Where is the maritime tribunal?

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

[charybds]

Every other vessel in this simulation is skippered by something dead!

when I am 2 tugging Vermaas out of her berth and into the shipping channel
(on the correct side of the channel I might add)

The captain of some bulk loader (oriental princess I think) lines up the stern of Vermaas ..
and rams it neatly dead center of the transom.

Surely there could be some attempt at AI and collision avoidance in this so called Simulation.
Avoiding ships spearing into you (who are in fact give way vessels) when you are constrained to a couple of knots
is just plain dumb and not in the least bit realistic.
Any skipper not actively perpetrating an act of terrorism would make some attempt to obey the rules of the road and avoid a collision .. and yet other ships in this 'simulation' do not ..

.. what can I say ..?

[Bottman]

To answer your very first question: in Hamburg!

[danny]

Unfortunatly the Ai follow a pre-defined path, and although they can veiry that path to an extent, they can't avoid the player. Even if Vstep could find a reliable way to add player avoidance (without turning hard into the dock, or overshooting) then the demand on the computer would sky-rocket. And anyway, shouldn't you have pulled the vermaas out just far enough into the main channel so she could get underway, but without impeeding other traffic following the shipping lane?
Its also worth noting that although SSE is called a "simulation" its more of a casual simulation, so not everything is going to be 100% accurate.
And remember, in real life your going to meet that one boat skipper that needs everyone else to think for him, because he's to busy staring at the pretty women stood on the forcastle of his yatch 

[charybds]

I learned my skills on Sydney Harbor even the drunken retards out of cockle bay late at night don't ram stuff the size of an office block ..

MANY MANY other games manage to get their AI to interact with changing environments .. it's not rocket science by any stretch of the imagination.

Coupled with flawed controls, poor physics and a raft (lol) of other problems this 'simulation' is just a fine example of badly designed code.

I wish I'd left my credit card in my pocket .. first time I ever payed to play an early beta ..

[danny]

Charybds, Can I offer you some advise? Watch your laungage!
Have you actually tried to program AI to interact with a changing dynamic eviroment whilst also trying to make it follow a pre-defined route? Its alot harder than it sounds.

[Ballast]

I agree in someway that there is a lack of AI but there is one thing you can't learn the AI and that is good seamanship. Every situation is differently with alot of variables and also asks for a different solution. You can't just say "if ship X has a CPA/TCPA less then 0.5'/10min with ship Y, alter course to bearing + 10 degrees". What will the new situation will be? Will there be a risk of collision with another ship? Will the ship run aground?

The only reason why I, and many with me, still have a job on a ship, is because you can't program good seamanship into a computer and that you need a human to make the decisions according the COLREGS and good seamanship.

In SS08 they adjusted the AI where they would just hold short in the water like a dead fish if they would come too close to a player ship. That wasn't also the best solution because, oddly, the AI would hold short on the only short where you don't want them 

[Traddles]

Quote from charybds:-
MANY MANY other games manage to get their AI to interact with changing environments .. it's not rocket science by any stretch of the imagination. Unquote.

We would all really like to know these terrific games. If it's not rocket science do tell us how to do it. By the way, I am not part of Vstep, just in case you get that wrong too.
 
Purely as a matter of interest, I just replayed the core mission "Dual tow". As any experienced Master & pilot would do, I kept such a very large containership to mid channel. (Perfectly normal ) No ships collided with my ship, as they too, kept well clear of such a vessel manoevring. Having cleared Kaiser Wilhelm Hafen into the main river I increased speed to 5.8 knots with no problem of "Vermaas" trying to overtake me. The mission completed in 1h20m, again I would say, about par for the course, even if "Vermaas" had power on her engines. There is no way any proper seaman would try to shift such a large ship in confined waters at any kind of speed. And, yes, please check my signature, I do have just a little experience. Again, as a matter of interest, "Oriental Blackbird" is a small heavy lift ship not a bulker.

Regards,
Traddles.

[Stuart2007]

Angus,

I agree totally with him on the AI front. Even going back to 3d shootemups such as Doom and Quake had sufficient basic AI to respond to you. Now go onto MSFS and see how the Cessnas race off the runway when I come screaming towards them in a 777 (with damage set to OFF).

As for other comments that sugges, albeit tongue in cheek, that lack of AI prepares you for dodgy real life sailors. There surely aren't many skippers in command of something the size of Emma Maersk who ram floating office blocks too frequently.

Either way on the technicalities, this game is pretty poor quality. I do not accept this super sophisticated game engine is the real reason for making it so damned hard to put right. I think it is just down to the developers not thinking what they are doing and planning from day one. I hope the rest of their stuff is of a better quality as the commercial world will not put up with such sub standard stuff.

[Ballast]

I spend a lot of time practising on professional high end ship simulators during my time at the nautical college, but even there the AI ships were controlled by the instructor with a simple course/speed control due to the fact there are too much variables for the computer to make a decision according good seamanship and the collision regulations. A simple course alteration in a congested traffic seperation scheme like Dover strait can be a domino effect. It's not just one ship, it can have effect on more ships in your vicinity and every ship has to make a new move to keep clear of other ships.

With that in mind, the AI in a 3D shooter is much more simple. I still agree that the AI, and many other things, are still on the downside in the game, but having AI that complies with good seamanship and the colreg in the best possible way would require a hell of computer and something more then a 40 euro piece of software.

[Stuart2007]

Oh that's true, Ballast. But SOME attempt should have been made. This is plain silly. A simplified version of colregs could have been introduced. It's not like the full Dover Straits traffic is being modelled at the same time...

[sydmichel]

 A simple course alteration in a congested traffic seperation scheme like Dover strait can be a domino effect. It's not just one ship, it can have effect on more ships in your vicinity and every ship has to make a new move to keep clear of other ships.

Ordinarilly, I would agree.  However, This is SSE not SS208 and we are lucky if we get more than 2 AI vessels at any 1 time per environment. so having said that, controlling a couple of AI ships in response to your own actions should not be as difficult as some make out.  Mind you, I´m not a games programmer and therefore not aware of the difficulties (so i´ve proberbly killed my own argument)

[Traddles]

As Menno points out, in professional maritme simulators the "other ships" (AI) are under the control of an instructor. Even such very expensive software cannot do what is being asked for here. Ships, even quite small ones do not have brakes, and VLCCs for example take up to 3 miles to come to a stop. As a ship slows down its steering becomes less and less effective too. To replicate this for AI traffic would require software which can "Think". This has not been achievable as yet, least of all for gaming software at the price of SSE, to my limited knowledge. Avoiding AI traffic by own ship is of course possible, but to do this one has, at times, to flout the rules. A final tongue-in-cheek point. In reality ships DO smash into each other and into quaysides and wharves.
I was in Georgetown, (British Guiana as it was then) some time ago when our Royal Yacht "Britannia" arrived on a visit. Her RN Commander thought he was smart enough to handle the Demerara river without a pilot. Guess what happened? In trying to swing to stem the fast flowing incoming tide, he misjudged the move and slammed into the wharf, which was made of greenheart timbers. Away went a large chunk of the wharf which of course had to be paid for by British taxpayers.
Regards,
Angus.

[danny]

I've looked into this Ai thing a little deeper, to try and come up with a method (as i'm developing my own non-sailing related sim soon [or atleast thinking of developing one])
I think the easiest way to go about A Ai that will avoid you is to have the player ships surrounded by a "bubble", this "bubble" would act like a no-go zone, If the Ai was going to enter this "bubble" according to there present course/speed then the computer would plot a course change, of say 30 degrees until the Ai vessel was no longer in danger of colliding with this "bubble". once the computer had deamed that the Ai vessel was clear then the Ai would swing back onto course, and everything would be happy again.
Weither this method would work in pratice or not i don't know.

[mvsmith]

But SOME attempt should have been made.

Some attempt has been made in SSE—as an observant person who actually uses SSE, as opposed to a troll, would know.
AI ships operate in a very different manner from those in ’08. They do not follow drawn tracks, but run under autopilot toward a specified goal.
They avoid objects in their path, to the extent possible within the capability of the computational power available, and the surrounding environment.
Even this modest improvement comes at a considerable cost in performance (frame rate).

Any person who pretends to comment knowledgably should first spend some time with the editor learning how AI is implemented and exploring its actual behavior in various situations.

[Stuart2007]

Oh marty, I'm disappointed with you. Calling me a troll when I've been here for 4 and a bit years and was once very happy with shipsim.

It's a shame we can't all be as clued up as you, marty. But still I'm sure that all of us who criticise sse must be wrong and you alone are correct.

I could go on about you marty, but quite frankly I'd rather talk to the wall.

[Ballast]

No need to go there guys. Lets keep it clean

[sadsid (†2016)]

Post removed lets not go there please
                                                        Eric

[Captain Cadet]

Charybds, Can I offer you some advise? Watch your laungage!
Have you actually tried to program AI to interact with a changing dynamic eviroment whilst also trying to make it follow a pre-defined route? Its alot harder than it sounds.

im working on a computer game and it taken 2-3 hours to make a basic computer game
it takes a long time for a AI to work.
also it will need a lot of software demand.
to do this you may have to wait 5 years ( i was going to say 20 but remeberd how quick computers are changing) before it may happen 

[wiqvist]

One thing I wonder a bit about, according to this thread.

When this game was new(about a year ago), many persons complained that the game was boring with so little ai traffic. The answer from moderators was something else than it is now days. A year ago was the answer a bit different, also the behvavior of the ai-traffic.
The reason a year ago was that Vstep have removed most ai-traffic from the game so most persons could play it, cause if they had put as much ai-traffic as in SS2006 and ss 2008 so should only them with the most powerful mashine play the game.

Then came an update(patch), where there were ai-ships to free-roam, and this ships behaved very different from real ships if I express it in a moderate way. And this was the same for them with powrerful mashines and them with not so powerful computers.

So not much have changed during the year the game have been out, accoring this. The only things which have changed is the reason why the ai-traffic is not there and the few ones which is there behave like they do.

And yes there is other games which also have bad ai behavior, but there is also many games with realy good ai behavior. And I say as I did a year ago, if Vstep was my company so should I try to compare my products with them who are doing the best games, not with them who is doing "bad" products.

[Ballast]

@Wiqvist;

As Menno points out, in professional maritme simulators the "other ships" (AI) are under the control of an instructor. Even such very expensive software cannot do what is being asked for here. Ships, even quite small ones do not have brakes, and VLCCs for example take up to 3 miles to come to a stop. As a ship slows down its steering becomes less and less effective too. To replicate this for AI traffic would require software which can "Think". This has not been achievable as yet, least of all for gaming software at the price of SSE, to my limited knowledge.

With that in mind, the AI in a 3D shooter is much more simple. I still agree that the AI, and many other things, are still on the downside in the game, but having AI that complies with good seamanship and the colreg in the best possible way would require a hell of computer and something more then a 40 euro piece of software.

[wiqvist]

Ballast, sorry, but I do not understand your answer to my post.

What about nearly all car and truck games, the other vehicle do not ram you. In Codemasters F1 2010 so do not the other F1 cars try to ram you, even if they do not need to do much when the car is moving in over 300 km/h. And what about all soccer and hockey games, the other players do not run around and ram your figure or any other. In the sailing simulator so does not the other boats try to ram you, they can get disqualified then of cource. That just some games where the game engin controle other persons/vehicles, and they would never have existed if they have behvaed like this game. Who would buy a soccer game where the other players run around and knok each other out. But in this game it seem like we have to accept it. And what about the aircraft in Microsofts flightsimulator, on big airports with lots of traffic on the runways so do all plane stop and let others throw, and if you have flight following you are warmed when you are close to anoter aircraft. In the Vehicle simulator so is there a warning horn, that could be an easy solution until something better comes up.

[wiqvist]

Now I got what the word "Extreme" represent in the title of this game.
It must mean:
 "Etreme" few things on a ship is simulated.

[Ballast]

Ah yes, sorry about that. I was on my phone and copy/pasting quotes isn't the easiest thing to do on a touchscreen phone.. 

It was a reply to your comment about the mods changing the arguments for not having a proper AI. Mind you, that we are not on the payroll, but we are just volunteers for the game who have a big heart (perhaps a bit too big) for the game. We try to act as a link between the community and VSTEP. 

[wiqvist]

Ballast, no problem, hehe.

But, sorry, I still do not get what you are trying to tell me with it. I am fully aware of that moderators are not Vstep employers and that you are doing this mostly for free.
You say here that moderators should be a sort of link between Vstep and customers/members. Does that ment that represents of Vstep have told you moderators why the "Ai-traffic" behvave like they do? And is it them who have changed the reason why ai-traffic behave like they do?

If it is like this, I think Vstep have created this in a smart way. They do misstakes and they let you who are volunteers take the complaints about their product, smart buisness behaving. But only for short thinking terms, a strategy which kills it self. Vstep refer to the forum for support of the game, there is not even a phonenumber you can call. I would gladly volunteer to become a beta tester for this program(some the game seems to need), but I would not consider to become a moderator of this forum. So it is of cource great that it is persons like you. And I honestly hope that this can be discussed in a proper way.

[sadsid (†2016)]

Hi wiqvist
Moderators are the same as members we do not get more information from V-Step
we get it the same as you do when Steven or Frank release it on here.
                                                                                                          Eric