Ship Simulator
English forum => Ship Simulator 2008 => Topic started by: Sam on July 11, 2007, 16:57:43
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A lot of people are having troubble handling the Red Eagle beceaus they don't know how the VSP (Voith Schneider Propulsion) works.
That is why I started this topic, any comments are welcome.
(http://img393.imageshack.us/img393/6963/redeaglecontrolseu8.jpg)
On this image you can see the centre console of the red eagle.
It has 4 indicators and 4 wheels.
On the Red Eagle there is one VSP in the front and one in the back.
This makes the ship extremely manouverable.
If you turn one of the direction wheels, the direction indicator allso starts turning. If the the direction indicator of the front VSP points to the right, than the ship will turn to the left.
I hope everything becomes clear in this short video.
Keep an eye on the indicators!
http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=c6E6zhExBBU (http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=c6E6zhExBBU)
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Thank You So Much
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Well that definetly makes sense to me, but I find it odd that when you want to rotate the propellors 180 degrees, you have to rotate the wheels 360 degrees. And when yu want to rotate the propellors 90 degrees you have to rotate the wheels 180 degres.
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I wonder the same, maybe on the original it is like that.
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nice video
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Thank for the veido. Was alot of help.
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thats alot of wheels!! lol
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Really nice :D Gona need this wehn i get the game in my post, about 3days :P
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thanks come in handy when game comes 3days ;D
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Hi folks, I don't know if this has been deliberate or not, but the way the Red Eagle VSP controls work on the simulator is not the same as on the real thing.
The 2 wheels marked 'Direction Wheels' only alter thrust from Port to Starboard they do not alter it from Ahead to Astern. The 2 wheels marked 'Throttle Wheels' alter thrust from Ahead to Astern. Normally, they are linked together, but for certain situations you can operate them separately. This, incidentally, was what led to her sister's little bump at Southampton.
Engine 'Throttle Control' is not really an issue here as the engines in VSP vessels usually run at constant speed, all you are doing is altering the amount of movement of the blades on each VSP to give desired amount of thrust, anything from 0 % Ahead to 100 % Ahead, 0% to 100 % to Port etc etc. However, in these ships case one of 4 engine speeds can be selected by means of buttons.
Perhaps this could be changed in the first Fix Pack as I believe it would make her easier to control.
A nice little interactive simulator of how a VSP works can be found at
http://www.voith-turbo.com/545950.htm
Here is a link to the MAIB Report on Red Falcon's bump. As one of the main causes was the VSP Ahead / Astern controls being in Independent Mode rather than Synchronous, you can read more about how her controls work and so it is relevant to this thread.
http://www.maib.gov.uk/cms_resources/Red%20Falcon.pdf
Cheers, Stewart.
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Hum, I allso was wondering or the controls where on the real vessel like this.
Beceaus on a VSP tugboat they are totally different like the one in the game.
Thanks for the information!
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Nice video.
I believe on the real "Red Eagle" normal steerage is performed using the rear VSP, the forward VSP is normally set to provide froward propultion. In this manor the vessel acts like it has a rudder.
I will try and find out if the thrust direction wheels need two revolutions for a complete 360 rotation of thrust.
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Hello,
From this citation (Red Falcon.pdf , page 15)
cit "Each console had four hand wheels (Figures 2 and 5), two on the top, which provided the steering input (transverse pitch component) for each unit, and two on the console side, which provided the longitudinal pitch component. On the top of the console were four associated analogue dials, two to indicate blade pitch and, therefore, thrust, and two to indicate the direction of thrust"
one can derive that the direction of thrust of one particular VSP is dependent of the two corresponding wheels, one on the side for the longitudinal pitch component and the other on top of the console for the transverse component?
Indeed, from the demo, the direction of the thrust of a particular VSP is determined by the combination of the rudder pitch and of the driving pitch.
In the game, the side "throttle" controls the intensity of the thrust whichever the direction, the wheel controlling its direction.
Which one of both is correct? Or is there still another way to understand these controls?
Hints?
Regards,
Luc
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Really nice video, Sam :)
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Helped me alot. Thank you.
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ok, now i get it, i couldn't even get the Red Eagle to move :P now i understand. KM
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It seems that the controls for the Red Eagle are all a** about face.
On the real Red Eagle basically which ever direction you turn any given wheel the vessel moves in that direction.
For instance, if you are underway and turn the steering control wheel furthest away from you to the right the bow will turn to the right (Stbd) if you turn the steering control closest to you to the right the stern will swing to port as if you were using a conventional wheel and rudder.
The wheels on the side of the console control your ahead and astern motion/speed as somebody else mentioned in a previous post, it would be great if they could sort it out in a patch or something and maybe add the bridge wing controls too.
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So it looks like Sam ;) was quite right, and that the simulation is correct only ::) for one of the consoles. Ergonomically speaking, it is also better :o than the explanations in the BAIM report.
Of course, the interactive simulator is interesting, but this example precludes sideways movements. No wonder, of course, this tug has no bow and stern VSP, like Red Eagle.
It just remains to correct the "rear" console and making the manoeuvring characteristics fully symmetrical to put everything to right.
Thank you pigdog, all is clear now.. :D
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It would be really good if this can be fixed with a patch or if anybody knows how to change the values within the red Eagle folder to enable the correct handling that would be good.
So that the contols on the side of the console adjust your speed and ahead and astern motion.
Steering control closest to you does the opposite to what it does now.
The steering control furthest away from you is correct but the direction indicator is upside down the needle should point towards you when in the 0 pitch/midships position.
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Geat! Thanks alot!
What was your location on the last bit of training? :)
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I the Isle terminal in the Solent.
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Thank you! :)
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Hi folks,
After much experimenting and with help of the video on You Tube , I did a couple of hour's free roaming in the Solent with Red Eagle and finally sussed out the controls. Hope this will help until the patch fix arrives.
Kev
HOW TO STEER MV RED EAGLE
Full Ahead
Both rudder set to 0o (Zero degree).
Both throttle levers “Aheadâ€
Full Astern
Both rudder set to 180o in the Wheelhouse (45o on the outside view wheels)
Both throttle levers “Aheadâ€
Sideways
Both rudders set to 90o in the Wheelhouse (22o on the outside view wheels)
Both throttle levers “Aheadâ€
or if you want the vessel to go sideways in the opposite direction:
Both rudder set to 270o in the Wheelhouse (-22o on the outside view wheels)
Both throttle levers “Aheadâ€
8) AND NOW FOR THE PARTY TRICK…….. 8)
To do a 360 degree on-the-spot spin
First rudder set to 270o in the Wheelhouse (-22o on the outside view wheels)
Second rudder set to 90o (22o on the outside view wheels)
Both throttle levers at “Aheadâ€.
And now watch her spin! ;D
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Do you also have the problem that the throttles always go back to 0% when you change the view between outside and the bridge? Is it a bug?
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Hi Smoody,
Do you also have the problem that the throttles always go back to 0% when you change the view between outside and the bridge? Is it a bug?
No, I do not have the problem with the throttles going back to 0% when changing the view. The only time the throttles go back to 0% is when I've hit the UP or DOWN arrow keys.
If you still have this problem then maybe this is something that you would need to post in the Technical Support forum?
Kev
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Do you also have the problem that the throttles always go back to 0% when you change the view between outside and the bridge? Is it a bug?
I presume you're using a joystick. It's because the joysticks put these controls at 0 when they are "activated", the joystick is not active in the walkaround mode. Thats how it is for me atleast if I have an axis assosiated with the throttle.
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Well I docked with the terminal today, was alot of fun.
Took the way from the small boats past the terminal then turned around and then docked with the terminal :)
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I've given up, and am dissapointed with red eagle I was looking forward to it being in the game but it's totally useless and handles nothing like the real thing in any way, the only similarities are, it's got four wheels and it looks the same from the outside.
If it's happening with this ship then what other ships are totaly incorrect in their handling charicteristics? I really wish that they would move away from the 'ahead/astern/port and stbd only' parameters and make each ship handle very different to one another and have the same interactive controls as they do in real life, at the moment from what I can see all of the ships have the same handling and controls they just do it all at different speeds.
I know the game is in it's infancy and will develop over the next few years but I'm sure I'm not the only one who could get bored with this aspect of the game and therfore not bother buying further releases of it and the whole development thing comes to a grinding halt because of lack of funds.
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If it's happening with this ship then what other ships are totaly incorrect in their handling charicteristics? I really wish that they would move away from the 'ahead/astern/port and stbd only' parameters and make each ship handle very different to one another and have the same interactive controls as they do in real life, at the moment from what I can see all of the ships have the same handling and controls they just do it all at different speeds.
Isn't that pretty much what it's like in real life? ??? I mean most ships simply have "'ahead/astern/port and stbd only' parameters".
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Hi Pigdog,
Have you watched the nice tutorial video. I was stumped before but can 'drive' it OK now.
Not sure if it's 100% accurate as Red Funnel wouldn't let me have a go with the real one for comparison.
Stu
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Yay it moves :D
Thanks
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Hi Pigdog,
Have you watched the nice tutorial video. I was stumped before but can 'drive' it OK now.
Not sure if it's 100% accurate as Red Funnel wouldn't let me have a go with the real one for comparison.
Stu
Do you blame them? They wont let me have a go either! ;D
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Do you blame them? They wont let me have a go either! ;D
After that shark ate the red jet I was driving I don't think they would let me drive there big boat either :(
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I have watched the vid and very good it is too, but what I'm saying is they have spent alot of time and effort on making the ship models and scenery really realistic and hats off to them it looks fantastic but the handling seems to have been left behind.
Yes ships do have ahead/astern, port/stbd paramiters but they also slide through the water sideways with wind/tide and the effect of their props/waterjets and depth of water etc.
I'm so glad they modelled the wheels on the red eagle but getting them to work correctly is also a major part of it, at the moment it's a double ended ferry that really only goes one way, whats the point of having a simulator if all the vessels from a small water taxi up to a VLCC are all controlled from the same set of paramiters and basic controls when in reality they are controlled by completley different types of propulsion and handle very different.
Forgive me if I'm wrong but I don't think you'll find a wheel anywhere in sight on red jet 4's bridge it's more likely to be a joystick and it will have the ability to steer each jet independently with other joysticks, the same goes for the P&O Ferry that may have independent rudder controls operated by joystick.
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in some fairness you does have apoint, red jet four doesnt have wheels to control the steering, and i can see where you are coming from.
although, with the affects of the tide an wind as you mention there would be a lot of of extra work needed.
perhaps these affects will be added in the future! (hopefully)
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someone can make a movie that the red eagle moors at the terminal?
(instead of departure)
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Yes ships do have ahead/astern, port/stbd paramiters but they also slide through the water sideways with wind/tide and the effect of their props/waterjets and depth of water etc.
I thought they already had the sliding therough water feature, if they didn't I would not have totalled the Titanic against the harbour wall! :D
There are wind affects and there are shallow areas to avoid.
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That's my point right there,
The Titanic rests at the bottom of the Atlantic so no one really knows how she handles (like a pig I would imagine) but in the game she handles the same as all the others.
It is probably documented somewhere about her handling charicteristics but I doubt anyone developing the game looked at these and if they did they probably thought aghhh b*******s to that let's make them all handle the same.
You have no external forces placed on the models in the game only what you input via the controls, which by the way are all the same they just deliver at slightly different speeds therefore simulating nothing except each other.
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Ships are blown off course in the game, and if left unmoored they do float away a bit. And what do you mean by different handling? The Titanic does have a bigger turning circle than other ships such as the patrol boat and longer stopping distances and slower acceleration but higher top speed. How much more different do you want it to be?
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I had the Red Eagle in cowes with the wind on her beam with all controls set to 0, with the wind as hard as it can blow away from the berth and she just sat there doing nothing didn't even move, again while entering cowes under way she was not moving across the surface of the water except for ahead, with the wind blowing on her beam, so I wouldn't say that ships are blown off course in the game they just go ahead and astern through the water, if that was anything remotely resembling a real life situation she would be half way up the Medina river.
It's what ship handling (driving a ship) is all about, using the elements to your advantage and battling against them to carry out a bething or a voyage, look at any of the flight sims if you have cross winds or anything your plane is blown off course and rocked about, here with shipsim yes you have waves but they just go up and down, very beautifully may I add but they have no real effect on the progress of your ship through the water niether does the wind and there are no tides in the game anyway so I won't even go there.
By different handling I mean the way in which you actually control each vessel, even two sisterships will have different handling charicteristics one may be easier to control than the other, but in this context I'm talking about a wide range of ships within the game they all react to whatever steering/propulsion input you put in they just carry out them inputs at different speeds, which explains the bigger turning circle/stopping distances with the Titanic but my point is the PoR would be far more manouverable in real life than she is in the game and I dare say the Titanic would be far less, there isn't enough difference between each ship or ship type at the moment hopefully this can be rectified, but getting back to the Red Eagle which is what this topic is all about, her controls are totally wrong therefore in the game she will never handle or control anywhere near to how she would in the real world.
So the difference I would like to see is at least getting the controls to do what they are supposed to do and have a slight bit of realism in the game.
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That's odd, must be a bug because the weather did affect ships in SS06.
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Ah I see. It's as if the thing hasn't got a propeller and rudders at all, just some kind of jet outlet at each end which rotate !
I see it now and thank you for this.
But why didn't they remove the reverse positions from the throttle lever ?
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No, that is a total different system, it has VSP's.
More about VSP's in here (http://www.voithturbo.de/vt_en_pua_marine_vspropeller.htm)
The Red eagle has one in the front and one in the back.
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Just think of a VS unit as a giant food blender! ;D
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Hi!
Its a cool video..! But How do you make such video's? Is it an option of the game itself? Or do I have to push a button on my keyboard.. Or do I have to download something? I hope someone wants give an answer on my question.. I want to make some cool videos of The Arie Visser to show my dad (who's a member of the knrm) how the boat looks, sounds and sails.. I only could show the looks with a couple of screenshots..
Greetz.. Christian
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You need to download a recording programme. FRAPS sounds as though it is the best for this purpose. It should come with instructions for use.
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nice! i thought it had a weird kind of azipod or something ^^, thats something i would like to see in SS2008, a boat powered by azipods.
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You need to download a recording programme. FRAPS sounds as though it is the best for this purpose. It should come with instructions for use.
You would come with instructions for me :) Maybe you forgot it.. so I thought.. maybe i could help you remember it again.. :D
Kind regards
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Hi,
I've been a silent lurker here for a little while now. Just thought I'd say thanks for the tips in this thread, very useful stuff and managed now to work out how to get this thing moving and re-live some holiday trips.
;D
- Smiffa
Edited for language, DJM.
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As the stability issues appear to have been sorted out quite nicely with the Red Eagle, I have played it 'once or twice' ;) and can say the secret is to use very gentle use of the controls.
Whether this is prototypical or not, I have found that when docking use one pod for forward and the other for turning and only play with both together once you are used to it.
Also, some videos I've seen show people racing to the terminal and going full astern just before the collision. Try going into the harbour at sensible speeds 8kts or so and be at crawling speed when your ship actually enters the berth. Its a nice ship now the controls are sorted (just watch there is still a bug in the pod direction gauge).
Stu
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When I am 10 meters from the berth, I am only going 3 knots.
And I allso have the front VSP aimed to the front. So that it will slow down the ship.
You have a very well speed and movement control when you do this.
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Exactly.
If you sit and watch large ships, look how long they take from entering harboUr to mooring. Having said that, some harboUrs (notably Dover) they do seem to enter very quick.
I wonder in the case of Dover if that is to help get them through the reputedly awful cross current outside the harbour wall.
Stu
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You would come with instructions for me :) Maybe you forgot it.. so I thought.. maybe i could help you remember it again.. :D
Kind regards
Oh I'm so sorry. I completely missed this post! I'm afraid I didn't mean I would post instructions, I meant that you would probably get instructions from the FRAPS site or from a read me when you download. I've actually not used this programme or any other like it, I just knew of it's reputation and that other forum members had used it.