Some one seen the program on Discovery!??

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[J3nsen]

Some one seen the program on Discovery there ESTONIA sink!!?? I watched that now! Remote videotapes of the wreck showed that the locks on the bow door had failed and that the door had separated from the rest of the vessel.

The Estonia disaster occurred on September 28, 1994 at about 00:55 to 01:50 (UTC+2) en route from Tallinn, Estonia to Stockholm, Sweden carrying 989 passengers and crew.

M/S Estonia was expected to arrive in Stockholm at about 09:30. According to the Final disaster report The weather was rough, with a wind of 15 to 20 m/s, force 7-8 on the Beaufort scale and a significant wave height of 3 to 4 meters. This compares with the highest measured significant wave height in the Baltic Sea of 7.7 metres. Unlike other ferries on the route, she ran at full speed into the waves.

The report blamed the accident on the failure of locks on the bow visor, that broke under the strain of the waves. When the visor broke off the ship, it damaged the ramp, which covered the opening to the car deck behind the visor, with it. This allowed water in on the car deck which destabilized the ship and started a catastrophic chain of events. (Flooding on the car deck capsized the Herald of Free Enterprise where the bow doors were left open, and the Princess Victoria which sank in the storm which caused the North Sea Flood of 1953.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8hOvVerQug

Sad story! But nice boat!

R.I.P Estonia

Also found the radio maday! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUr-Cm_Ui6o

[Jazz]

My grandmother's friends son was supposed to travel with Estonia, due to a meeting he just missed it, came home angry as hell, only to turn on the TV and realise that the ship had sunk. 

[J3nsen]

Dam lucky!

[Jazz]

Yep, If I'm correct he took a month of to visit his relatives... granny and I haven't spoken in a long while.

[Fox Luna]

Hi J3nsen

it looks like i missed this program that's really BAD BAD BAD

I think that the estonia disaster could have been avoid, because all other ferries which operated the baltic sea in that region (such as viking line silja line etc) slowed down and that maked them delayed, On Estline they said that "we want to hold the timeschedule"and for be able to do that they needed to hold full speed, and the seas where VERY big this night. The power of such big wawes are gigantic and the presure that is put on the bow visor from the wawes maked the locks to brake, I think the crew on the estonia not was use to the ship because it had not been in estline's ownership for long time , and the ship wasn't in the best condition, it needed to be fixed and just fresh it up(if you understand what i mean)

You can't go with full speed (21 kts ) when it is so big wawes because the ship won't hold for that because the forces of water can be really big

[this is my personal opinion about the accident ]


regards

[Stuart2007]

There's a lt of controversy about the events AFTER the sinking...

have a look at wikipedia. Maybe just a daft conspiricy theory, but there are some odd facts about it. Making it ilegal by agreement of several countries to dive to the wreck. And there are stories that it has been encased in 1000s of tonnes of concrete to prevent any inspection.

Anyone from the area really know anything behind these stories?

Stu

[J3nsen]

Nope, i been intrested in this story today! They have dived down to the ship, they seen the captain and more, since they would have something from the controll rom, they have also taked up 300 peopel from the resturants and bar! It's still 600 down there in the rom, family ho sleeped that nigth and died in the rooms!

[Stuart2007]

If they are taking the bodies out then it hasn't been covered in concrete and so the stories are, as expected, a hoax.

Stu

[J3nsen]

I think they has gived up to search bodyes, some one want the millitery to use it for training, other want the ship to RIP! 

[captainmcd]

This sinking caused IMO to implement the Safety Management System (ISM) and now a record of all communication between the ship and the shoreside management are well documented, and shoreside managers share responsibility for proper maintenance and operations.  The downside is that ship's officers have a lot more paperwork and audits to contend with, which can cause fatigue and more accidents.

[groennegaard]

I think their official excuse for covering the wreck with concrete was to prevent private divers from desecrating of the grave of the remaining 600 bodies. But this doesn't really make sense. Why cover the scene of the crime with concrete before the investigation has a clear result? Someone has an interest in hiding the truth. There must be something we don't know...

[J3nsen]

The company ho made the door on this boat was to bad!

[groennegaard]

The company ho made the door on this boat was to bad!

That was 'the official' cause, but this conclusion was criticized by several independant experts.

[Stuart2007]

Groennegaard- DID they cover it in concrete?

Desecrate a grave? Morally wrong- but they are giving it the same status as a military grave. Very unusual- IF- the concrete story is true.

How many ships have sunk and been treated in this way? I'm generally sceptical of conspiracy theories, but baring in mind the leak of former soviet weaponery through easten europe and scandinavia, one must wonder.

It would be interesting to learn if any radioactive materials are missing...

Stu

EDIT: One thing does occur to me. At that depth, only specialist diving companies can reach it. Not your Sunday divers. Are such professional institutions likely to commit the grave robbing crimes that the various governments are so worried about?

[groennegaard]

Groennegaard- DID they cover it in concrete?
...
How many ships have sunk and been treated in this way? I'm generally sceptical of conspiracy theories, but baring in mind the leak of former soviet weaponery through easten europe and scandinavia, one must wonder.
It would be interesting to learn if any radioactive materials are missing...
...
EDIT: One thing does occur to me. At that depth, only specialist diving companies can reach it. Not your Sunday divers. Are such professional institutions likely to commit the grave robbing crimes that the various governments are so worried about?

Yes they did. I cannot believe they did it but it is done. You do not cover bodies with concrete... you cover radioactive materials with concrete... 

groennegaard

[Stuart2007]

Very strange indeed. As I said, why not all the shipwrecks- why this one? whether there is anything behind these theories, it is highly questionable on this occasion.

I understand (from the wikipedia- not always reliable) that Britain was one of the countries that signed up to protect the wreck site... Very strange since there were not reported to be many, if at all, British casualties and it wasn't a british ship and was certainly not near british waters.

The scandinavian countries, I can understand- but why us? unless we are also protecting some secret about it.

I know there is a theory about that it was sabotaged because of alleged weaponery onboard- unlikely, but in this day and age can you really be so sure?

[Ship Sim]

Maby someone is trying to hide something

[simplayer]

Too many people are infected with the 9/11 virus, conspiracys and all that...
I have read the full 588 pages of the official repport, and the first (and only) mistake was made by the crew.
They wanted to keep there ETA as the timetable said, in order to do so they cranked up the speed, and that set the start for the dissaster.
On the other hand there was a full chapter in the repport about the some of the crew not being trained well enough to start an abandon ship procedure, witnesses even declared that some crewmembers ran and saved their own lives, leaving helpless people behind.

[groennegaard]

Too many people are infected with the 9/11 virus, conspiracys and all that...
I have read the full 588 pages of the official repport, and the first (and only) mistake was made by the crew.
They wanted to keep there ETA as the timetable said, in order to do so they cranked up the speed, and that set the start for the dissaster.
On the other hand there was a full chapter in the repport about the some of the crew not being trained well enough to start an abandon ship procedure, witnesses even declared that some crewmembers ran and saved their own lives, leaving helpless people behind.

Hi simplayer! 

9/11 was in 2001. The Estonia report was critizised long before that - the Estonia disaster was in 1994.

Of course the crew may have contributed to the disaster, but the accident report does not explain how the vessel sank. The report says that Estonia had a severe listing but there is noting about capsizing. How could it sink that fast and why cover up the wreck with concrete before that important question is answered?  Seems a bit suspicious to me.

Here is some interesting reading questioning the method used for calculation the cardeck water inflow:
http://estonia.kajen.com/Naval_Architect_Jan_07.pdf

When I think of the staggering amount of money spent on upgrading passengerships to meet the requirements in the Stockholm-convention (made on the basis of the defective Estonia investigation report), I really cannot believe that the sinking was not investigated completely.

Regards
groennegaard

[simplayer]

I did not read a report that was made public, i read an official report from coastguard officials.
I was working on a rescuevessel at that time, so we had acces to that report.

First -I meant that people always look for other stories when some facts are not clear to them (9/11)

Second -the report did say how the ship sank, At about 0115 hrs the visor separated from the bow and tilted over the stem. The ramp was pulled fully open, allowing large amounts of water to enter the car deck. Very rapidly the ship took on a heavy starboard list. She was turned to port and slowed down. You only need 5 inches of water on the whole of the deck to start a ship rolling from starb. to port, each time the vessel rolls a bit more, more and more water staples up each time, at that time she was still taking in water from the front so the movement of tons of water increased, even for a vessel of that size it doesnt take much time to give it a list she cant return from.
Flooding of the accommodation continued with considerable speed and the starboard side of the ship was submerged at about 0130
During the final stage of flooding the list was more than 90 degrees. The ship sank rapidly, stern first, and disappeared from the radar screens of ships in the area at about 0150
So you see, it took her only 35 minutes to go down
The position of the wreck is 59°22,9´ N, 21°41,0´ E.

Third -i do have some familiarisation with a tragedy like this because i took part in the rescue operation with the HERALD OF FREE ENTERPRISE

Fourth -send me a piece of that concrete, and maybe... i'll believe it...

[Stuart2007]

Simplayer,

I too am very sceptical about conspiracy theories. 9/11, princess of wales, lord lucan, moon cheese etc. However, on this occasion I too have watched with interest and have found issues that can not be resolved.

I am not a trained mariner, but I am aware of other issues- not even relating to the sea- that has an effect on this. Like the death of a certain Dr Kelly of Iraq fame, after reading the facts I have decided that in my opinion there is something sinister.

Most conspiracy theorists are idiots who can not see the logic in ANY arguement, but occasionally one comes along that doesn't make sense. Not saying there IS something amiss, but someone is certainly lying about something...

Stu

[simplayer]

Evening Stu,
I can agree with you that some events cannot be explained, but nowadays some people arent satisfied with normal or explainable things, they see too much television and try too see things in reallife that are not there, maybe there bored with there life.
I too have a very flexible immagination, but still, logic almost always overcomes.
Only i get the "seven year itch" when some people read or hear things once, and take it for granted without checking more than one possibility or concrete facts.
In the Estonia case, what amount of concrete would you need to seal of that ship, and if so they cant pull that off in a few nights, so do you realy think no one would notice an operation of that size in waters full of traffic like there.
And is there no familymember of a deceised person that would start to ask around...

[Stuart2007]

That's the point... they are.

As I've already said, I don't go in for conspiracy theories unless I make a conscious decision to believe it. Most theorists are just idiots who watch too much TV.

All I am saying is there is a hell of a lot of circumstantial evidence that goes beyond ships right to eastern europe politics.

As for the sinking- that was ust incompetence on the part of the skipper. The conspiracy theories about it being sabotage are, as you say, ridiculous.

[Al Bundy]

I understand (from the wikipedia- not always reliable) that Britain was one of the countries that signed up to protect the wreck site... Very strange since there were not reported to be many, if at all, British casualties and it wasn't a british ship and was certainly not near british waters.

I dont find it very strange. I guess it is the wish of the countries which lost a citizen that the wreck should be protected and that Britain agreed in respect. The wreck is within diving distance without special submarines. By signing the agreement Britain could now prosecute divers thus helping in protecting the grave site. 

This article explains it very well: http://www.ce-review.org/00/32/amber32.html

[Stuart2007]

Come off it! your average diver isn't going to get their without professional equipment. If it were a few miles from coast in shallow water then, yes, every diver will be going for a look.

But the average scuba diver will go 130 ft (40+ metres) or maybe 190ft (60metres) with specialised equipment including a different mix of gas in the aqualung.

The point being to descend to that depth and start looking around in a ship wreck is NOT the domain of an amateur diver. It is at least 75 metres depth and this can not be dived without the use of submersibles - maybe even a basic diving bell, but not just a wet/drysuit.

Oxygen toxicity and hypothermia would kill you quite quickly. So, again, there are several professional diving companies around the world and they are professional so not likely to engage in grave robbing.

I would question your logic in one respect... if countries are concerned about respect for the dead, why has titanic not been encased where there is clearly a much greater risk of grave robbing?

WHAT the real story is, I don't know. But I do agree that SOMETHING is going on that we aren't allowed to know about. And NO, I don't believe it was sunk deliberately, that is nonsense.

Stu