, and welcome to the forums! :D
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To the Admiral of the fleet.
The sides of a ship are determined as follows.
1. Always taken looking forward:-
Port side is to the left and Starboard side is to the right.
There is a reason for this and that is no matter what way the ship is heading the sides remain the same.
Also I was aleays told that when overtaking another vessel it must be that the vessel which is doing the overtaking must do it on the starboard side of the slower vessel.
1. When in a channel:-
Inbound the green bouys are kept to starboard and the red bouys to port
Outbound is the opposite, red bouys to the starboard and green to the port.
I am glad you weren't the flag of FOCAS when I served.
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It seems that you can't download anything from IALA without a fee! So here are the basics on Lateral Marks from the IALA-system
There are two international Buoyage Regions - A and B - where lateral marks differ
- Region A
- Port-hand Marks are red with cylindrical topmarks (if any). Lights are red and have any rythm exept Fl(2+1)R
- Starboard-hand Marks are green with conical topmarks (if any). Lights are green and have any rythm exept Fl(2+1)G
- Region B
- Port-hand Marks are green with cylindrical topmarks (if any). Lights are green and have any rythm exept Fl(2+1)G
- Starboard-hand Marks are red with conical topmarks (if anny). Lights are red and have any rythm exept Fl(2+1)R
Direction of Buoyage
The direction of buoyage is that taken when approaching a harbour from seaward or, along coasts, the direction determined by buoyage authorties, normally clockwise around land masses.
Region B System is in force in North and South American waters and in the Southeast Asian waters. Region A is in force in the rest of the world.
This means that when you approach Rotterdam from the Northsea you will have green buoys on your starboard side. On the other hand when you approach New York from the Atlantic ocean you will have red buoys on your starboard side.
I hope this will clear things up.
Rgds.
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I was wrong from here http://www.iala-aism.org/web/pages/publications/cadrepubli.html (http://www.iala-aism.org/web/pages/publications/cadrepubli.html) you can obtain a copy of IALA Maritime Buoyage System.
Rgds
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Hello,
At sea, overtaking means that the overtaking vessel comes from the "rear" of the overtaken, more than 22.5° from the beam of the overtaken, and there is no particular side imposed.
But in narrow channels, ships must follow Rule 9:
Rule 9
Narrow channels
(a) A vessel proceeding along the course of a narrow channel or fairway shall keep as near to the outer limit of the channel or fairway which lies on her starboard side as is safe and practicable.
which means that an overtaking ship having the same draught will need to do it on the port side of the overtaken.
If the slower ship is more to the middle of the channel (for one or another reason), it is possible to overtake indeed on the starboard side, using the Rule 34 signals for overtaking (--. on your stbd side , and --.. on your port).
In the European inland waters, the rule is
Article 6.10 - Overtaking
1. As a general rule, the overtaking vessel shall pass to port of the vessel being overtaken.
Where the channel is unquestionably wide enough, the overtaking vessel may also overtake to
starboard of the vessel being overtaken
Regards,
Luc
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To the Admiral of the fleet.
I am glad you weren't the flag of FOCAS when I served.
Comment inappropriate . . . You have been warned.
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Radio/Comm
This teaching program might prove usefull, it even has a small dictionary including some maritime terms.
http://mareng.utu.fi/index.html (http://mareng.utu.fi/index.html)
These publications(hardcopy) deals with some of the legal/technical matter but include giudelines for the use of radio:
- ITU Radio Regulation, ISBN 9261106870 http://www.itu.int/publications/default.aspx (http://www.itu.int/publications/default.aspx)
- GMDSS Handbook, 2007 Edition, ISBN 9789280142334
- Handbook for Marine Radio Communication, ISBN 9781843113683
Standard Marine Communication Phrases, ISBN 9280151371, standardizes the language in communication for navigation at sea and on board vessels.
Ship handling
This book is perhaps be a little old but the basics still applies.
The Theory and Practice of Seamanship, ISBN 0415142008
A preview can be found here
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=fo5Cd9FsqucC&printsec=titlepage&dq=practical+ship+handling&source=gbs_toc_s&cad=1#PPP1,M1 (http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=fo5Cd9FsqucC&printsec=titlepage&dq=practical+ship+handling&source=gbs_toc_s&cad=1#PPP1,M1)
Some other recomended books(hardcopy) that covers ship handling are:
- The Nautical Institute
- Tug Use Offshore - in Bays and Rivers, ISBN 1870077741
- Handling of Offshore Supply Vessels
- Pilotage and Shiphandling, ISBN 1870077075
- Manoeuvr.Single Screw Vessels Fitted w.Cont.Pitch, ISBN 1870077210
- Bow Tug Operations, ISBN 1870077733
- Handling Ships in Ice, ISBN 1870077849
- Cornell Maritime Press Inc.
- Shiphandling for the Mariner, ISBN 0870334646
- Brown, Son & Ferguson, Ltd.
- Practical Ship Handling, ISBN 081746225
I know they are not cheap but someone out there might provide you with some kind of extract of relevant paragraphs/chapters. I might be able to provide an extract of some of my books but they are all in danish, translating into english could be a lengthy process.
Rgds.
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Radio/Comm
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, translating into English could be a lengthy process.
Rgds. Ariesdw
A rough translation of text can be obtained using one of the many free translators available on the Internet. To find these do a web search using the word 'translation'. Basically you paste in the original and get back the translation.BrianG
Edit:Typo corrected BrianG
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The original topic lists the main things to be covered and asks for any other suggestions. As a novice with regard to ships I do not know what the limitations are of the various controls for each ship. For example some ships cannot reverse I think. The Hovercraft air pressure has to be considered when operating other controls but how. When a control is a lever directing the vessel to left or right I cannot see which way to move the lever to suit the direction required. Where there is one thruster it is not clear if it is front or rear or just where it is.
Is this information already available on the site? If not perhaps it could be included in this guide. BriabG
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As it has been a while I was just wondering if there was a status on the guide? Any idea when it will become available? I know it is a long and very intensive project that needs to be done with great care so in no way complaining or want it done fast,, just wondering.
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Thank you very much for your interest and the continued support. While prepping for finals and recovering from a sinus infection (EWWWWWW) which has had me in the hospital, progress has been slow but it has been in development. As I get further along I will see if VStep will allow me to release samples of the guide.
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Thank you very much for your interest and the continued support. While prepping for finals and recovering from a sinus infection (EWWWWWW) which has had me in the hospital, progress has been slow but it has been in development. As I get further along I will see if VStep will allow me to release samples of the guide.
Hi Aries,
Reading through the thread the information wanted already falls into the categories:-
- all vessels in real life
- particular vessels in real life
- Location (This might mean country. It might mean location within a country if the rules change within a particular country. In SS2008 program terms it might mean 'Environment'.)
If separate collections of data were made it would be hard to keep them consistent. The information would seem best collected in spreadsheet or database form so that the data need be entered only once. The data to include fields for Yes/no as to whether it felt into each category. From this database the information could be obtained in any one category. If say the info on the Aries Rescue Vessel was required a sort of the spreadsheet on Vessel type would bring it all together.
To start off I suggest that this forum be used to collect the data. Members submit the data to this topic then it is edited and included in a spreadsheet or database to which a link is provided in a sticky entry at the top of this topic. Form of entry top be:-
- Real Life (Y/N)
- SS2006 (Y/N)
- SS2008 (Y/N)
- All vessels Y/N
- Vessel Type (Selected from a 'dropdown' list if it is an SS2006/8 vessel to ensure consistency.)
- All locations (Y/N)
- Particular country name selected from a 'dropdown' list (if not 'All locations)
- Particular location/SS environment (If varies within classifications already made. SS environments to be selected from a 'dropdown' list.)
- Source: It is important to state the source as if there are conflicts this makes it easier to resolve them.
- Text.
The information already provided in this topic could be used to test the idea. Hopefully 'Cut and Paste' will reduce the work if you adopt any of these ideas. An advantage is that you can start with a little data to pilot your system. Another is that you do not have to be personally responsible for all the data, an impossible task. BrianG
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I am still here . . . Working on this project while attending to real life jobs . . . So do not loose hope! I am very excited and cannot wait to present this soon!
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Never lost hope, just figured you were busy and this is an important project that needs time and care to complete :) Thanks again for doing it!
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horn signals that are very relevant:
7 short blasts and 1 long blast-abandon ship
3 long blasts-man overboard
3 short blasts-engines being reversed
3 long 1 short -leaving or arriving at a port
5 long and 1 short blast-dangerous activity, do not interfere!
2 long 3 short blasts-a way of signaling to another vessel when passing
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Hello Kapn Jonah,
Some of the signals you mention (except for man overboard and reverse) seem to be not too common. Are they specific to Canadian inland waterways or Great Lakes perhaps?
Regards,
Luc
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well actually they are used by most ferry lines i know of such as BC ferries (pacific ocean) and Marine Atlantic (atlantic ocean). I have also seen them used by Cunard Line a few times. ;D
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i know that the abandon ship signal is quite common. I have heard it during life boat drills on Carnival ships, disney ships, and princess ships.
I may be weong in saying 2 long 3 short blasts for passing another vessel, i don't know if you've ever heard of "the 2 toot salute" used by QM2 very often, which is 2 long blasts fcrom each vessel.
the one about dangerous activity i heard about in another topic
see it here:
http://www.shipsim.com/ShipSimForum/index.php/topic,6174.new.html#new
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there is also some signals used by bc ferries at this link:
http://www.bcferries.com/about/corporate/safety_first/safety_coastal_class.html
just scrol down to the "EMERGENCY SIGNALS" section and read
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Hello Kapn Jonah,
You can find the sound signals, for inland US and international waterways (COLREGS) in this nice pdf of the USCG (http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/mwv_files/NR_Files/navrules.pdf), from p. 115 on, and I can imagine the rules are the same in Canada.
The sound signals for the inland European waterways can be found in the pdf CEVNI code (http://www.unece.org/trans/doc/finaldocs/sc3/TRANS-SC3-115r2e.pdf) and are quite similar, perhaps somewhat more numerous.
Surely, the cruise ships can send whatever signal they wish, as long as they understand each other and follow the rules, but the sound signals you mention are particular and not related to seamanship.
Two prolonged blasts (M) mean: "My vessel is stopped and making no way through the water", as well as three mean "Man overboard" indeed. Also the one-letter signal (C) of the International Code of Signals (http://www.freedownloadscenter.com/Information_Management/Information_Reference_Databases/Interco___International_Code_of_Signals.html) INTERCO may be used if needed (means Yes).
Regards,
Luc
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did you have a look at any of my links that where posted?
those are the signals that we are familiar with in canada, and i use them in the ship sim multiplayer, most people know what i'm getting at with these signals
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Indeed, and I knew the topic "horn signals". I posted while you sent the other reference, to BC Ferries, and also searched the Ministry of Transport Database for the signals without references.
horn signals that are very relevant:
7 short blasts and 1 long blast-abandon ship
3 long blasts-man overboard
3 short blasts-engines being reversed
3 long 1 short -leaving or arriving at a port
5 long and 1 short blast-dangerous activity, do not interfere!
2 long 3 short blasts-a way of signaling to another vessel when passing
- The "abandon ship" sound signal is surely specific to some Canadian companies -and probably other too- but is no part of IMO or other official regulations I could refer to.
- "O" man overboard is indeed an INTERCO signal,
- the three short blasts indeed are part of the COLREGS
- 3 prolonged, 1 short is surely also specific
- 5 long 1 short is specific
- 2 long 3 short as well
Regards,
Luc
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- The "abandon ship" sound signal is surely specific to some Canadian companies -and probably other too- but is no part of IMO or other official regulations I could refer to.
According to SOLAS chapter III, regulation 6.4.2 all SOLAS ships, that is in this context all passenger ships and cargo ships over 300GT, shall have "...a general emergency alarm system complying with the requirements of paragraph 7.2.1 of" the International Life-Saving Appliance (LSA) Code adopted by the Maritime Safety Committee of IMO by resolution MSC.48(66) that again state that "the general emergency alarm system shall be capable of sounding the general emergency alarm signal consisting of seven or more short blasts followed by one long blast on the ship's whistle or siren and additionally on an electrically operated bell or klaxon or other equivalent warning system".
Rgds,
Ib