Something to do between 'New Horizons' and a patch for 2008

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[Dave M]

As I can't do some of my favourite missions, (because you can't do anything with non-player ships and other bugs reported elsewhere), I have been filling in the time by trying to beat the best. I have had some success! I am number 1 in one of the missions, I cheated slightly by setting my graphics resolution to low to acheive the time I did,(I'm sure I won't be there for long). I have just noticed that someone else has had some success as well, pumaonegollo has got a best in no less than three missions; 'Water ambulance in Bad Weather' time is 4.48 achieved on February 3, next best time is 7.12 by Doc, the next one is 'Spare Parts For Marseille' time is 10.41 achieved on February 3, next best time is 22.47 by Jem, and the last is 'Test Drive In France' time is 11.26 achieved on February 3, next best time is  26.56 by Malsop.  The difference between the next best times and the times that pumaonegollo acheived would suggest that something is going on . I have done all of these missions and I would have thought that all of the times are impossible. This isn't a major thing but just a bit annoying. What do you think?
PS; sorry Doc

[Mad_Fred]

Hiya Dave,

Some players, and you have figured out perhaps which one(s)..    ..have used a form of cheating, where they would put the ship dynamics from, for example, the powerboat, into other, slower ships. These ships could then achieve the powerboat speeds.

The unbeatable times that seem impossible to acheive are almost certainly done with this cheat.

The whole purpose of this high score list is now compromised by this cheat. However, when caught, people who use this will be banned, as it is forbidden to reverse engineer the game, and when it also affects the enjoyment of other players (in MP for example) then it's dealt with harshly! As it should, obviously! 

Regards,
Fred

[Kevinmcg_ships]

This is a problem that has been going on for a while.

Perhaps it's about time a benchmark for each mission is introduced. That way we would know how long each mission could be completed realistically.

For example if a mission has a "fastest time" of 28mins and 45 secs as set down by VSTEP developers, it would be easy to spot if someone is cheating by completing the same mission, say, in 8 mins and 13 seconds.

For example i played a very nice mission called 'Test Drive in France' last night and I can only manage approx 30 mins so I know something is not right with the highscores for that mission.

I have to confess that I'm also guilty of achieving the most unrealistic best time in the 'forgotten containers' mission, which I managed to complete under 15 mins. However that was only made possible because of problems outwith my control. I was having major problems with the V1.3 patch and had to roll back to an earlier version. As a result the AI ships are 'frozen' (i.e. not moving) in every mission  .There's nothing much I could do about this but wait until the next patch comes out (New Horizons, perhaps?)

[Dave M]

Perhaps it's about time a benchmark for each mission is introduced. That way we would know how long each mission could be completed realistically.

I think this is a good idea. It would also be nice if the unrealistic fastest times could be deleted from the high score list by a global moderator. As I said earlier I'm not that bothered by high scores that much, I'm only keeping my interest in ShipSim going until updates and new missions come out. I'm sure that there are some players out there whose enjoyment of the game is being spoilt by the fact that they could never achieve a fast time on some of these missions.
Regards, Dave

[mvsmith]

Fast times may never be meaningful because there are too many ways to cheat. Going outside marked channels is one. Going through a mission like the ball in a pinball game is another.
Few missions have a damage threshold set. The default value allows almost any damage above the waterline. Only damage that results in sinking carries a penalty.
Most missions should have the damage threshold set at 3 or less.
Marty

[Dave M]

Hi Marty,
The greatest satisfaction I have had from ShipSim is docking the Vermaas in Marseille and Hamburg without a tug and snug alongside, there is no way I could get a fast time doing those missions. If you are after a fast time then you play the game differently. Going outside marked channels and so on is something that everyone can do, so I wouldn't consider that a cheat, (it isn't in the spirit of ShipSim but then some of our community have never had anything to do with the sea until now and so wouldn't know any better, I am a bit ignorant of the finer points of guideing a ship on the approaches to a harbour myself), it takes all kinds to make a world. This could be addressed by mission creators by placing waypoints strategically and like TerryRussell only allowing control of different vessels when he wants you to have control of them. I think you may be wrong about there being no penalties for slight damage. When I was trying to get the best time in 'New fast ferry service', if I hit the dock with the stern of the Red Funnel Cat, (above the water line), it caused 1% damage and that was enough to slow the Cat down by 1 or 2 Knots and on the longer missions that is enough to abandon the attempt.
Regards, Dave

[Kevinmcg_ships]

Hi Marty,
The greatest satisfaction I have had from ShipSim is docking the Vermaas in Marseille and Hamburg without a tug and snug alongside, there is no way I could get a fast time doing those missions. If you are after a fast time then you play the game differently. Going outside marked channels and so on is something that everyone can do, so I wouldn't consider that a cheat, (it isn't in the spirit of ShipSim but then some of our community have never had anything to do with the sea until now and so wouldn't know any better, I am a bit ignorant of the finer points of guideing a ship on the approaches to a harbour myself), it takes all kinds to make a world. This could be addressed by mission creators by placing waypoints strategically and like TerryRussell only allowing control of different vessels when he wants you to have control of them. I think you may be wrong about there being no penalties for slight damage. When I was trying to get the best time in 'New fast ferry service', if I hit the dock with the stern of the Red Funnel Cat, (above the water line), it caused 1% damage and that was enough to slow the Cat down by 1 or 2 Knots and on the longer missions that is enough to abandon the attempt.
Regards, Dave

True, the Wightlink ferries often travel outside marked channels during high tide between Portsmouth and Fishbourne (the solent environment).

I've also seen the paddle steamer Waverley sailing outside the marked buoys during high tide in the River Clyde.

[Dave M]

True, the Wightlink ferries often travel outside marked channels during high tide between Portsmouth and Fishbourne (the solent environment).

Hi Kevin,
In fact the Portsmouth/Fishbourne car ferries will use the same gap that the Red Funnel cats do in 'A fast ferry trip across the Solent' with a rising half tide on, (incidentally I'm only 14 seconds slower than you at the moment, I'm sure I can catch up ). I worked on the IOW ferries in the late 60s, (they were British Rail Ferries at the time), and I almost intoduced a new service, Portsmouth to Lee on Solent, my first time on the wheel on the car ferries the Mate made sure to mention that the forward wheel was locked and that I was to be sure not to put more than 5 degrees of wheel on at any time on the aft wheel, (it had this new fangled propulsion unit unlike the MV Shanklin, Southsea and Brading which I was used to), needless to say on leaving Portsmouth and entering the aforesaid gap the car ferry started to go to Port and so I put some Starboard wheel on, unfortunately I ended up at Full Starboard. The Mate had to take over to recover. Anyway enough with the nostalgia, a lot of the smaller craft will, if they can, use different routes and go outside of channel bouys.
Regards, Dave

[mvsmith]

Dave,
You are correct that damage can slow the ship, or impair steering, but for a difficult final docking that might be acceptable.
As for going outside channels, some players could feel that was not a proper thing to do, and would be penalized for good seamanship. Other kiddies would either not care, or more likely be ignorant of such matters. In some harbors, in reality, cutting buoys can lead to disaster.
Times are meaningless in a game where there are no rules.
It’s a source of amusement how the same people who complain of lack of realism in such things as horn sounds or other cosmetic concerns, do not extend that feeling to seamanship. They are happy to steer the ship with the keyboard and ignore the COLREGS and IALA-A, or B.
Marty

[Dave M]

Hi Marty,
I understand that cutting bouys in the Vermass or other large ships could lead to disaster but the smaller vessels in real life do often do this. In Portsmouth and its surrounds it has become common for the IOW ferries of all sorts to take known short cuts. These short cuts are known by QHM, (in fact if you listen to the radio messages that you hear when you are on the bridge the Squash is mentioned, which is a short cut to get into the channel approaching Portsmouth Harbour), and so are official. Maybe what we need is a computer generated QHM in the game so that if anyone breaks the rules then they will be penalised, (add time to their mission or add damage to their ship or slow the ship down).
Regards, Dave

[mvsmith]

Hi Dave,
My point was that not everyone knows what the local customs are in a particular harbor. If you were unfamiliar with, say, New York, would you follow the marked channel or save considerable time by cutting across to Buttermilk Channel?
Marty

[Kevinmcg_ships]

Hi Kevin,
In fact the Portsmouth/Fishbourne car ferries will use the same gap that the Red Funnel cats do in 'A fast ferry trip across the Solent' with a rising half tide on, (incidentally I'm only 14 seconds slower than you at the moment, I'm sure I can catch up ). I worked on the IOW ferries in the late 60s, (they were British Rail Ferries at the time), and I almost intoduced a new service, Portsmouth to Lee on Solent, my first time on the wheel on the car ferries the Mate made sure to mention that the forward wheel was locked and that I was to be sure not to put more than 5 degrees of wheel on at any time on the aft wheel, (it had this new fangled propulsion unit unlike the MV Shanklin, Southsea and Brading which I was used to), needless to say on leaving Portsmouth and entering the aforesaid gap the car ferry started to go to Port and so I put some Starboard wheel on, unfortunately I ended up at Full Starboard. The Mate had to take over to recover. Anyway enough with the nostalgia, a lot of the smaller craft will, if they can, use different routes and go outside of channel bouys.
Regards, Dave

Hi Dave,

Hee, hee was it a ferry with Voith Schneider units? 

Aah, MV Shanklin, Southsea & Brading......one of them should have been included for the Solent environment so that I can do a Portsmouth-Ryde run .  Red Jet 4 is just a young whippersnapper 

Regards,

Kev

[Cobrattack]

I was wondering what was up with those times!!!  I thought I just sucked that bad at boat driving!

[sonarman]

Aah, MV Shanklin, Southsea & Brading......one of them should have been included for the Solent environment so that I can do a Portsmouth-Ryde run .  Red Jet 4 is just a young whippersnapper 

Yes, that would be great I sailed on Shanklin when she became "Prince Ivanhoe " operated by the Waverley Steam Navigation Co. Sadly she only lasted one season being wrecked on the Gower Coast after striking an uncharted submerged object. Having worked aboard her earlier in the season before going back aboard Waverley I have a real "JFK moment" about the time I heard the news of the sinking. I can still remember exactly where I was and what I was doing and see it very clearly although it is now almost 27 years ago.

It would also be great to see some of the Southern Railway/BR Paddlers like the poor old PS Ryde

Balmoral would also be a great inclusion as she was very active in that area in her youth and still is today over 50 years later!

[Dave M]

Hi Kevin and sonarman, I found a site with some really sad pictures of the PS Ryde, http://www.pskingswearcastle.wanadoo.co.uk/Ryde.htm , I could swear that I saw the MV Shanklin in a Portsmouth scrapyard in the last few years, maybe I'm wrong and it was the Southsea. The Car ferry that I had problems steering was the Fishbourne I think and yes I think they were Voith Schneider. (There is a very detailed description of them and even a mention of the IOW car ferries being amongst the first to use them in another topic).

[Dave M]

(There is a very detailed description of them and even a mention of the IOW car ferries being amongst the first to use them in another topic).

Having just looked at that topic, http://www.shipsim.com/ShipSimForum/index.php/topic,2550.msg26287.html#msg26287 , I realise I am talking to experts. All I can say about my short experience on the wheel of the Fishbourne is that it was very different from conventional vessels, the wheel did not spring back to centre and only using one of the two wheels to steer made it very slow to react which is why I was over doing it all the time.
Regards, Dave

[sonarman]

Hi Kevin and sonarman, I found a site with some really sad pictures of the PS Ryde, http://www.pskingswearcastle.wanadoo.co.uk/Ryde.htm , I could swear that I saw the MV Shanklin in a Portsmouth scrapyard in the last few years, maybe I'm wrong and it was the Southsea.

HI Dave , Thanks for that , a real shame what's happened to Ryde. I think the owners had been approached several times with preservation bids which all unfortunately fell through. I do remember being on a "expedition" to her in the 1990's to purchase some spare parts for Waverley's capstan so at least some parts of her are still being used.

That would be the Southsea in Southampton probably at "Pounds Yard", again another preservation bid which failed, she was scrapped in Denmark about a year and a half ago. I'd say Ryde is finished , the engine might be salvegable but thats about it.Mind You they are, thanks to the lottery, building a new "Medway Queen" around her old engine so who knows? I hope the beautiful old Manxman isn't next in the breakers list, but perhaps she is too large to be preserved economically.

[Dave M]

Hi Dave,
My point was that not everyone knows what the local customs are in a particular harbor. If you were unfamiliar with, say, New York, would you follow the marked channel or save considerable time by cutting across to Buttermilk Channel?
Marty

Hi Marty,
I understand what you are saying and if I was in control of a vessel entering an unfamiliar harbour, (obviously if I was in a large vessel I would take the advice and guidance of a pilot), I would follow the channel bouys but if you are in ShipSim then you soon get very familiar with what you can do and can't do in a harbour. If you actually did some of the things that I did to get a fast time then you would probably lose your ticket in real life. In fact there are some little traps, (like if, towards the end of the mission, ('New fast ferry service') you get too close to a yacht entering the harbour a VLCC will block your way into your final destination and so bad seamanship is punished.). Don't be too hard on players who don't know any better, they will soon learn. There are other triggers for the trap I mentioned earlier but I won't reveal them.

[Cobrattack]

Just wondering on those times that are obviously obtained thru cheating.  Is there any way to have them removed?  I mean when the next fastest time for the mission is 2-3X the time it took for them it's really more proof than needed.  That way people who want to play the game can have something obtainable to strive for.  That plus I am new playing so I look at the time and think oh I should be able to finish this before I go to work it's only 15mins,, 2 hrs later I'm still not done and late for work!!!   Of course looking at the full list there are cheaters trying to outcheat the head cheater from the looks of it so the whole high score board would have to be reset after the exploit was removed.

[Dave M]

Just wondering on those times that are obviously obtained thru cheating.  Is there any way to have them removed?  I mean when the next fastest time for the mission is 2-3X the time it took for them it's really more proof than needed.  That way people who want to play the game can have something obtainable to strive for.  That plus I am new playing so I look at the time and think oh I should be able to finish this before I go to work it's only 15mins,, 2 hrs later I'm still not done and late for work!!!   Of course looking at the full list there are cheaters trying to outcheat the head cheater from the looks of it so the whole high score board would have to be reset after the exploit was removed.

Hi Cobrattack, that is something I would like to see, (the whole high score board would have to be reset after the exploit was removed.). It is discouraging and misleading to see a best time when you select a mission that you cannot actually achieve. As you said in your post, you expect the mission time to reflect how long it will take for you to complete a mission and I was caught out by that a couple of days ago, I selected a mission that had a fast time of around 20 minutes at about 22.15 the other night expecting it to take me about 30 minutes, it actually took me 1 hour 45 minutes and when you have to get up at 04.00 in the morning  , I did not have a good day the next day. On genuine fast times, if you allow 20 minutes per hour extra, you should arrive at a time that is achievable. Anybody who is going for a best time will cut corners as I have said in a previous post, (lower your graphics resolution and not go alongside quays, keep some distance so that you can turn onto a new course). The only thing I would say is that some of those times were achieved in an earlier version of ShipSim when the ship dynamics were not as they are now, (I only know that from previous posts on the subject). I would definitely vote for a reset of the high score tables if it was put to a vote but it would probably be best to wait until there was a definitive upgrade that would sort out ship dynamics and the ability of idiots to hack the game and produce false best times.
Regards, Dave