Ship Simulator
English forum => Small talk => Topic started by: Subwolf on October 13, 2011, 17:46:40
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A terrible disaster for New Zealand about to happen :(
Ship has 1700 tons of bunker fuel, and attempts to pump it out have failed.
The Fillipino captain has been arrested for bad seamanship, ran the ship aground.
This is one major vessel, something like Vermaas in the game.
That captain can't feel good about himself, he'll have a lot of questions to answer.
(http://static.vg.no/uploaded/image/bilderigg/2011/10/13/1318497334028_888.jpg)
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"it is my first day at work" Homer Simpson ;D :doh:
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OK, not sure if this is just down to translation, but he was not arrested for "bad seamanship" he was arrested for "operating a vessel in a manner causing unnecessary danger or risk". I know this sounds like splitting hairs, but there is a difference and until the facts are known about the exact circumstances under which she grounded I think it is unfair to discuss whether or not the captain is feeling good about himself.
It seems to be an automatic reaction to arrest the captain of any ship which is involved in any incident these days, I would love to see how the environmental campaigners who have forced the criminalisation of seafarers would cope if the ships weren't there bringing them everything from paper to print their propaganda to ridiculous giant wind turbines that they seem to be so fond of.
If governments really want to tackle the problems of ships being operated in a manner causing unnecessary danger or risk then they need to address the conditions under which seafarers work rather than waiting until it all goes wrong and then arresting someone, in most modern countries lorry drivers would not be allowed to work for half the time that watch-keeping officers on the bridge of a ship are expected to.
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I remember an essay I read a long time ago, written by a PhD academic questioning the ethics of the Chernobyl nuclear plant disaster. One of the issues studied in that essay was the increase of the demand in energy relative to the industrial development, relative to the potential hazard of an accident.
So, in 1910, the biggest industrial accident could cause, let's say, 10,000 acres of land to become uninhabitable. Accordingly, in 1940 an equivalent accident could cause 100,000 acres to become uninhabitable, in 1985 the area would increase to over 500,000 acres, in 2011 in a few million acres. The point is that I wouldn't moor my Vermaas on the Dai Ichi dock for a few thousand years from now, Plutonium sucks.
Apart from those major industrial accidents there are the more moderate ones which wouldn't probably cause the land to become totally uninhabitable, although they would very likely spread misery, and economic devastation to the loveliest landscapes of the globe.
Sometimes I stand on the deck of my Vermaas, playing squash table tennis and thinking that this planet cant really stand much more than 7 billion carnivore homos on its surface. And then I keep on playing squash.
60% of the agricultural commodities produced annually are consumed by livestock meant to be slaughtered and then chewed. Calculate for yourself the energy demand that this production requires and then, easily, measure your personal "reason coefficient" as a homo. And then I sail my sweet Vermaas to the next port of call.
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I remember an essay I read a long time ago, written by a PhD academic questioning the ethics of the Chernobyl nuclear plant disaster. One of the issues studied in that essay was the increase of the demand in energy relative to the industrial development, relative to the potential hazard of an accident.
So, in 1910, the biggest industrial accident could cause, let's say, 10,000 acres of land inhabitable. Accordingly, in 1940 an equivalent accident could cause 100,000 acres to become inhabitable, in 1985 the area would increase to over 500,000 acres, in 2011 in a few million acres. The point is that I wouldn't moor my Vermaas on the Dai Ichi dock for a few thousand years from now, Plutonium sucks.
Apart from those major industrial accidents there are the more moderate ones which wouldn't probably cause the land to become totally inhabitable, although they would very likely spread misery, and economic devastation to the loveliest landscapes of the globe.
Sometimes I stand on the deck of my Vermaas, playing squash table tennis and thinking that this planet cant really stand much more than 7 billion carnivore homos on its surface. And then I keep on playing squash.
60% of the agricultural commodities produced annually are consumed by livestock meant to be slaughtered and then chewed. Calculate for yourself the energy demand that this production requires and then, easily, measure your personal "reason coefficient" as a homo. And then I sail my sweet Vermaas to the next port of call.
okay. squash is really fun.
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It seems to be an automatic reaction to arrest the captain of any ship which is involved in any incident these days, I would love to see how the environmental campaigners who have forced the criminalisation of seafarers would cope if the ships weren't there bringing them everything from paper to print their propaganda to ridiculous giant wind turbines that they seem to be so fond of.
Clanky ..... as a motley group of seafarers I wonder if our voices will ever be heard. What you have said is absolutely right. It does not occur to most ashore that a whole lot of things that surround them are because ships have transported them and it arrives at their doorstep.
I know it will never happen .... but if there is ever a Global Maritime Strike, one can imagine the impact it will have on the world. Look at a scenario ....... container ships not willing to berth or sail out ..... oil tankers and chemical tankers refusing to load .... car carriers fully loaded and anchored .....
It's about time something is done about unjustified criminalisation of seafarers and being 'sitting ducks' for pirates
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Maan, this is really annoying because everyone is handling the situation poorly and that ship won't last much longer. By the looks of it it's tipping over to one side, the containers are putting on more strain and they are falling off. Then the sea is doing it's bit, they are just taking pictures and videos, God this is soo pathethic it's hard to watch. 45000 tons lost just like that. Also this one of the people I knew from High school, check out the photo he posted on his social networking account, not sure if it's real photo, worth looking into.
Third
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Then the sea is doing it's bit, they are just taking pictures and videos
I also would have taken lots of pictures of that if I were there in a boat. Who doesn't? :P
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i`m almost sure that it will break in 2 pieces or it will capsize :(
if you see the pictures on the news you can see a big crack
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Clanky, every industry has its problems like that- even road transport. Worldwide governments comprised of numb nuts who know only what their marxist text books tell them. They poke their noses into industry from their cushy little office and interfere.
Instead of enforcing existing rules they seem to prefer making lots of new rules- so you spend all your time dealing with pointless piffle whilst the really important stuff is not given the same care it needs.
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The captain wouldn't be arrested if there was a technical malfunction, bad weather or for some reason nothing he could do to avoid running aground. NZ police called it bad seamanship, obviously his navigation failed.
They have many systems to help with safe navigation. But this is what happens when they hire people who shouldn't be on that bridge in the first place. There should be an effective international approval system to make sure they are qualified. In many Asian countries you can get a job as a captain on a cargo vessel without the correct background, only to keep costs down.
I'm not even sure if the owner of the Rena can continue business after this. The ship is lost, so is the cargo. Then the environmental damage, there are already dead birds, fish and so on. The result of a low cost operation ::)
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@ Subwolf
As long as cheap labour is available, there are many shipowners who will opt for them. It is said that the major chunk of expenses for running a ship is the wages of its officers and crew.
Look at U.S.A ..... even they have outsourced their customer care to Asian countries.
It is a form of exploitation and the risks are always there ....... and sometimes very costly.
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"Deliberate course sent Rena to reef"..
http://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/rena-crisis/5789174/Deliberate-course-sent-Rena-to-reef
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That's a nasty crack!
(http://static2.stuff.co.nz/1318390304/115/5775115_600x400.jpg)
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WOW :o
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yikes.
how on earth did that get there? ???
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yikes.
how on earth did that get there? ???
Got stuck on a reef by an idiotic captain. ::)
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i bet he was like, "derrp, wuts that lite blu ting over ther?" *CCRRUUUUUNNNNNCCCHHHH!!* :doh:
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I bet we'll hear something like he was under pressure by the shipowner to reach port in time. Sounds like it, since he pushed the ship to max speed of 18 knots, ignoring the charts and took a shortcut. Why the #"!¤ go all the way around when this course is much faster? Because now there's a reef straight ahead..
In other words, this guy must be stripped of his stripes, and don't hire Fillipino captains ;)
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I hate to speculate that similar accidents to "Rena's assasination" may be related to insurance fraud. What's handier for a marine enterprise than to assign the job to a captain who will claim dumb at the court. After all, has only a single pilot been awake before the the incident?
" - Captain we're heading against reef, can't you see?
- shut up jerk, I know my job better than you"
There's a glut of newly built cargo vessels which spend months anchored at ports in a time where there's a certainty of a global economic slowdown. Or is it just my faulty understanding to blame?
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In other words, this guy must be stripped of his stripes, and don't hire Fillipino captains ;)
So all Filipino Captains are incompetent are they?
You know them ALL do you?
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The captain wouldn't be arrested if there was a technical malfunction, bad weather or for some reason nothing he could do to avoid running aground. NZ police called it bad seamanship, obviously his navigation failed.
Your knowledge of maritime law is impressive, may I ask where you studied?
They have many systems to help with safe navigation. But this is what happens when they hire people who shouldn't be on that bridge in the first place. There should be an effective international approval system to make sure they are qualified.
It's called STCW95
In many Asian countries you can get a job as a captain on a cargo vessel without the correct background, only to keep costs down.
The closest thing to what I want to say without getting banned is that this is utter nonsense and that you should verify your facts better before posting garbage like this.
I'm not even sure if the owner of the Rena can continue business after this. The ship is lost, so is the cargo. Then the environmental damage, there are already dead birds, fish and so on. The result of a low cost operation ::)
You obviously have an in depth knowledge of the operation of the vessel and its costs, I assume you have seen the budget figures?
Got stuck on a reef by an idiotic captain. ::)
And what exactly qualifies you to judge the competence of a ship's captain, I assume there is a number of completed missions in SSE after which you have enough knowledge to be able to second guess professional seafarers?
i bet he was like, "derrp, wuts that lite blu ting over ther?" *CCRRUUUUUNNNNNCCCHHHH!!* :doh:
No, I would bet that he could actually spell and form a sentence.
In other words, this guy must be stripped of his stripes, and don't hire Fillipino captains ;)
So which countries, in your experience, produce good captains then?
I hate to speculate
Don't then
that similar accidents to "Rena's assasination" may be related to insurance fraud. What's handier for a marine enterprise than to assign the job to a captain who will claim dumb at the court. After all, has only a single pilot been awake before the the incident?
" - Captain we're heading against reef, can't you see?
- shut up jerk, I know my job better than you"
There's a glut of newly built cargo vessels which spend months anchored at ports in a time where there's a certainty of a global economic slowdown. Or is it just my faulty understanding to blame?
Yes, it is your faulty understanding.
The only person on this forum (as far as I am aware) who is qualified to comment on the competency of a ship's captain is Traddles, you will notice that he has not done so, I would suggest that those who have absolutely no idea what they are talking about follow suit and keep quiet.
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Well said, Clanky.
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Hi Clanky
From me :2thumbs:
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Hi Clanky, at my age I need to save my breath for something useful. :doh: Joining in to this kind of rubbish is quite pointless. Thanks for the kind word though, it's nice to know I am not completely ignored. :evil:
Traddles.
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Clanky ..... all your comments addressed to them should certainly silence those "armchair captains and navigators" :doh:
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You find this sort of thing all over the place. I was looking (out of boredom) on youtube at aicraft and the comments from people "ooohhh he landed that with too much flap extended" and so on- by people that probably have only ever played msfs- and then try and argue it out with professionals.
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Well I don't see many professionals in this thread. I see someone trying to defend a captain who has commited a crime and broken basic rules at sea. I don't get it..
But my thoughts were right, according to investigators the Rena was indeed running behind schedule, in an effort to make up time they altered course and headed towards a coral reef marked on all charts. If they didn't make it in time they would have to wait for the next tide to reach port. And that means extra costs for the company..
Both the captain and his navigation officer was arrested, I've never heard of officers being arrested after every accident. There is always a reason, and this incident was caused by incompetent and low quality officers. I believe there are many of them around Asian waters, I'd like to see them off these ships.
Simos31, you raise an interesting question about insurance fraud. The Rena is owned by the Greek company Costamare Inc, and we know about the financial crisis going on in that country. Doesn't sound like that's the case here though, but it does add up. Investigation will tell.
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Well I don't see many professionals in this thread. I see someone trying to defend a captain who has commited a crime and broken basic rules at sea. I don't get it..
But my thoughts were right, according to investigators the Rena was indeed running behind schedule, in an effort to make up time they altered course and headed towards a coral reef marked on all charts. If they didn't make it in time they would have to wait for the next tide to reach port. And that means extra costs for the company..
Both the captain and his navigation officer was arrested, I've never heard of officers being arrested after every accident. There is always a reason, and this incident was caused by incompetent and low quality officers. I believe there are many of them around Asian waters, I'd like to see them off these ships.
Simos31, you raise an interesting question about insurance fraud. The Rena is owned by the Greek company Costamare Inc, and we know about the financial crisis going on in that country. Doesn't sound like that's the case here though, but it does add up. Investigation will tell.
You are insans, subwolf. Whether or not there are many maritime professionals on this thread is irrelevant- YOU ARE NOT ONE OF THEM!
No official statements have been released that have resulted in charges being brought against any officers. So stop talking rollocks.
Of course they were arrested as there MIGHT be charges brought or there might not be. It is a standard procedure in any accident or incident to prevent them leaving the Country just in case charges are brought.
You are not at all qualified to judge the competency of these officers at all and such comments from you display a total arrogance and belief in your investigative abilities that go far beyond your own actual experiences. You believe this, that or the next thing> I believe in elvis being alive but that doesn't make it so. So stop talking total utter bilge.
As for your reasoning that because the Greek economy is in a mess that this is obviously an insurance fraud is so ridiculously tenious that it is bordering contemptable.
Yes, finally you are right on something. INVESTIGATION WILL TELL.
And I don't recall hearing your name being announced by the NZ gov in connection with their marine investigation branch.
Idiot.
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Incidentally, he has commited no crime. A person is innocent until found guilty by a panel of professionals and following a jury of his peers.
Double damned idiot.
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I'll ignore your language, Stuart2007. I'll leave that to the moderators.
All the reports coming from the investigation indicates that very bad seamanship is the cause of this incident. And I'm not going to change my opinion about it.
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Perhaps if everyone is prepared to wait until a full investigation has been carried out and a final legal judgement been made it would be sensible to have opinions, but to keep them quiet until after the judgement is made. In a civilised world it is usual to presume innocence until such time as guilt is proven. Now Somali pirating is a different matter, but that does not mean that ALL Somalis are pirates does it?
Traddles.
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I'll ignore your language, Stuart2007. I'll leave that to the moderators.
All the reports coming from the investigation indicates that very bad seamanship is the cause of this incident. And I'm not going to change my opinion about it.
OPINION. THe operative word. Opinions are like anal passages- everyone has one and it is often full of...
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OPINION. THe operative word. Opinions are like anal passages- everyone has one and it is often full of...
You can start by shoving a cork up yours, because we all know this crew screwed up their navigation, or should we say the lack of it..
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You can start by shoving a cork up yours, because we all know this crew screwed up their navigation, or should we say the lack of it..
Considering your self professed knowledge on this it is surprising that the worlds maritime accident investigation departments aren't all queueing up to seek your expert forensic guidance.
I think part of your problem is you don't like people from hotter climates being in command of vessels that should be in the hands of Europeans- in your opinion.
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Well I don't see many professionals in this thread.
At least 3 that I am aware of have commented on the thread and none of those have felt the need to pass judgement on the actions of the captain
I see someone trying to defend a captain who has commited a crime and broken basic rules at sea. I don't get it..
No-one is trying to defend anyone, all that people are saying is that it is ridiculous for those with no knowledge of the events other than what they have read in the media and no knowledge of what it means to command a ship to believe that they have the right to cast judgements before any official inquiry comes to its conclusions.
But my thoughts were right, according to investigators the Rena was indeed running behind schedule, in an effort to make up time they altered course and headed towards a coral reef marked on all charts. If they didn't make it in time they would have to wait for the next tide to reach port. And that means extra costs for the company..
Both the captain and his navigation officer was arrested, I've never heard of officers being arrested after every accident. There is always a reason, and this incident was caused by incompetent and low quality officers. I believe there are many of them around Asian waters, I'd like to see them off these ships.
Unfortunately it is almost standard practice to arrest the ship's captain after any incident where pollution is caused these days. As for incompetent and low quality officers what qualifications do you have that give you the ability to determine the competence of a ships officer?
Simos31, you raise an interesting question about insurance fraud. The Rena is owned by the Greek company Costamare Inc, and we know about the financial crisis going on in that country. Doesn't sound like that's the case here though, but it does add up. Investigation will tell.
And until it does you would be better keeping your opinions to yourself.
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Personally I feel that 3 things could have caused the little "mishap" (even though its a rather big mishap).
The first is mechanical faliure, which seems unlikely as the Rena was reportedly making 17kts at the time of grounding/floudering. weither the steering gear decided it wanted a rest at the time of the inicident is unknown, although that again is unlikely.
Which leaves human error or weather. being as the weather was calm then human error is the most likely cause, However, I doubt the captain was at fault, as he *probobly* wasn't at the wheel during the incident. Thats my peice said,
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However, I doubt the captain was at fault, as he *probobly* wasn't at the wheel during the incident.
On any ship the Captain is NEVER at the wheel. The wheel (or the helm) is operated by a crew member called the helmsman who is also an Able Bodied Seaman (better known as AB on ships). He operates the wheel as per the Captain's or the Navigating Officer's orders. It's not like an aircraft where the pilot actually controls the wheel (or the yoke).
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On any ship the Captain is NEVER at the wheel. The wheel (or the helm) is operated by a crew member called the helmsman who is also an Able Bodied Seaman (better known as AB on ships). He operates the wheel as per the Captain's or the Navigating Officer's orders. It's not like an aircraft where the pilot actually controls the wheel (or the yoke).
Not strictly true, fishing boats and smaller island vessels will often have the skipper at the wheel, but thats me nit picking :doh: But in short its not All the Cpt's fault.
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Danny ..... we're talking "container ships" :D
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Danny ..... we're talking "container ships" :D
I know :D
But out of question, would the CPT take the wheel if the vessel was in danger, IE was about to flounder? or would the helmsman or OOW stay at the wheel?
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But out of question, would the CPT take the wheel if the vessel was in danger, IE was about to flounder? or would the helmsman or OOW stay at the wheel?
The captain would still not take the wheel. If a helmsman is found inefficient he would normally be replaced by another one. Even the OOW will not be given the wheel unless of course the situation is so urgent and a replacement would take time to arrive. Today there is a lot of emphasis on what is called "Bridge Team Management". There are guidelines as to how many persons are required on the bridge based on the scenario / traffic conditions. Responsibilities are specified for each member of the Team and "taking over the helm" is never allotted to the captain. A captain handling the wheel will amount to him losing command / control of the grave situation and whatever he is monitoring.
Traditionally, there are only three helmsmen on a ship. An inexperienced or an inefficient helmsman increases the work load on the other two helmsmen and it can be quite tiresome especially if the entire stretch down a river is on hand steering, eg. the Mississippi River (from Baton Rouge to the Gulf of Mexico). Harbour / River / Canal pilots are know to get very angry if they are confronted by an inefficient helmsman and they straight away demand a replacement. A good and experienced helmsman is an integral part of the Bridge Team.
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No-one is trying to defend anyone, all that people are saying is that it is ridiculous for those with no knowledge of the events other than what they have read in the media and no knowledge of what it means to command a ship to believe that they have the right to cast judgements before any official inquiry comes to its conclusions.
You shouldn't make a statement like that when you have no idea of who you are talking to. It's only natural that an incident like this one will be discussed on maritime forums. I'm convinced that the master of this vessel has broken all basic rules at sea, obviously you're not. Fine, that's your opinion.
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I'm not one to get involved here, but this is one good thread!
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Regarding Captains on the bridge, I thought I have seen the Captain of the QM2 berthing the vessel himself?
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subwolf, Clanky is only a chief engineer. I mean, what the hell could someone who has risen through the ranks of his department after a clearly successful career possibly know about running a ship.
It isn't as if the senior officers of each department have to know the basics of other departments in case of emergency or anything.
Which is sarcasm, btw.
TFM, ferry captains or their chief officer will berth the ship with their own hands on the controls.
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You shouldn't make a statement like that when you have no idea of who you are talking to. It's only natural that an incident like this one will be discussed on maritime forums. I'm convinced that the master of this vessel has broken all basic rules at sea, obviously you're not. Fine, that's your opinion.
Yes, it's on;ly natural that it will be discussed, however, their is no need for some of the slanderous and racist comments which have been posted regarding this particular captain's ability or the ability of Asian captains in general.
I have never stated my opinion, please do not put words into my mouth, the only thing that I have stated quite clearly is that I do not feel that those with no knowledge of what it means to command a ship should not be second guessing the actions of someone when they don't know the circumstances. You say that I should not assume that you have no knowledge of what it means to command a ship, by all means share your experience and qualifications and then I might be prepared to take your opinion seriously.
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A point to bear in mind regarding responsibility. The Master of ANY ship bears the ultimate responsibility for anything which happens to his ship. It matters not who was at the wheel or if the ship is under control of auto pilot, or who is on the bridge, or if the Master is in the saloon having his dinner. The Master is ALWAYS responsilble, that comes with the job, and really is exactly what he is paid for. This is a fact of seagoing life.
Traddles.
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Angus,
There is a similar issue in road transport. If one of my drivers commits an offence then I am automatically vicariously liable and technically joint defendant for the offence.
In practice though as long as I have acted correctly in training and enforcement of instructions and rules, I will generally be free from culpability even if taking full responsibility.
I guess it is similar for the Captain of a ship. Always responsible but if they have exercised their duty correctly then they are not culpable.
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@ Angus / @ Stuart
Responsibility comes with a price and sometime by most unfair means.
There was this incident in South Korean waters where unfair criminalisation really crossed limits. A floating crane was being towed out a port by a tug and the sea was quite choppy. The towline parted and the crane being adrift collided with a loaded single hull tanker at anchor and punctured her shipside. This resulted in crude oil escaping from the tanker and did result in a major pollution incident. Authorities promptly arrested the Master and the Chief Officer of the tanker and there were behind bars for over two years. This if you see was not the fault of the Captain of the tanker in any way.
On another maritime forum that I visit, I remember a post. It was about an airline pilot who quite 'gallantly' landed his distressed aircraft on the Hudson River and saved the lives of all the passengers on board. The pilot was hailed as a hero and even decorated. The scene was transferred to a "what if" situation with a merchant ship captain doing something similar ........ he chose to run the ship aground on a beach as if he had not, the ship would have sunk and resulted in the loss of lives of all the crew on board. In all probability he would have been arrested for damaging a beach / irresponsibility / incompetence / and what have you ! This captain would never have been hailed as a 'hero'
Yes, the weight of "four stripes & a diamond" is pretty heavy !
vin_sun
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Clanky, I'm a navigator myself, 2nd officer. A good reason to react against the actions of this crew. I'm certainly not a racist, have only positive remarks about Asian deckhands. I'm talking about two groups of officers, one holding a good licence, the other a questionable one...in my opinion.
Now return to your engine room, please.
Hmm, there's no sarcasm smiley around here..
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I've just read that the Cpt was having a birthday party, and so left the 1st officer in command of the bridge.
The vessel was running 15 minutes late to meet the pilot vessel in Tauranga, and the First Officer took a short cut to save time, and ran aground with the new course.