Exceptionally low tides in the Solent?.

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[Brian Walker]

Well i reckon it can't be done!. I've been on line a few times and witnessed tankers coming a cropper, going aground trying to turn the Bramble Bank in particular, so i took the safe option today and came in from the West on 'free roam'.  All was fine until approaching the presumably, NE Gurnard bouy.  Anyway i was in deep channel with 17 metres of wet stuff beneath me, when all of a sudden i took on damage after apparently running aground.  I was stuck.

living at Calshot and often popping down for a bit of ship spotting, i've yet to see ships of any size experiencing such problems. I can only assume that VSTEP have programmed either the Solent water too
shallow or the big ships draught to deep.  Either way, i think Fawley is heading for an oil shortage *chuckle*.

Incidentally, any real life seafarers out there know what the actual draught  of tankers should be, fully laden?.  Regards, Brian

[Bottman]

Hi Brian,

you are right! All environments are programmed with the lowest possible tide and the maximum draught of the vessels. Unfortunately that will not change before the developers have implemented the tidal influences and/or a kind of a ship editor for fine tuning of the draught and other specifications.

Cheers

[LucAtC]

For a list of tankers, you can also look at
http://www.tankersinternational.com/fleet_list.php?type=1&order=year_up
or for some links and characteristics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanker_(ship)
Regards,
Luc

[Brian Walker]

Gordon Bennet!.. That's English for 'I say, that's incredible!' Luc *smile*.  I just looked up that first site. That means all tankers need at least over 60 feet of water under 'em.  When the tides out here at Calshot, you can practically walk across to Cowes.  looks like the next ship download from VSTEP is going to have to be a dredger,right?.  Cheers, Brian.

[LucAtC]

Hello Brian,
Yes, you are right, there was also a discussion about Calshot
http://www.shipsim.com/ShipSimForum/index.php/topic,1671.0.html
but it is not impossible that since then depths could have been modified in ShipSim, cheaper than designing/building a dredger (but less interesting, of course).
Good luck with your shipspotting. You certainly know this site too?
http://www.ais-live.co.uk/AIS%20Live/aissolent.html
Regards,
Luc

[Brian Walker]

Hello Luc, yes i have that AIS site on my fav list, though i am not primarily a ship spotter but one of aircraft.  The data on that AIS site is similarly transmitted by aircraft, and is refered to as S Mode.  I have a reciever and prog called SBS1 by Kinetics Aviation that allows a virtual radar on my pc. On spotting a particular aircraft approaching on screen, i can then go into the garden with the binos and see the real item.  Radio communication can accompany this, but due to laws in this country prohibiting this, i of course wouldn't dream of listening *smile*.  Bit off subject, but i thought it may interest you.  (Type, heading, speed, height and call sign all displayed.  And owner, when i update from 'gatwick Aviation' data base).

[LucAtC]

Thanks, it is indeed a very interesting thing, and I didn't know there was such a black box receiver for aircraft transponder decoding available. Rather expensive at 750 euros, but I can understand that aircraft spotters cannot miss it. When will such receivers exist for public busses or trains?
Regards,
Luc

[Brian Walker]

Hello Luc, As a Radio Ham i could, if i could afford it, connect a gps reciever to my transmitter and send  my vehicle position over ham frequencies for other hams to view on their pc map at home.  The map software is called Ui-View (Free download) and a TNC with suitable reciever is naturally required at the recieving end (144.800 Mhz Narrow FM). The Kenwood TM-D71E is a radio with 'APRS', as the program is called, capability, having a built in 'TNC' (Terminal node controller)

It therefore follows that owners of public transport, or any business come to that, ie taxi's and truck firms who are in radio contact with their fleet can do something similar, and probably already do so.  Drifted a bit off topic there, but at least drifted is a nautical term *chuckle*.   Regards, Brian.

[Brian Walker]

Oh by the way, on the original topic.  The server chucked me out of the solent AGAIN Grrrr, so i tried the container ship from the Needles approach all the way to birthing at the container terminal at So'ton with no grounding, in free roam.  Well i say birth.  I made it to about five feet from the dock, which isn't bad with no tugs around, right?.  Some of those AI ships came a bit close up channel though.  Regards, brian. 

[LucAtC]

Indeed, I read somewhere that truck firms can follow their fleet, but I thought it was linked through sat phone data, or cellular. Your free roam mission is a nice one, and would be more pleasant with other players. Well, one of these days, the question of servers will be solved.
Regards,
Luc

[Kevinmcg_ships]

I once ran aground Red Eagle on a sandbank called the Swashway near Portsmouth because of low tide.    I never knew tides were set to 'low' in SS2008 until I read this thread.

I was following the route which Red Funnel Line's competitor Wightlink use during high tide. The sandbank passage is safe to proceed during high tide but when there is low tide the Wightlink ferries has to take an alternative (and longer) route to the deeper channel towards Portsmouth.

http://www.wightlink.co.uk/kidszone/across_the_solent/navigating_the_solent.htm

If VSTEP is going to fix the tides, might I suggest they set the tide somewhere in the middle between low and high tide? I'm not sure if having a tide which goes up and down as you play would be practical as I would imagine it'd take a lot of graphic card & CPU juice just to do that.

Kev

[Bottman]

That's what I'm praying for...

But it would much better, if we got real tides, as announced for a later version!

Regards

[steveboston]

Blimey Guv'nor! (thats another British expression meaning 'Struth') This 'low tide' business explains a lot! Why didn't VSTEP go for high or at least half tide to start with? That's like a flightsim giving us 200foot viz and 900ft cloudbase  as a starter until/unless they can be bothered to make variable weather.

This also explains the impossibility of getting into Portsmouth in anything bigger than a rowing boat. (The last time I looked (October) there were some almighty great warships and cross channel ferries in there floating about easily. Also - now I haven't checked this on v1.3 yet - but I did once post a whinge that the starting point for the Titanic in So'ton was wrong (bet they can't correct it for lack of water).

By the way Brian I like all that equipment you have - cool! Sounds a bit like my mate Dave who keeps a small caravan at our airfield. It bristles with more aerials than a Russian Spy Trawler!.

[groennegaard]

Why didn't VSTEP go for high or at least half tide to start with?

Hi Steve

I think the simple explaination to that question is that they just plotted the depths they found in the charts... they're programmers - not sailors. 

I think it will be too huge a task to correct it now, but believe it will be fixed in the next SS.

Regards
groennegaard

[ozziesailor]

i think u should be able to see underwater like silent hunter series that way u can check ur depth or why u are claiming damage for no reason. plus it would look so cool to see the boat under the water level

[Bottman]

The much better and more realistic way would be an echo-data-log to see the surface of the ground, or a kind of a sonar. There are not many vessels equipped with underwater bull eyes, guess? 

Cheers

[steveboston]

I take your point Groennengard but:
As for fixing the problem - could this  be done without a huge rewrite at VSTEP by running a piece of code or somesuch in all the environment databases to add (say) 2 meters depth to every point on their mathematical seabed polygon (or, if easier, raise the surface and land points)? If that tested OK then they could patch us.

I hasten to add that I ain't no expert, just an innocent bystander with limited knowledge of a similar thing in the flightsim world, with ground terrain heights.
   

[steveboston]

P.S. Sorry Groennegaard sir - I am useless at getting people's names right!

[LucAtC]

To monitor and record depths, a forward looking sonar would be nice, so as not becoming stuck because of low tide.
Also wondering if anyone still knows the indestructible german BEHM echosounders/paper recorders, supplied with a 24VDC to 220VAC 50Hz vibrator, working like a Tirill regulator. Each magnetostrictive plate had an 8" diameter... I don't remember if the tubes and valves were heated by candles, gas or electricity.
Regards,
Luc

[mvsmith]

Luc,
I’ve never seen the BEHM, but have spent many hours staring at Precision Depth Recorders by Gift (favored by SIO) and Alden (favored by WHOI). The ‘ducers were 8-inch or even larger. R/V Melville had them mounted in the bulbous bow, which also had viewing ports and was accessed by a trunk with watertight hatch. One could replace the transducers from inside the bow by closing the hatch and pressurizing the compartment.
Regards,
Marty

[groennegaard]

As for fixing the problem - could this  be done without a huge rewrite at VSTEP by running a piece of code or somesuch in all the environment databases to add (say) 2 meters depth to every point on their mathematical seabed polygon (or, if easier, raise the surface and land points)? If that tested OK then they could patch us.

Hi Steve

My name is difficult to spell - don't worry about it! 

I don't know exactly how these depths are set in the scenarios and how they are linked to the collision model. All I know is that Bottman, Sturmfahrt and Rooster24 have tried to get the developers to fix this low tide several times (and long ago). If it's an easy fix, they use to do it right away, but this issue hasn't been fixed yet. Probably it isn't as easy as it looks.

Regards
grønnegaard