RMS Gigantic Explains US Equivalents

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[Agent|Austin]

But obviously, all Americans are "Yanks", whether from the northern or southern states.

   You did NOT just call me a yank did you. 

[TerryRussell]

Yep.

Any my Wife and two sisters-in-law and my mother-in-law and brother-in-law. To us Brits, all Yanks are Yanks. 

[Agent|Austin]

Yep.

Any my Wife and two sisters-in-law and my mother-in-law and brother-in-law. To us Brits, all Yanks are Yanks. 

 

Bad boy! 

[Mad_Fred]

That terms comes from the friendly insult made by the Dutch settlers in Pennsylvania to the surrounding British. The Brits called themselves "John Bulldog" (meaning hard as nails). The Dutuch called them "John Cheese" (meaning soft as cheese).

To a British ear the Dutch sound was like "Yankees". Fred may be able to say Jan Cheese for you to hear if you listen loudly enough... Eventually, the British "back home" in Blighty called their counterparts in teh Americas "Yankees", now "Yanks".

Actually Terry, I was always told/taught it's the other way around..  Yankee(s) was the name that the British called the Dutch settlers.

The OED suggests the most plausible origin to be that it is derived from the Dutch first names "Jan" and "Kees".
Those were and still are common Dutch first names, and also common Dutch given names or nicknames. In many instances both names (Jan-Kees) are also used as a single first name in the Netherlands.

The word Yankee in this sense would be used as a form of contempt, applied first to the Dutch and later also to the English settlers in the New England states.

Another speculation suggests the Dutch form was Jan Kaas, "John Cheese", from the prevalence of dairy-farming among the Dutch settlers. Although this is not a popular theory.

Another theory says the term refers to the Dutch nickname and surname Janke, anglicized to Yanke and "used as a nickname for a Dutch-speaking American in colonial times". By extension, according to the theory, the term grew to include non-Dutch American colonists as well.

The term Yankee now means residents of New England, of English ancestry, although that was not the original definition.

I never heard the John Bulldog vs. John Cheese theory before. Isn't that just a cover up to hide the fact that you called us names back then?      (Yes I know.. everyone called everyone names back then.. oh wait... and still does today)

Regards,
Fred


(source: my history lessons at school, backed up by wiki to refresh my memory..) 

[CaptainMike1]

Fred

I would suggest that your explanation is nearer the truth than Terry's!!

[TerryRussell]

Fred

I would suggest that your explanation is nearer the truth than Terry's!!

What proof do you have?

I was given that nugget of information by two professors at Princeton, New Jersey who had spent around 30 years of research time between them studying the phonology and morpology of such sayings.

And your source is what, exactly? 

[Mad_Fred]

I'm not sure about his proof Terry, but my explaination comes from the history professors back when I still had potential.. Well.. in a manner of speaking.. But I wasn't cut out to be a scholar, really... 

Plus the EOD, wiki, and a large number of "origin of words/sayings" websites. On which I never encountered the Bulldog vs. Cheese  theory to be honest. 

All the most popular theories, apart from it being a native american word for 'coward'. (Aenke, IIRC)  speak of the Dutch being called that, not the English.

And I of course don't want to insult those professors you speak of, au contraire, but the people who presented us with those popular and much heard/read theories are of course also life long experts on the subject, obviously.

Furthermore, the term "John Bull" as in Johnny Bulldog, is not as old as the term "Yankee"

"John Bull is a national personification of the Kingdom of Great Britain and England, originating in the creation of Dr. John Arbuthnot in 1712, and popularised first by British print makers and then overseas by illustrators and writers such as American cartoonist Thomas Nast and Irish writer George Bernard Shaw, author of John Bull's Other Island."

But the term Yankee is older.

"The use as a nickname for a person is attested to from the 1680s. The Calendar of State Papers, Colonial Series, an archive of British government documents, has this from 1683:

They sailed from Bonaco..; chief commanders, Vanhorn, Laurens, and Yankey Duch."

(translated back from english those would be Van Hoorn, Laurens and Janke, who's nickname was Yankey Duch)

"And from 1684:
A sloop...unlawfully seized by Captain Yankey. "

(Janke, the same guy as above, who was a pirate, and in this case, obviously seized a British sloop.)

So Yankee, although in an earlier form, is refered to well before John Bull even exsists.
I've gotten this info from various websites about the origins of words, wiki, the EOD and online dictionaries, and although no one is 100% sure, I can find no mentioning of the bull/cheese theory on any of them.

So sorry but I am sticking with my explaination, mate. 

Regards,
Fred

[TerryRussell]

Hi Fred.

I wasn't doubting you, my friend.

Your posts are always reliable! Even when made whilst eating Marmite while riding a unicycle.

As to which set of learned professors is right, who can tell? As with all academic postulations, they are based on research which can never be conclusive, and the conclusions reached can only be based on opinions.

To be honest, I don't actually care which set are correct and we can never know.

It just irritates me when some random person comes along and implies that I'm a fool. You of course, have never done such a thing!

[CaptainMike1]

Terry

I was not implying that you were a fool at all, Lord forbid. I was simply saying that I thought that Fred's explanation was more likely, especially as Jan Kees (Cees) are Dutch forenames. I suspect that there is no one in the world who can give an absolutely correct definition and thus anything else is speculation.

Sorry if I offended you, why would I do that to some one else from the South of England?

Regards

Mike

[TerryRussell]

Hi Fred.

I think you may be agreeing with the "Princeton Two". The point in my post was that the Dutch in Pennsylvania started calling the English what sounded like "Yankee". Most likely that came from an older usage of the term. Perhaps the "John Cheese" was a clever bi-lingual joke. Rather good if it was, and hope that is so.

Eventually, as some settlers and "higher ups" returned to England, the British started calling anyone in America "Yankee". So your information doesn't contradict what I was told. In fact it rather supports it. No doubt the Princeton Profs knew all of this information and a lot more, in great detail.

The sequence works.

As to whether it happened that way or not, who can tell?

But without John Cheese, there would be no Monty Python as we know it.