Ship Simulator

English forum => Small talk => Topic started by: J3nsen on August 12, 2007, 23:50:06

Title: Some one seen the program on Discovery!??
Post by: J3nsen on August 12, 2007, 23:50:06: Some one seen the program on Discovery there ESTONIA sink!!?? I watched that now! Remote videotapes of the wreck showed that the locks on the bow door had failed and that the door had separated from the rest of the vessel.

The Estonia disaster occurred on September 28, 1994 at about 00:55 to 01:50 (UTC+2) en route from Tallinn, Estonia to Stockholm, Sweden carrying 989 passengers and crew.

M/S Estonia was expected to arrive in Stockholm at about 09:30. According to the Final disaster report The weather was rough, with a wind of 15 to 20 m/s, force 7-8 on the Beaufort scale and a significant wave height of 3 to 4 meters. This compares with the highest measured significant wave height in the Baltic Sea of 7.7 metres. Unlike other ferries on the route, she ran at full speed into the waves.

The report blamed the accident on the failure of locks on the bow visor, that broke under the strain of the waves. When the visor broke off the ship, it damaged the ramp, which covered the opening to the car deck behind the visor, with it. This allowed water in on the car deck which destabilized the ship and started a catastrophic chain of events. (Flooding on the car deck capsized the Herald of Free Enterprise where the bow doors were left open, and the Princess Victoria which sank in the storm which caused the North Sea Flood of 1953.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8hOvVerQug

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1a/MS_Estonia_model.jpg)

Sad story! But nice boat! :)

R.I.P Estonia

Also found the radio maday! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUr-Cm_Ui6o
Title: Re: Some one seen the program on Discovery!??
Post by: Jazz on August 13, 2007, 00:06:56: My grandmother's friends son was supposed to travel with Estonia, due to a meeting he just missed it, came home angry as hell, only to turn on the TV and realise that the ship had sunk. :-\
Title: Re: Some one seen the program on Discovery!??
Post by: J3nsen on August 13, 2007, 00:10:52: Dam lucky!
Title: Re: Some one seen the program on Discovery!??
Post by: Jazz on August 13, 2007, 00:18:28: Yep, If I'm correct he took a month of to visit his relatives... granny and I haven't spoken in a long while. :P
Title: Re: Some one seen the program on Discovery!??
Post by: Fox Luna on August 13, 2007, 00:27:11: Hi J3nsen

it looks like i missed this program that's really BAD BAD BAD :( :( :'( :'(

I think that the estonia disaster could have been avoid, because all other ferries which operated the baltic sea in that region (such as viking line silja line etc) slowed down and that maked them delayed, On Estline they said that "we want to hold the timeschedule"and for be able to do that they needed to hold full speed, and the seas where VERY big this night. The power of such big wawes are gigantic and the presure that is put on the bow visor from the wawes maked the locks to brake, I think the crew on the estonia not was use to the ship because it had not been in estline's ownership for long time , and the ship wasn't in the best condition, it needed to be fixed and just fresh it up(if you understand what i mean)

You can't go with full speed (21 kts ) when it is so big wawes because the ship won't hold for that because the forces of water can be really big

[this is my personal opinion about the accident ]

regards
Title: Re: Some one seen the program on Discovery!??
Post by: Stuart2007 on August 13, 2007, 02:41:30: There's a lt of controversy about the events AFTER the sinking...

have a look at wikipedia. Maybe just a daft conspiricy theory, but there are some odd facts about it. Making it ilegal by agreement of several countries to dive to the wreck. And there are stories that it has been encased in 1000s of tonnes of concrete to prevent any inspection.

Anyone from the area really know anything behind these stories?

Stu
Title: Re: Some one seen the program on Discovery!??
Post by: J3nsen on August 13, 2007, 02:51:16: Nope, i been intrested in this story today! They have dived down to the ship, they seen the captain and more, since they would have something from the controll rom, they have also taked up 300 peopel from the resturants and bar! It's still 600 down there in the rom, family ho sleeped that nigth and died in the rooms!
Title: Re: Some one seen the program on Discovery!??
Post by: Stuart2007 on August 13, 2007, 02:53:32: If they are taking the bodies out then it hasn't been covered in concrete and so the stories are, as expected, a hoax.

Stu
Title: Re: Some one seen the program on Discovery!??
Post by: J3nsen on August 13, 2007, 03:05:04: I think they has gived up to search bodyes, some one want the millitery to use it for training, other want the ship to RIP! :-\
Title: Re: Some one seen the program on Discovery!??
Post by: captainmcd on August 13, 2007, 08:18:11: This sinking caused IMO to implement the Safety Management System (ISM) and now a record of all communication between the ship and the shoreside management are well documented, and shoreside managers share responsibility for proper maintenance and operations. The downside is that ship's officers have a lot more paperwork and audits to contend with, which can cause fatigue and more accidents.
Title: Re: Some one seen the program on Discovery!??
Post by: groennegaard on August 13, 2007, 16:45:52: I think their official excuse for covering the wreck with concrete was to prevent private divers from desecrating of the grave of the remaining 600 bodies. But this doesn't really make sense. Why cover the scene of the crime with concrete before the investigation has a clear result? Someone has an interest in hiding the truth. There must be something we don't know...
Title: Re: Some one seen the program on Discovery!??
Post by: J3nsen on August 13, 2007, 17:38:15: The company ho made the door on this boat was to bad!
Title: Re: Some one seen the program on Discovery!??
Post by: groennegaard on August 13, 2007, 17:50:30: Quote from: J3nsen on August 13, 2007, 17:38:15
The company ho made the door on this boat was to bad!

That was 'the official' cause, but this conclusion was criticized by several independant experts.
Title: Re: Some one seen the program on Discovery!??
Post by: Stuart2007 on August 13, 2007, 21:13:58: Groennegaard- DID they cover it in concrete?

Desecrate a grave? Morally wrong- but they are giving it the same status as a military grave. Very unusual- IF- the concrete story is true.

How many ships have sunk and been treated in this way? I'm generally sceptical of conspiracy theories, but baring in mind the leak of former soviet weaponery through easten europe and scandinavia, one must wonder.

It would be interesting to learn if any radioactive materials are missing...

Stu

EDIT: One thing does occur to me. At that depth, only specialist diving companies can reach it. Not your Sunday divers. Are such professional institutions likely to commit the grave robbing crimes that the various governments are so worried about?
Title: Re: Some one seen the program on Discovery!??
Post by: groennegaard on August 13, 2007, 23:02:33: Quote from: Stuart2007 on August 13, 2007, 21:13:58
Groennegaard- DID they cover it in concrete?
...
How many ships have sunk and been treated in this way? I'm generally sceptical of conspiracy theories, but baring in mind the leak of former soviet weaponery through easten europe and scandinavia, one must wonder.
It would be interesting to learn if any radioactive materials are missing...
...
EDIT: One thing does occur to me. At that depth, only specialist diving companies can reach it. Not your Sunday divers. Are such professional institutions likely to commit the grave robbing crimes that the various governments are so worried about?

Yes they did. I cannot believe they did it but it is done. You do not cover bodies with concrete... you cover radioactive materials with concrete... ::)

groennegaard
Title: Re: Some one seen the program on Discovery!??
Post by: Stuart2007 on August 13, 2007, 23:07:57: Very strange indeed. As I said, why not all the shipwrecks- why this one? whether there is anything behind these theories, it is highly questionable on this occasion.

I understand (from the wikipedia- not always reliable) that Britain was one of the countries that signed up to protect the wreck site... Very strange since there were not reported to be many, if at all, British casualties and it wasn't a british ship and was certainly not near british waters.

The scandinavian countries, I can understand- but why us? unless we are also protecting some secret about it.

I know there is a theory about that it was sabotaged because of alleged weaponery onboard- unlikely, but in this day and age can you really be so sure?
Title: Re: Some one seen the program on Discovery!??
Post by: Ship Sim on August 14, 2007, 06:28:39: Maby someone is trying to hide something
Title: Some one seen the program on Discovery!??
Post by: simplayer on August 14, 2007, 08:24:05: Too many people are infected with the 9/11 virus, conspiracys and all that...
I have read the full 588 pages of the official repport, and the first (and only) mistake was made by the crew.
They wanted to keep there ETA as the timetable said, in order to do so they cranked up the speed, and that set the start for the dissaster.
On the other hand there was a full chapter in the repport about the some of the crew not being trained well enough to start an abandon ship procedure, witnesses even declared that some crewmembers ran and saved their own lives, leaving helpless people behind.
Title: Re: Some one seen the program on Discovery!??
Post by: groennegaard on August 14, 2007, 09:09:44: Quote from: simplayer on August 14, 2007, 08:24:05
Too many people are infected with the 9/11 virus, conspiracys and all that...
I have read the full 588 pages of the official repport, and the first (and only) mistake was made by the crew.
They wanted to keep there ETA as the timetable said, in order to do so they cranked up the speed, and that set the start for the dissaster.
On the other hand there was a full chapter in the repport about the some of the crew not being trained well enough to start an abandon ship procedure, witnesses even declared that some crewmembers ran and saved their own lives, leaving helpless people behind.

Hi simplayer! :)

9/11 was in 2001. The Estonia report was critizised long before that - the Estonia disaster was in 1994.

Of course the crew may have contributed to the disaster, but the accident report does not explain how the vessel sank. The report says that Estonia had a severe listing but there is noting about capsizing. How could it sink that fast and why cover up the wreck with concrete before that important question is answered? ::) Seems a bit suspicious to me.

Here is some interesting reading questioning the method used for calculation the cardeck water inflow:
http://estonia.kajen.com/Naval_Architect_Jan_07.pdf

When I think of the staggering amount of money spent on upgrading passengerships to meet the requirements in the Stockholm-convention (made on the basis of the defective Estonia investigation report), I really cannot believe that the sinking was not investigated completely.

Regards
groennegaard
Title: Re: Some one seen the program on Discovery!??
Post by: simplayer on August 14, 2007, 19:30:50: I did not read a report that was made public, i read an official report from coastguard officials.
I was working on a rescuevessel at that time, so we had acces to that report.

First -I meant that people always look for other stories when some facts are not clear to them (9/11)

Second -the report did say how the ship sank, At about 0115 hrs the visor separated from the bow and tilted over the stem. The ramp was pulled fully open, allowing large amounts of water to enter the car deck. Very rapidly the ship took on a heavy starboard list. She was turned to port and slowed down. You only need 5 inches of water on the whole of the deck to start a ship rolling from starb. to port, each time the vessel rolls a bit more, more and more water staples up each time, at that time she was still taking in water from the front so the movement of tons of water increased, even for a vessel of that size it doesnt take much time to give it a list she cant return from.
Flooding of the accommodation continued with considerable speed and the starboard side of the ship was submerged at about 0130
During the final stage of flooding the list was more than 90 degrees. The ship sank rapidly, stern first, and disappeared from the radar screens of ships in the area at about 0150
So you see, it took her only 35 minutes to go down
The position of the wreck is 59Â°22,9Â´ N, 21Â°41,0Â´ E.

Third -i do have some familiarisation with a tragedy like this because i took part in the rescue operation with the HERALD OF FREE ENTERPRISE

Fourth -send me a piece of that concrete, and maybe... i'll believe it...
Title: Re: Some one seen the program on Discovery!??
Post by: Stuart2007 on August 15, 2007, 00:19:46: Simplayer,

I too am very sceptical about conspiracy theories. 9/11, princess of wales, lord lucan, moon cheese etc. However, on this occasion I too have watched with interest and have found issues that can not be resolved.

I am not a trained mariner, but I am aware of other issues- not even relating to the sea- that has an effect on this. Like the death of a certain Dr Kelly of Iraq fame, after reading the facts I have decided that in my opinion there is something sinister.

Most conspiracy theorists are idiots who can not see the logic in ANY arguement, but occasionally one comes along that doesn't make sense. Not saying there IS something amiss, but someone is certainly lying about something...

Stu
Title: Re: Some one seen the program on Discovery!??
Post by: simplayer on August 15, 2007, 00:52:33: Evening Stu,
I can agree with you that some events cannot be explained, but nowadays some people arent satisfied with normal or explainable things, they see too much television and try too see things in reallife that are not there, maybe there bored with there life.
I too have a very flexible immagination, but still, logic almost always overcomes.
Only i get the "seven year itch" when some people read or hear things once, and take it for granted without checking more than one possibility or concrete facts.
In the Estonia case, what amount of concrete would you need to seal of that ship, and if so they cant pull that off in a few nights, so do you realy think no one would notice an operation of that size in waters full of traffic like there.
And is there no familymember of a deceised person that would start to ask around...
Title: Re: Some one seen the program on Discovery!??
Post by: Stuart2007 on August 15, 2007, 01:17:53: That's the point... they are.

As I've already said, I don't go in for conspiracy theories unless I make a conscious decision to believe it. Most theorists are just idiots who watch too much TV.

All I am saying is there is a hell of a lot of circumstantial evidence that goes beyond ships right to eastern europe politics.

As for the sinking- that was ust incompetence on the part of the skipper. The conspiracy theories about it being sabotage are, as you say, ridiculous.
Title: Re: Some one seen the program on Discovery!??
Post by: Al Bundy on August 15, 2007, 16:06:08: Quote from: Stuart2007 on August 13, 2007, 23:07:57
I understand (from the wikipedia- not always reliable) that Britain was one of the countries that signed up to protect the wreck site... Very strange since there were not reported to be many, if at all, British casualties and it wasn't a british ship and was certainly not near british waters.
I dont find it very strange. I guess it is the wish of the countries which lost a citizen that the wreck should be protected and that Britain agreed in respect. The wreck is within diving distance without special submarines. By signing the agreement Britain could now prosecute divers thus helping in protecting the grave site.

This article explains it very well: http://www.ce-review.org/00/32/amber32.html
Title: Re: Some one seen the program on Discovery!??
Post by: Stuart2007 on August 15, 2007, 20:45:55: Come off it! your average diver isn't going to get their without professional equipment. If it were a few miles from coast in shallow water then, yes, every diver will be going for a look.

But the average scuba diver will go 130 ft (40+ metres) or maybe 190ft (60metres) with specialised equipment including a different mix of gas in the aqualung.

The point being to descend to that depth and start looking around in a ship wreck is NOT the domain of an amateur diver. It is at least 75 metres depth and this can not be dived without the use of submersibles - maybe even a basic diving bell, but not just a wet/drysuit.

Oxygen toxicity and hypothermia would kill you quite quickly. So, again, there are several professional diving companies around the world and they are professional so not likely to engage in grave robbing.

I would question your logic in one respect... if countries are concerned about respect for the dead, why has titanic not been encased where there is clearly a much greater risk of grave robbing?

WHAT the real story is, I don't know. But I do agree that SOMETHING is going on that we aren't allowed to know about. And NO, I don't believe it was sunk deliberately, that is nonsense.

Stu
Title: Re: Some one seen the program on Discovery!??
Post by: Orinoco on August 15, 2007, 21:03:08: Titanic is subject to its own conspiracy theories, and not anyone can go and visit - after all, the salvage rights to the site were awarded to RMS Titanic Inc. (Quite why an American court gets to issue this right for a British ship is beyond me).

Also, not just anyone can afford submersibles that can go down in excess of 13,000 feet of water.
Title: Re: Some one seen the program on Discovery!??
Post by: Stuart2007 on August 15, 2007, 21:07:09: Yes, but most of the people who believe the titanic conspiracies are total nutters.

US courts get jursidiction because it is closer to their shores than ours and also it was an american owned ship after all. It may have flown a red ensign, but it was owned by america.

what the legal system is for awarding salvage rights I do not know- maybe some others here can answer.

but you have also made my point for me... not everyone can afford to hire submersibles- whether 13000 or 210 ft is irrelevant- you still can not dive down below 200ft and certainly not rob graves (deep diving is severely restricted in time to avoid oxygen toxicity)
Title: Re: Some one seen the program on Discovery!??
Post by: Orinoco on August 15, 2007, 21:13:20: Quote from: Stuart2007 on August 15, 2007, 21:07:09
US courts get jursidiction because it is closer to their shores than ours and also it was an american owned ship after all. It may have flown a red ensign, but it was owned by america.

Didn't realise that, thanks. Also, didn't she fly a Blue Ensign? I thought she was one of the few vessels allowed the exemption? (I could be wrong!)
Title: Re: Some one seen the program on Discovery!??
Post by: Stuart2007 on August 15, 2007, 21:14:42: As I understand, capt ej could fly the blue ensign as he was an naval auxiliary reserve, but in practice it did fly the red ensign. I may be wrong.
Title: Re: Some one seen the program on Discovery!??
Post by: Orinoco on August 15, 2007, 21:17:45: Quote from: Stuart2007 on August 15, 2007, 21:14:42
As I understand, capt ej could fly the blue ensign as he was an naval auxiliary reserve, but in practice it did fly the red ensign. I may be wrong.

Hm, interesting. Can anyone answer this?
Title: Re: Some one seen the program on Discovery!??
Post by: Stuart2007 on August 15, 2007, 21:56:03: It has been answered before. I'll have a look for it.
Title: Re: Some one seen the program on Discovery!??
Post by: Orinoco on August 15, 2007, 22:18:33: Quote from: Stuart2007 on August 15, 2007, 21:56:03
It has been answered before. I'll have a look for it.

Thanks! :-*
Title: Re: Some one seen the program on Discovery!??
Post by: LucAtC on August 15, 2007, 22:49:41: Hello Stu,
There are references that the Blue Ensign was flown by Titanic.
It was discussed in
:D
http://www.shipsim.com/ShipSimForum/index.php/topic,206.50.html
:D
http://www.nava.org/Flag%20Information/articles/Titantic/titanic.htm
indicates it, as also did
:D
http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/RMS_Titanic or of course
:D
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RMS_Titanic
Other references can be found?
Regards,
Luc
Title: Re: Some one seen the program on Discovery!??
Post by: simplayer on August 16, 2007, 07:03:52: At last,
i was starting to feel quit lonely here...

Stuart made a good point here, professional divers would not be to keen on diving on an illegal site.
Conspiracy, all major accidents have a way of being mystical, why, because sometimes there are matters of national interest or security involved, you dont have to blow these things up, its not that they would ship a nuclear reactor with a civillian vessel, it could well be a few new millitary vehicals they transported.
I'm only giving an example here, dont take my word for it, i mean that in some cases there are laws being preordred in case something happens, and sometimes accidents do happen to all of us, no matter what precautions you make...
Title: Re: Some one seen the program on Discovery!??
Post by: Al Bundy on August 16, 2007, 16:38:26: Quote from: Stuart2007 on August 15, 2007, 20:45:55
Come off it! your average diver isn't going to get their without professional equipment. If it were a few miles from coast in shallow water then, yes, every diver will be going for a look.

But the average scuba diver will go 130 ft (40+ metres) or maybe 190ft (60metres) with specialised equipment including a different mix of gas in the aqualung.

The point being to descend to that depth and start looking around in a ship wreck is NOT the domain of an amateur diver. It is at least 75 metres depth and this can not be dived without the use of submersibles - maybe even a basic diving bell, but not just a wet/drysuit.

You missed the point Stuart. The point was that the wreck is a grave site and countries want to protect it as such no matter if it takes professional to dive on it or not.

Now I will not pretend to know much about diving as I really don't. Estonia is lying on 74-85 meters of water . Is that measured to the buttom of the sea or to the top of the ship? If it is the later then she, with her 24.20 meters wide, would make the top side about 60 -70 meters below water, a distance you say can be done with special apparatus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_Estonia

According to same article Swedish navy has chased of divers twice, and in year 2000 BBC brought this article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/891480.stm
So maybe it takes professionals to dive but apparently professionals wants to do just that.

Now that you mention grave robbery:
If I lost families in the wreck I would not be comfortable knowing that people would be allowed to swim around them and take their belongings.

BTW: World record of scuba diving is 214 meters though http://www.scubarecords.com/ (almost third the distance of Estonia)
and already in 1935 they were able to dive to Lusitania 100 meters down. http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2005/MichaelCalamera.shtml

Quote from: Stuart2007 on August 15, 2007, 20:45:55
I would question your logic in one respect... if countries are concerned about respect for the dead, why has titanic not been encased where there is clearly a much greater risk of grave robbing?

Not only is there a greater risk of grave robbing, it has also happened and continue to happen. RMST has the salvage right.
I would love to form a company that would encase Titanic in concrete. That would ensure work for the rest of my life and my decendants also. Try to drop silt or concrete from 3800 meters above the wreck and hit it. :)

Quote from: Stuart2007 on August 15, 2007, 20:45:55
So, again, there are several professional diving companies around the world and they are professional so not likely to engage in grave robbing.

let me I question your logic in one respect: If only professional companies are able to dive deep and professional companies are not likely to engage in grave robbing, who brought up all the artifact from Titanic and put them on display?

Quote from: Stuart2007 on August 15, 2007, 20:45:55
US courts get jursidiction because it is closer to their shores than ours and also it was an american owned ship after all

I thought Newfoundland was Canadian, and Titanic was British. Norfolk court took juristriction over the wreck but I doubt it had any international values before it was ratified by Canada, US, France and Great Britain. I am no Expert in international law though ;)
Title: Re: Some one seen the program on Discovery!??
Post by: Stuart2007 on August 16, 2007, 22:36:37: I'm a bit concerned that you think me some half wit. One is quite wrong. All I recall doing is pointing out that there have been some rather strange occurances with this sinking. I have pointed out plausible possibilities, but have not stated them as fact.

I merely ask how normal it is to cover a ship in concrete? How many ships have sunk with loss of life? I think maybe you should look beyond the current discusion.

Again, I am only putting one simple possibility along here: During the 90's the USSR was breaking up; there was a lot of military equipment that was lost/ sold etc. WHY is it not possible that there was something nasty on the ship? I'm not saying there was you understand, I merely point out a possibility that has been discussed before.

As for the difference between the sea bed depth and the depth to the top of the ship- have you any idea how much physical effort is needed to survive at that depth, let alone go wandering around a decomposig ship? Remember... it will be dark... cold... dangerous... sharp damaged metal, trip hazards, conger eels ;)

You make it sound like someone going for a swim in a park lake- it isn't. As for the record of diving- I know that the land speed record is about 760mph- but not ALL cars will do it. Same applies to diving.

Stu
Title: Re: Some one seen the program on Discovery!??
Post by: Al Bundy on August 17, 2007, 05:19:35: Quote from: Stuart2007 on August 16, 2007, 22:36:37
I'm a bit concerned that you think me some half wit. One is quite wrong.

No Stuart I don't think you are some half wit. If I did I would not have this debate in the first place. I would just ignore you.

Quote from: Stuart2007 on August 16, 2007, 22:36:37
All I recall doing is pointing out that there have been some rather strange occurances with this sinking. I have pointed out plausible possibilities, but have not stated them as fact.

I merely ask how normal it is to cover a ship in concrete?

I have never heard of any other wreck that was covered in concrete. Never, so I don't think it is normal. Then again it could be that it is just about the depth of the wreck. If higher, bodies would have been recovered, if lower there would have been no problem. Or maybe they use that as an excuse to cover it.

Quote from: Stuart2007 on August 16, 2007, 22:36:37
Again, I am only putting one simple possibility along here: During the 90's the USSR was breaking up; there was a lot of military equipment that was lost/ sold etc. WHY is it not possible that there was something nasty on the ship? I'm not saying there was you understand, I merely point out a possibility that has been discussed before.
It is very possible that there is something nasty on the ship. I agree. I am sure we would be horrified if we knew everything about military transportation on an every day basis. Agents/spies who uses public transportation, military using civil vehicles and so on. You make a very good point that in the early 1990 no one really knew who had control of soviet military equipment and its whereabouts and maybe a lot of money went into foreign intelligence trying to get a picture of the situation.

I will not speculate what was on board the ship. I chose to think of it as poor maintainance and poor seamanship.

Quote from: Stuart2007 on August 16, 2007, 22:36:37
You make it sound like someone going for a swim in a park lake- it isn't. As for the record of diving- I know that the land speed record is about 760mph- but not ALL cars will do it. Same applies to diving.

Stu

Nice comparations Stu :) I was merely pointing out that eventhough it is tough and dangerous (divers have lost lives on the Andrea Doria who is "only" on around 56 meters of water) there are always some milionaires who will think of them selves as self made science person and do the dive. That is what my web quotes was about. Especially the BBC article. It can be done diving on the wreck if you have the equitment.

And yes it is a bit strange that these countries guard the wreck so closely. :-\

About the cars, have you heard of the cannonball runs? millionaires who owns fast cars and use these cars to compete on highways. They disregard that it is illegal and does it anyway. :)
Title: Re: Some one seen the program on Discovery!??
Post by: Stuart2007 on August 17, 2007, 22:01:45: The problem is that we are all basing opinions on second hand news. I haven't seen the wreck, so I can't confirm that there is any concrete on it.

I am generally very suspicious of any government now. I think we can all consider examples of countries recently acting in a less than transparent manner- I live in one of them ;)

I travelled quite a bit into communist controlled countries before the end of the cold war and have read many of the now de-classified reports from the era and some of the secret 'wargames' that were acted out are quite worrying- which is why I am keeping an open mind on this. But the ship sank through incompetence and maybe maintenance- nothing else as far as i can see.

Stu