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Author Topic: are you joking with us?  (Read 23854 times)

ACR

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Re: are you joking with us?
« Reply #25 on: May 24, 2008, 10:39:39 »

yeah, thats only confirms vstep... users take their free time to post bugs and discuss ways how to improve. moderators deal with this topics in their freetime and use even more freetime trying to fix up. and then vstep throws it all away and does not include all the work, fantastic.

releasing this editor would be a BIG step forward but surely does not match the politics of vstep, so i guess it will not happen,not now, not in the future.

well highscores, yes.... like you said very very interesting and realistic to fight for if i,m 10 seconds quicker in manouvering a +300meter container vessel out of the container terminal or not... or racing down to marseille with a tanker...

and MP.. well, i was several times on the servers and all people i met there were interested in serious ships handling (with tugs etc) and not racing around. i do not see even 1% of fun editing the big ships so that they act like a sports boat and go online with them.

one word to the editor and the efford: you did not simply worked on the top speed but on the handling dynamics. thats a whole different story and indeed may take time. perhaps you can do one thing :take the editor and simply set a top speed of 37kts for the redjet untouching the other values. look if the other dynamics are then completely messed up. i pretty guess NO! it will be slower and maybe have a slightly lower rate of turn, thats it.

i do not request that you send me the file so we do something against the rules, just try it and report please. i bet its a work of 5 mins and not weeks.

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Captain Darling

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Re: are you joking with us?
« Reply #26 on: May 24, 2008, 11:05:17 »

and MP.. well, i was several times on the servers and all people i met there were interested in serious ships handling (with tugs etc) and not racing around. i do not see even 1% of fun editing the big ships so that they act like a sports boat and go online with them.
But some people will edit them to behave like a sports boat anyway if they would be able to, and go online, and personally I would like ShipSim realistic where possible. Letting users edit things will make it unrelistic.

I would like 2 PoR's to handle the same, not one handling like a speedboat and the other one handling the way Vstep put it.

Also I was in the red jet yesterday and was unable to get it to 45knots in calm weather :-\ (in the 1.4.1 patch)
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Regards,
James

ACR

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Re: are you joking with us?
« Reply #27 on: May 24, 2008, 13:37:44 »

it is NOW unrealistic. and try again. when i,m able to run 45kts in calm atlantic you will also be since we cannot change anything.  :-\

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armydude940

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Re: are you joking with us?
« Reply #28 on: May 24, 2008, 15:34:23 »

http://www2.redfunnel.co.uk/library/pdfs/ferry-travel/red_jet_fact_sheets.pdf

service speed 35kts. at factory trials in australia the no loaded ships reached 41kts , of course this is not reachable in every day business with passengers load .

Yes it says Knots BUT this games is in KTS not knotes
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TerryRussell

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Re: are you joking with us?
« Reply #29 on: May 24, 2008, 15:57:31 »

Yes it says Knots BUT this games is in KTS not knotes

Errr... you what? What do you mean?

kts is knots.

That's where 2 kts = 2 knots = 2 nautical miles per hour.

(I asusme that "knotes" was just a spelling mistake. Or do you have some other way of measuring speed where you live?)  ;)
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*M*A*S*

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Re: are you joking with us?
« Reply #30 on: May 24, 2008, 16:46:20 »

obviously this army guy dose not know or is being mis understood or not being specific enough to explain...
« Last Edit: May 24, 2008, 20:18:03 by *M*A*S* »
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*M*A*S*
Ships Officer
U.S. Merchant Marine

Dave M

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Re: are you joking with us?
« Reply #31 on: May 24, 2008, 19:47:14 »

Also I was in the red jet yesterday and was unable to get it to 45knots in calm weather :-\ (in the 1.4.1 patch)
On my old computer, (a 3 year old Intel Pentium 4 2.6 Ghz (2 CPU's) with an AGP Nvidea 7600 GS), the only way that I could get 42 Knots out of a Red Cat was to set my ingame graphics to 'low' and my graphics card to 'performance', if I set them both to 'high' and 'quality' I would struggle to get 39 Knots. With my new computer I can get 45 Knots. There are probably a lot of people who are running SSNH on older computers and laptops and could never approach that speed.
My solution would be that if you want to run the Cats at a realistic speed then ease off on the throttle.  :)
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ACR

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Re: are you joking with us?
« Reply #32 on: May 24, 2008, 20:46:17 »

häh? ships performance rises with system performance???

easing on the throtts is a good hint for soluting this problem  ;D
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Dave M

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Re: are you joking with us?
« Reply #33 on: May 24, 2008, 22:50:20 »

häh? ships performance rises with system performance???
Hi ACR,
Yes, your system performance very definitely affects the amount of Knots that you can get out of a particular vessel.
Quite a while ago I posted about this but I have searched the forum and cannot find the topic. I think it was one of the moderators that confirmed it but I can't be sure.
I still have my old system and have just done a Red Cat mission in SSNH and with the graphics set to 'low' I can just about manage 41.9 Knots.
Also;
The mission clock appears to use the real time clock on your system and so if you have stagger in your graphics then this adds to the mission completion time.
Regards, Dave
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TerryRussell

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Re: are you joking with us?
« Reply #34 on: May 25, 2008, 00:33:34 »

Hi ACR,
Yes, your system performance very definitely affects the amount of Knots that you can get out of a particular vessel.
Quite a while ago I posted about this but I have searched the forum and cannot find the topic. I think it was one of the moderators that confirmed it but I can't be sure.
I still have my old system and have just done a Red Cat mission in SSNH and with the graphics set to 'low' I can just about manage 41.9 Knots.
Also;
The mission clock appears to use the real time clock on your system and so if you have stagger in your graphics then this adds to the mission completion time.
Regards, Dave

Hi Dave.

I think it may have been me who confirmed it, but yes, processor speeed and graphics card performance can both affect the ship speed. That is really most odd, but since ship speed is supposedly measured against the PCs internal clock that could explain some of, although not all. But without sight of the programmng methodology, I can't know why this happens.

but it has been confirmed by a number of people now, including some that I trust implicitly to provide accurate feedback.
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ACR

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Re: are you joking with us?
« Reply #35 on: May 25, 2008, 01:50:29 »

ok, but this all would make the useless highscore times even fully useless... so give the editor free...
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Dave M

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Re: are you joking with us?
« Reply #36 on: May 25, 2008, 14:35:28 »

But some people will edit them to behave like a sports boat anyway if they would be able to, and go online, and personally I would like ShipSim realistic where possible. Letting users edit things will make it unrelistic.
I agree with Jamesd01, I know your intention is to make the ships behave as they should but............
If you have a look at this topic, http://www.shipsim.com/ShipSimForum/index.php/topic,5621.0.html , you will see that there are people who, (I suspect), have already hacked into the simulator to achieve best times.
I can't imagine what it would be like in Multi-Player if some of the rammers could edit ships! There would be 'Pushers' doing 40 knots!
Regards, Dave
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pauljanaway1

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Re: are you joking with us?
« Reply #37 on: May 25, 2008, 14:41:01 »

i would like to  know how some people have such fast times in missions somthing must be going one on  some missions the fastest time is so fast they must be cheating titanic to newyork the fastest time is 38 mins. within 38 mins at full speed im still in southampton
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TerryRussell

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Re: are you joking with us?
« Reply #38 on: May 25, 2008, 14:47:19 »

I think you'll find that the people with impossible times know how to bypass teh "locked" condition of downloaded games. They then move the startpoint or do some other trickery, then claim their fast times.

But forget the speed results. It's all pointless tomfoolery.

If the competition was to have any meaning, it would include timekeeping, fuel consumption, engine wear and so on.

But for that to be meaningful the game would have to have tides, currents and wind effects at least. Maybe 2009/10?
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pauljanaway1

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Re: are you joking with us?
« Reply #39 on: May 25, 2008, 21:34:43 »

maybe but i think it might be some time before winds curents and engine wear will come into play
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jemagnussen

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Re: are you joking with us?
« Reply #40 on: May 25, 2008, 21:40:15 »

But for that to be meaningful the game would have to have tides, currents and wind effects at least. Maybe 2009/10?

I have to tease you a little Terry, hope you forgive... - 2009/10 or when it has changed name to MS SSX... ;D

"MS Magnus"
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Cpt. of "MS Magnus"

TerryRussell

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Re: are you joking with us?
« Reply #41 on: May 25, 2008, 22:21:27 »

Ah you may be correct. But of course, I was measuring years in time elapsed since the crumbling of Microsoft after their "Year of the Vista Pig" and "Year of Office 2007 Dog"....  ;D
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ACR

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Re: are you joking with us?
« Reply #42 on: May 26, 2008, 21:08:47 »

it would really be interesting who of the developers and why had the great idea challenging fastest times at a game dealing with also big civilian ships like e.g a panamax container...  ::)

cheating possibilities inclusive... take out or highly rework the ranking system and give us the object editor!
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Dave M

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Re: are you joking with us?
« Reply #43 on: May 26, 2008, 21:45:38 »

Ah you may be correct. But of course, I was measuring years in time elapsed since the crumbling of Microsoft after their "Year of the Vista Pig" and "Year of Office 2007 Dog"....  ;D
Hi Terry,
I wholeheartedly agree, two of my colleagues have laptops with 'Vista' and they have to go through hoops to get it to do what they want, ('Vista' seems to treat its users like idiots, (nanny state thinking, a bit like our government ;) ), sorry, didn't mean to get political  ::) ).
Office 2007, (never mind where do I begin, where do I stop!), one simple example.
I want to insert a column in an Excel spreadsheet so I go to the 'insert' option, I can insert photos, graphs and all sorts of things, (probably even a digit!), but not a column!

it would really be interesting who of the developers and why had the great idea challenging fastest times at a game dealing with also big civilian ships like e.g a panamax container...  ::)

cheating possibilities inclusive... take out or highly rework the ranking system and give us the object editor!
I agree with you that the 'high score' system isn't ideal and could benefit from a rework and reset, including obeyance of 'speed limits', 'rules of the road' and 'fuel used' but the ranking system is pretty good I thought. You can see at a glance how you are doing.
Regards, Dave
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groennegaard

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Re: are you joking with us?
« Reply #44 on: May 26, 2008, 21:54:44 »

cheating possibilities inclusive... take out or highly rework the ranking system and give us the object editor!

Racing huge container vessels is what you will get if the object editor is released without any restrictions. Judging by the amount of reports we get on multiplayer (MP) misbehaviour, I am pretty sure that we will see the Latitude with powerboat-dynamics. Lights, waves, missions... people have found a way of manipulating much content already. There will be no realism left in MP if this editor is released. For the egos it will be great - for those who want a realistic simulator it will be a disaster.

1st person shooter games does not come with an editor. The developers made the characters with certain characteristics and the game is build on those conditions. If you were able to edit that data, you would of cause turn your characters into supermen (especially if you are to use them in MP!) making the game too easy and ridiculous.

The same pattern applies to SS. Vessels are made to behave a certain way and letting everyone edit their behavior, would make the simulator ridiculous in my eyes.  :-\

Regards
groennegaard
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ACR

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Re: are you joking with us?
« Reply #45 on: May 26, 2008, 22:25:45 »



The same pattern applies to SS. Vessels are made to behave a certain way and letting everyone edit their behavior, would make the simulator ridiculous in my eyes.  :-\

Regards
groennegaard

yes, and with the current system what dou you call it now? ship performance (also affecting of course the times) seems to grow with CPU and graphic card performance, irrealisitc fast high score cheat times were discussed...

there are many simulation games where an editor is available or at least data is editable and they have MP, it seems to work. of course you will have some peace busters in MP, but you now have them also.

and shipsimulator ist not a 1st person shooter or pinball game ...

the highscore is useless without or with the editor. do not only think about some dumbs, thinks about the huge community with their massive potential really improving the ship dynamics-absolutely for free.

for the peace in harbor at MP and simulatany a massive chance for shipsim vstep should think about something which "signs" edited objects and the mp accepts only "unsigned", so original files.

i personally would never go online with a speedboat-vermaas since the joy to do this in a SHIP SIMULATION is nil.

and the thruth is- giving highscores for fastest times at a SHIP SIMUALTION only put out the motivation of some cheaters how to cheat the game.

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TerryRussell

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Re: are you joking with us?
« Reply #46 on: May 26, 2008, 22:38:18 »

Hi groennegaard.

ACR does make some good points there.

On the one hand, I do understand why Vstep don't want to enable users to edit the configurations and so on, but compare with MS Train Simulator where absolutely everything can be edited. Users simply do not have supersonic trains. They work against timetables that require on-time accuracy and appropriate fuel consumption and so on.

But they don't have "fastest times" or "rankings" to compete for, so perhaps there is no interest in arcarde style playing. I think it is also a very different type of user base.

On the other hand, personally I would love to be able to access the configuration files, but only so that I could make meaningful changes for use by others. But I know this is a dream, and I respect Vstep's right to encrypt and protect if they wish.

Dreaming session over.  ;)
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Captain Darling

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Re: are you joking with us?
« Reply #47 on: May 26, 2008, 22:51:36 »

Racing huge container vessels is what you will get if the object editor is released without any restrictions. Judging by the amount of reports we get on multiplayer (MP) misbehaviour, I am pretty sure that we will see the Latitude with powerboat-dynamics. Lights, waves, missions... people have found a way of manipulating much content already. There will be no realism left in MP if this editor is released. For the egos it will be great - for those who want a realistic simulator it will be a disaster.

1st person shooter games does not come with an editor. The developers made the characters with certain characteristics and the game is build on those conditions. If you were able to edit that data, you would of cause turn your characters into supermen (especially if you are to use them in MP!) making the game too easy and ridiculous.

The same pattern applies to SS. Vessels are made to behave a certain way and letting everyone edit their behavior, would make the simulator ridiculous in my eyes.  :-\

Regards
groennegaard
I hope Vstep don't release a code editor..

I know people would like to see and change some of the code, but i think it would be better if Vstep didn't release a editor to change the code..

I think the way forward is a ship editor/maker and a enviroment editor/maker and when you're finshed making the ship/enviroment you have the choice to upload it like a mission where it can be available for download...
But like the mission editor, you cannot edit the default eviroments which came with the game..

I just don't think the main code should be changed.. :-\

Just my opinion ;)
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Regards,
James

groennegaard

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Re: are you joking with us?
« Reply #48 on: May 26, 2008, 23:21:04 »

Free open source software eh?  :) Perhaps we should start working on our own simulator? Then we'll get it exactly the way we want it...  :P

Anyway, I didn't say that SS was a 1st person shooter game (I don't know why a sign of equation was put in there), only that the same pattern of non-editable objects was applied to both. Their configuration is part of the package.

Highscores weren't a part of my argumentation.

I do not question ACR's good intentions with improving the dynamics, but I know that there will be someone racing around in powerboat-Vermaas' if the editor is released. Two separate sets of dynamics, one for single play and one for MP which isn't editable, may be the solution to that problem, but I don't think that will happen with SS08. We are then looking at a future release then.

If you really want to help improving the dynamics, you can start posting sea trial reports here on the forum. If you have access to a report from a HSC similar to Red Jet 4, that would be really interesting... :)

Regards
groennegaard
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TerryRussell

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Re: are you joking with us?
« Reply #49 on: May 26, 2008, 23:35:26 »

Free open source software eh?  :) Perhaps we should start working on our own simulator? Then we'll get it exactly the way we want it...  :P

That's what has happened with MS Train Simulator. The MSTS-bin project is doing exactly that, fixing bugs at first and now adding new features..

But that's for a totally different commercial situation. Microsoft abandoned MSTS and the community picked it up without any help from them or Kuju, the original developers.

Ship Simulator can't be compared to this sitation, I think.

As I said, just dreams. I understand and respect Vsteps reasoning for encryption. I wish it was different, but that's life. And now, back to "Where's V1.4.1 gone?" questions.  ;D
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