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Ship Simulator > English forum > Small talk > Bow rudder
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Author Topic: Bow rudder  (Read 6636 times)

saltydog

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Bow rudder
« on: September 16, 2009, 15:55:53 »
A small question: have there ever been ships with an (extra) bow rudder..?
I can't find anything about it on the web..
Perhaps a bow rudder would put too much strain on the ship structure..?
« Last Edit: September 16, 2009, 16:34:05 by saltydog »
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Wave Music

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Re: Bow rudder
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2009, 15:59:02 »
I think it's mostly on a double-end ferries...

Here's one of those with a bow rudder (& propeller):

http://www.hhvferry.com/sofeorigga.html
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saltydog

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Re: Bow rudder
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2009, 16:10:36 »
Thanks WM, it makes sense on a ferry with bow-prop..But why not on ocean liners for instance..?
With a bow rudder maybe Titanic could have avoided that iceberg ..
« Last Edit: September 16, 2009, 16:25:02 by saltydog »
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IRI5HJ4CK

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Re: Bow rudder
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2009, 16:37:19 »
Quote from: saltydog on September 16, 2009, 15:55:53
A small question: have there ever been ships with an (extra) bow rudder..?
I can't find anything about it on the web..
Perhaps a bow rudder would put too much strain on the ship structure..?

Hi SD,

I've seen a few photo's of ferries with Bow Rudders...Last year I was at the model boating show, and there was a model on display with a bow rudder. I'll try find the picture I took of it!

Jack.
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Kind Regards,
Jack.

The Ferry Man

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Re: Bow rudder
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2009, 16:44:16 »
The Pride of Dover/Calais have bow thrusters. They are used when moving astern. They usually revsre out of the hrabour and then swing round, before going forwards.

The Oleander/Pride of Bruges and Pride of Kent also Bow rudders.

None are double ended.

Not used now so much because of the bulbous bow is more fuel efficient

 ;D
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saltydog

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Re: Bow rudder
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2009, 16:47:49 »
Thanks for the replies, I'm sure there are many ferries with bow rudders..
I was wondering about other ships, such as ocean liners or cargo ships..
Why was the idea of a bow rudder never applied to "normal" vessels..?
« Last Edit: September 16, 2009, 16:51:03 by saltydog »
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The Ferry Man

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Re: Bow rudder
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2009, 16:52:54 »
Not sure.

I doubt they would really be useful on liners or Tankers. I don;'t think they provide as much turning ability as a stern rudder.

Besides they costs about a knot through efficiency
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Wave Music

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Re: Bow rudder
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2009, 16:53:01 »
For your reading pleasure  ;D

Here (http://books.google.ru/books?id=Rxzkua5bUGgC&pg=PA204&lpg=PA204&dq=bow%2Brudder%2Bship&source=bl&ots=a-ZuQd7CdZ&sig=E4dK3wzpNHkAKXdQ6nJDPrZCasY&hl=ru&ei=nAexSqP_DYTmnAPA0LQW&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7#v=onepage&q=bow%2Brudder%2Bship&f=false) & there (http://books.google.ru/books?id=kZllVZJczXwC&pg=PA554&lpg=PA554&dq=bow%2Brudder%2Bship&source=bl&ots=Q9McL2bxWK&sig=5mp0y7RQmI-ibXy5fcrqC_ufeZo&hl=ru&ei=nAexSqP_DYTmnAPA0LQW&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4#v=onepage&q=bow%2Brudder%2Bship&f=false)
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The Ferry Man

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Re: Bow rudder
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2009, 17:00:34 »
Quote from: Wave Music on September 16, 2009, 16:53:01
For your reading pleasure  ;D

Here (http://books.google.ru/books?id=Rxzkua5bUGgC&pg=PA204&lpg=PA204&dq=bow%2Brudder%2Bship&source=bl&ots=a-ZuQd7CdZ&sig=E4dK3wzpNHkAKXdQ6nJDPrZCasY&hl=ru&ei=nAexSqP_DYTmnAPA0LQW&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7#v=onepage&q=bow%2Brudder%2Bship&f=false) & there (http://books.google.ru/books?id=kZllVZJczXwC&pg=PA554&lpg=PA554&dq=bow%2Brudder%2Bship&source=bl&ots=Q9McL2bxWK&sig=5mp0y7RQmI-ibXy5fcrqC_ufeZo&hl=ru&ei=nAexSqP_DYTmnAPA0LQW&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4#v=onepage&q=bow%2Brudder%2Bship&f=false)

Nice book added to Amazon wishlist...  ;D
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saltydog

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Re: Bow rudder
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2009, 17:06:14 »
Sounds convincing, saves me running to the Patent Office to put forward my Grand Idea.. ;D
Still..it would be fun to try such a ship in ShipSim..(and I still think Titanic could have made it then)
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The Ferry Man

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Re: Bow rudder
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2009, 17:13:42 »
Quote from: saltydog on September 16, 2009, 17:06:14
Sounds convincing, saves me running to the Patent Office to put forward my Grand Idea.. ;D
Still..it would be fun to try such a ship in ShipSim..(and I still think Titanic could have made it then)

I think they only really work going astern...
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Agent|Austin

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Re: Bow rudder
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2009, 17:44:37 »
All the washington state ferries have props & rudders at each end.

"As of 2007, there are 28 ferries on Puget Sound operated by the state.[4] The largest vessels in this fleet carry up to 2500 passengers and 202 vehicles. They are painted in a distinctive white and green trim paint scheme, and feature double-ended open vehicle decks and bridges at each end so that they don't need to turn around."
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Ballast

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Re: Bow rudder
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2009, 18:50:18 »
I sailed on a container barge that was fitted with a bowthruster and a bowrudder. The bow rudder was retracteble with an hydraulic system. A bow rudder is really handy when you are sailing with 3 layers of containers on deck and a lot of wind. With the bow rudder you can keep the ship better on course. I believe the maximum rudder angle was about 25 or 30 degrees.

Bow rudders only work when the vessel is making speed through the water, otherwise they are useless.

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Ballast

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Re: Bow rudder
« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2009, 19:01:31 »


Here you can see the bow rudder in 'operation position', the hydraulic unit is next right of it. On the left you can see the bow thruster engine.
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saltydog

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Re: Bow rudder
« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2009, 19:09:11 »
Thanks Ballast, I had a feeling there had to be ships out there with bow rudders.. :)
I can imagine a bow rudder would help in heavy wind..
« Last Edit: September 16, 2009, 19:30:37 by saltydog »
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Ballast

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Re: Bow rudder
« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2009, 19:49:20 »
Back in the days - pre-bowthruster - a bow rudder was pretty common on barges. My grandfather's dry cargo barge also had a bow rudder, it was only controllable on the fore deck with a helm connected to it. The handraulic way  :P
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Dave M

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Re: Bow rudder
« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2009, 19:57:24 »
Hi Saltydog,
I didn't know that bow rudders were still in use.
Back in the 1960s I worked on the Isle Of Wight ferries running from Portsmouth harbour to Ryde. In the summer we used to use a paddle steamer for Solent cruises and peak time relief on the regular run. That had a bow rudder, the reason for it was that when the paddle steamer went astern the stern rudder couldn't steer the vessel. When she was going ahead the bow rudder had to be locked in place, it didn't have hydraulics of any kind and wasn't retractable. The wheel was actually in the bows and was about 5 feet in diameter.

Regards, Dave
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saltydog

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Re: Bow rudder
« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2009, 20:14:03 »
Hi Dave, from what I gather, bow rudders are (were) fairly common on ferries and such..
Ballast's response was the first time I heard of one on a cargo/container ship..
Now it seems they were also used on some paddle steamers.. :)
« Last Edit: September 16, 2009, 20:24:30 by saltydog »
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Stuart2007

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Re: Bow rudder
« Reply #18 on: September 16, 2009, 23:00:20 »
Quote from: Wave Music on September 16, 2009, 15:59:02
I think it's mostly on a double-end ferries...

Here's one of those with a bow rudder (& propeller):

http://www.hhvferry.com/sofeorigga.html

FYI: The plans state the ship was POST stretching. They aren't- they are PRE... (not relevant to the bow rudder anyway)
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Wave Music

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Re: Bow rudder
« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2009, 23:02:29 »
Quote from: Stuart2007 on September 16, 2009, 23:00:20
FYI: The plans state the ship was POST stretching. They aren't- they are PRE... (not relevant to the bow rudder anyway)

Among all posts in this topic I knew that you will reply exactly on mine!
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Dave M

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Re: Bow rudder
« Reply #20 on: September 17, 2009, 00:05:52 »
Quote from: Wave Music on September 16, 2009, 23:02:29
Among all posts in this topic I knew that you will reply exactly on mine!
Hi Wave Music,
Looking at the plans that you pointed at, I would say that this probably is a 'Bow Rudder' in the sense that, looking at the plans, it was only needed, (because it had been stretched), when the 'Spirit of Free Enterprise' was going astern. It is only useful when moving astern and would not have much effect when moving forward. It could be used as a sort of bow thruster though  :-\

Regards, Dave
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The Ferry Man

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Re: Bow rudder
« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2009, 09:39:02 »
Quote from: Dave M on September 17, 2009, 00:05:52
Hi Wave Music,
Looking at the plans that you pointed at, I would say that this probably is a 'Bow Rudder' in the sense that, looking at the plans, it was only needed, (because it had been stretched), when the 'Spirit of Free Enterprise' was going astern. It is only useful when moving astern and would not have much effect when moving forward. It could be used as a sort of bow thruster though  :-\

Regards, Dave

The plans are pre-stretching - you can tell be the size of the aft superstructure. after conversion the rear most bit had two decks, whereas on the plan it has one.

before:

http://www.faktaomfartyg.se/spirit_of_free_enterprise_1980_bild_3.htm

After:

http://www.faktaomfartyg.se/pride_of_kent_1980_b_3.htm

 ;D
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Wave Music

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Re: Bow rudder
« Reply #22 on: September 17, 2009, 15:33:45 »
Quote from: The Ferry Man on September 17, 2009, 09:39:02
The plans are pre-stretching - you can tell be the size of the aft superstructure. after conversion the rear most bit had two decks, whereas on the plan it has one.

before:

http://www.faktaomfartyg.se/spirit_of_free_enterprise_1980_bild_3.htm

After:

http://www.faktaomfartyg.se/pride_of_kent_1980_b_3.htm

 ;D

Ferryman knows best!  ;D

There're already 2 bow thrusters together with the propeller & bow rudder...
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Dave M

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Re: Bow rudder
« Reply #23 on: September 17, 2009, 18:53:05 »
Hi Ferry Man,
 :doh: You are quite right.  :-[

Quote from: The Ferry Man on September 17, 2009, 09:39:02
The plans are pre-stretching - you can tell be the size of the aft superstructure. after conversion the rear most bit had two decks, whereas on the plan it has one.

before:

http://www.faktaomfartyg.se/spirit_of_free_enterprise_1980_bild_3.htm

After:

http://www.faktaomfartyg.se/pride_of_kent_1980_b_3.htm

 ;D
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The Ferry Man

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Re: Bow rudder
« Reply #24 on: September 17, 2009, 19:20:07 »
Quote from: Dave M on September 17, 2009, 18:53:05
Hi Ferry Man,
 :doh: You are quite right.  :-[


hehe

I grew with them two and the Pride of Dover/Calais...  ;)

Besides, the article does incorrectly say post conversion, when they are pre...
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