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Author Topic: are you joking with us?  (Read 23452 times)

ACR

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are you joking with us?
« on: May 22, 2008, 17:45:12 »

just installed 1.41 with NH and made some testdrives. espacially i was surprized if the top speeds of the vessels will be corrected like largely discussed and promised...

well i started with the redjet4 and saw her topping 45kts in calm seas now. the corrected azimuths at the ocean star let her now acclerates at full power from a full stop like a virtual sports boat and not a nearly 300meter cruise ship, similar to the agile solution. i did not check the tops speeds there, just quick closed the programm before getting more frustrated.

for what do we post bugs and discuss this widely here? for what?  >:(
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NathanC

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Re: are you joking with us?
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2008, 17:46:34 »

The real Red Jet top speed is 45kn..........
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Aidablu

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Re: are you joking with us?
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2008, 17:50:05 »

Wasn't the horn sound supossed to be fixed also with this new update (I don't have NH) i was told by many when the new update was here the horn sound will be fixed BUT i still have NO Hornsounds on the addon 2006 ships.  why  ??? ??? ???
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ACR

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Re: are you joking with us?
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2008, 17:52:51 »

http://www2.redfunnel.co.uk/library/pdfs/ferry-travel/red_jet_fact_sheets.pdf

service speed 35kts. at factory trials in australia the no loaded ships reached 41kts , of course this is not reachable in every day business with passengers load .
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Lanedre

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Re: are you joking with us?
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2008, 18:02:40 »

the corrected azimuths at the ocean star let her now acclerates at full power from a full stop like a virtual sports boat and not a nearly 300meter cruise ship, similar to the agile solution. i did not check the tops speeds there, just quick closed the programm before getting more frustrated.
I got a top speed with the Agile Solution at about 17knots.And when walking around the ship it is possible to "fly" a little bit up in the air,but not much.
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groennegaard

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Re: are you joking with us?
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2008, 18:03:00 »

http://www2.redfunnel.co.uk/library/pdfs/ferry-travel/red_jet_fact_sheets.pdf

service speed 35kts. at factory trials in australia the no loaded ships reached 41kts , of course this is not reachable in every day business with passengers load .

Well, when I wall around the ship I only see empty seats - do you see any passengers?  8)

Regards
groennegaard
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ACR

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Re: are you joking with us?
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2008, 18:05:06 »

Well, when I wall around the ship I only see empty seats - do you see any passengers?  8)

Regards
groennegaard

no. but instead of this i see 4 kts above the factory trial.  8)
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groennegaard

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Re: are you joking with us?
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2008, 18:16:01 »

4 knots for free!  :o I never heard of any companies putting in claims for extra knots...  8)
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ACR

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Re: are you joking with us?
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2008, 19:29:26 »

yeah, you are then of course free to enjoy the the unrealsitic supersonic race-simulator  ;D

lets make her go 1000kts for real time challenges, bith a batman logo infront  ;)
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groennegaard

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Re: are you joking with us?
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2008, 20:47:50 »

I agree that the model's speed doesn't match the real Red Jet 4. But I don't think that a +10% speed increase makes the simulator totally unrealistic and more like a race game for PS2. It is in fact realistic for a HSC to go 45 knots.  :)

Regards
groennegaard
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TerryRussell

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Re: are you joking with us?
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2008, 23:05:39 »

Amazing, isn't it? Another set of free improvements (and some bug fixes) from Vstep, and the rivet-counters are complaining already...

When the free horns and radio sounds come out, no doubt the same set of people will be making comments like "This horn isn't exactly the same as on the real ship!" or "That set of radio sounds is wrong when I'm in Phi Phi"....
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ACR

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Re: are you joking with us?
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2008, 23:12:19 »

@groennegard

but i fail too see why vstep cannot set real and freely known values. c,mon, setting a correct speed cannot be this big deal. especially when it was pointed out often and so known. there was also the statement that it will be reported and corrected...

and btw. few commercial HSC go 45kts since for your mentioned 10% of speed increase you need 40% of power increase. and especially at short trips like the red jet4 does the small travel time advantage would simply not catch up the machinery and fuel costs.
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groennegaard

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Re: are you joking with us?
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2008, 00:53:26 »

If you change the top speed for the model, you will have to adjust a long list of other variables as well, to maintain the HSC behavior. It isn't as simple as putting in 41 instead of 45. It would take weeks of work, and personally, I would rather see VSTEP investing that time in developing SS2009. All the models may have to be ajusted to fit the new version, so I believe that it would be waste of time trying to fix that 10% difference now, when they have to do it again within a year. You would hardly feel a difference.

Regards
groennegaard
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ACR

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Re: are you joking with us?
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2008, 10:29:26 »

well, since all files are coded so we cannot see in, its hard to give any comment how difficult it is. it is at least possible when we look at the fairmount sherpa e.g.

sad enough that we have now v1.41 and discuss about a thing which should be ok in v1.0 (and at some ship its ok since this) .

i think you will agree that the behauvior so or so not perfect according to a hsc so having at least real performance values could add a little to the overall realism. i also cannot imagine why it shall be that hard. lower speed , little lower accleration , basicly thats it.

and i respectfully disagree that you will not feel the diference. especially we talk here about 41kts real trial speed and not service speed. you correctly mentioned that there aren,t visible passengers on board , but looking at the missions and the whole spirit of this game, everyday business of the ships is played here, not trail factory tests. so the most reliable value for the redjet4 would be to set a top speed in the region of 37kt for travel speed of about 34-35. thats how the real thing works everyday.

and truly- 37kt versus 45kt IS visible, at least for me.

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groennegaard

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Re: are you joking with us?
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2008, 11:14:32 »

As I mentioned before, the process isn't just matter of lowering speed and accereration. I won't explain the object editor in details, but many other factors will have to be adjusted as well. For instance, ROT. The model has a certain max ROT, a certain ROT build-up and ease off, that may be fair now, but these values will all be lost if you change the speed. These values will also have to be adjusted, tested, then adjusted again, tested again and so on, until you are happy with the result. That may take weeks of work and there are many other values to consider than those I've mentioned.

It may be 41 knots as well as 38 knots, we don't really know because we don't know whether the model is based on fully loaded or ballast condition (or anything in between)

I'm not saying that you are wrong in any way, I only try to give you some reasonable reason as to why the speed hasn't been changed.  :)

Regards
groennegaard
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ACR

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Re: are you joking with us?
« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2008, 19:45:20 »

ok, thanks for the explanation.

well, in other maritim games (e.g silent hunter) i can change basic data like speed with available editors. when i mess up i have an backup or when not i can have the luck to reinstall the entire package. so when i want to tweak such values i do not need to continue endless threads, i can just do it. here we can do nothing. the big fear of looking in any game files, and the warnings to loose any support right altering the most little thing gives us customers only the chance to report here and hope or imrpovement. but nothing happens.

you tell me that its better that they put the effort for correct it in ss09.... wow. who can confirm that its really corrected? and what when not? i can also just write here and hear from you that there are more important things....

well maybe there are more improtant things, but these things are often also not done (more real waves e.g) and
so at least i hoped for the "little" things.

when even such basic performance data are not correct and when you cannot fix this on one hand on on the other hand you lock any change to try it by ourselves- well its somekind a shame to call it ship simulator.

call it better water-game. and i,m sure its the same waste of time i write it now like it was i wrote before the patch, simply because nothing will happen.

its not an offence here from me, its just frustration because the idea creating shipsim was very good, the politics dealing with the product and the customers is not.






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TerryRussell

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Re: are you joking with us?
« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2008, 20:40:37 »

You say "other hand you lock any change". I don't think that groennegaard is doing these things.

I'm not disagreeing that it would be good to able to reconfirgure things and add my own ships and even my own environments. I have been doing that for Train Simulator for many years, and the modelling for that is at least as complex as in Ship Simulator.

Because of this ability to configure and create, Train Simulator still has a massive following, many years after Microsoft walked away from it (we even reprogram the executable files to fix the bugs in the program ourselves...)

But Vstep want to play it closer to their chest. Personally I think they're wrong but that's their response to a business risk and they have every right to take that decision, of course.
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Aidablu

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Re: are you joking with us?
« Reply #17 on: May 23, 2008, 21:13:02 »

Wasn't the horn sound supossed to be fixed also with this new update (I don't have NH) i was told by many when the new update was here the horn sound will be fixed BUT i still have NO Hornsounds on the addon 2006 ships.  why  ??? ??? ???

HI i quote my own question sense no one has answerd on it i hope you can or will please.
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Captain Darling

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Re: are you joking with us?
« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2008, 21:18:13 »

Wasn't the horn sound supossed to be fixed also with this new update (I don't have NH) i was told by many when the new update was here the horn sound will be fixed BUT i still have NO Hornsounds on the addon 2006 ships.  why  ??? ??? ???
Don't think so ;) I think Terry and Mad_Fred is doing a horn addon or something, but not certain ;)
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Regards,
James

TerryRussell

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Re: are you joking with us?
« Reply #19 on: May 23, 2008, 21:33:22 »

Hi.

I think I know the answer.

If you have the 2006=>2008 Add-On (it took the 2006 Add-on Ships and made them work in 2008), then the horns won't work. Even if you apply V1.4.1 they won't work. That's because of a difference in the 2006 & 2008 horn systems.

But, if you install New Horizons, these Add-on ships have working horns.


If you then install the horn and radio add-ons, they are excellent horns (and radios).

I understand that the add-ons should be released soon after V1.4.1. I don't have an actual date, but it was hinted that it would be within a couple of weeks.
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ACR

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Re: are you joking with us?
« Reply #20 on: May 23, 2008, 21:36:37 »


I'm not disagreeing that it would be good to able to reconfirgure things and add my own ships and even my own environments. I have been doing that for Train Simulator for many years, and the modelling for that is at least as complex as in Ship Simulator.

Because of this ability to configure and create, Train Simulator still has a massive following, many years after Microsoft walked away from it (we even reprogram the executable files to fix the bugs in the program ourselves...)

But Vstep want to play it closer to their chest. Personally I think they're wrong but that's their response to a business risk and they have every right to take that decision, of course.

i absolutely agree with you terry. i think vstep,s shipsimulator is history in 2-3 years, like trainsimulator would be since a long time when they would play it that way.

i fully respect their way to play that businness, but i cannot appretiate that when they decide to give no chance for editing values, they simulatany are not able to do it for us and above this we can post here what we want with no results for our demands. i,m pretty sure its full speed in a blind alley this way.

and of course i realize that groennegaard is just a forum moderator and has nothing in common with the vstep business and the decisions how to deal this business. thats why i absolutly do not claim it is his fault.
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Mad Bossy

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Re: are you joking with us?
« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2008, 21:40:17 »

And does VSTEP really that believe it in the present situation one more market for the SS09 / 10 will give???

JHB

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Re: are you joking with us?
« Reply #22 on: May 23, 2008, 21:50:10 »

Do we know VSTEP's market situation? Well...I bet they will not share such information :P
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Mad Bossy

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Re: are you joking with us?
« Reply #23 on: May 23, 2008, 22:02:52 »

I do not know like, however, the situation in other ländern is in the German area quite thick air rules. A large part of the users has so slowly enough from what VSTEP with them floats.

groennegaard

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Re: are you joking with us?
« Reply #24 on: May 24, 2008, 08:47:20 »

you tell me that its better that they put the effort for correct it in ss09.... wow. who can confirm that its really corrected? and what when not? i can also just write here and hear from you that there are more important things....

Well, here are some more facts:
- I have helped VSTEP improving the dynamics of PoR so I have actually worked with the editor. I believe it took med 3-4 weeks of work, to get is as real as it gets, but it still isn't perfect. Those improvements were ready mid April but haven't been released yet. I can't tell you why the update wasn't included in the 1.4.1.

- VSTEP wants to improve the dynamics engine for SS09. I can't say how comprehensive those improvements will be, but I imagine that most model setups have to be redone. That is why I believe that it would be better to invest that time in the SS09 models rather than adjusting details for SS08.

- A release of the editor has been considered and I don't know why it hasn't been released, but I can imagine that it will mess up highscores (who cares anyway? - it's a simulator not a race game) and MP wouldn't be the same if you have huge container vessels acting like small speed yachts...



I think that we all agree on that we want to see a more polished release next time. More research, more testing, less bugs and of cause a reliable dynamics engine that considers wind, current, hull resistance so that the dynamics editor will only edit the simplest parameters... but this isn't the case yet. Frustrating? Yes. A joke? No.

Regards
groennegaard

EDIT: The updated version of PoR came with v1.4.2  ;)
« Last Edit: May 30, 2008, 21:13:13 by groennegaard »
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