Ship Simulator

English forum => Ship Simulator Extremes => Topic started by: action123456789 on July 19, 2010, 15:08:43

Title: life like sinking
Post by: action123456789 on July 19, 2010, 15:08:43
do the ships sink like a regular ship inteads ok strait down ???
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: Shipaddict on July 19, 2010, 17:36:05
Don't know and if I'm honest I think most players who play the game seriously don't care either. :)

This is a ship simulator, if you want fancy sinking purchase a war game.
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: valleyforge on July 19, 2010, 18:03:07
I'm not quite sure, but I think it would give the game a much more realistic feel if ships sank correctly. Sinking straight down isn't very....exciting. I hope that SSE includes real sinking ships.
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: The Ferry Man on July 19, 2010, 18:10:53
But the object of the simulator is to not sink...
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: Shipaddict on July 19, 2010, 18:19:33
I'm not quite sure, but I think it would give the game a much more realistic feel if ships sank correctly. Sinking straight down isn't very....exciting. I hope that SSE includes real sinking ships.

If you were on a ship going down in the middle of no where on a dark stormy night would you be getting your camera out jumping up and down with excitement taking pictures? :P
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: Matthew Brown on July 19, 2010, 19:26:56
If you were on a ship going down in the middle of no where on a dark stormy night would you be getting your camera out jumping up and down with excitement taking pictures? :P

Hell yeah! I would be straight out there in my raincoat, I for some reason love storms!
But... ummm... I probably wouldn't have my camera (my cameras still probably got salt inside it from the last episode  ::) )

Lol  ;D

Kind Regards

Matthew
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: Wipedout on July 19, 2010, 22:40:05
I think his point is that some of the missions are rescue type missions - correct?  so if the ship is sinking it should sink realistically - not your ship but the ship in distress

I believe that would be the point of his question

 :)
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: valleyforge on July 20, 2010, 17:10:05
I think his point is that some of the missions are rescue type missions - correct?  so if the ship is sinking it should sink realistically - not your ship but the ship in distress

I believe that would be the point of his question

 :)

I agree with this. And when i said "exciting", i didn't mean lets jump for joy, but more of I think i would add a certain level of excitement like in walkthrough mode if the ships bow went down and the deck rose at a high angle..something along those lines.
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: The Leviathan on July 21, 2010, 20:19:34
I realy hope they have realistic sinking, the reason why I play this game is so I can sink the biggest ships like the Ocean Star  :evil:
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: McGherkin on July 21, 2010, 20:37:33
Rammer.
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: Hudizzle on July 22, 2010, 01:09:04
I realy hope they have realistic sinking, the reason why I play this game is so I can sink the biggest ships like the Ocean Star  :evil:

*Facepalm*

Alright, I'll admit I like to simulate a sinking every so often, act like I'm there, see what happens, use the imagination a bit and add a bit more "action", if you want to call it that, and I think a simulator should also, to some extent and within reason, simulate accurately what can happen if you sneeze at the wrong moment, push the wrong button, or fall asleep at the helm...
But there's more to Ship Sim than sinking ships. Ship Sim doesn't even have a straightforward way to sink ships in the sense that, say, Virtual Sailor does, which allows you to just push a button and start sinking. On top of that, I'm not sure why anybody would only use these games for sinking, the ships go down in less time than it would take to realize what happened (which is ultimately where the realistic sinking "feature" comes into play).

I don't mind a sinking every now and then, but something that annoys me is when people only ever use these simulators for sinking ships. Do a search on Youtube (I know YT is a terrible standard for such things) at any time on either Ship Simulator or Virtual Sailor, and you'll see plenty of videos of crashes, sinkings and disasters recorded in the games. Of course there aren't nearly as many sinking videos it seems from Ship Sim as there are from Virtual Sailor.. More than half of the videos for that are Titanic stories, Britannic sinkings and Poseidon capsizings, along with a plethora of other other sinkings and disasters, usually involving cookie-cutter cruise ships and any of the Olympic-Class or Cunard liners.
Most of these videos aren't even done that well, sorry to say, but it must be said. It gets old after a while, really.

You can only sink Titanic so many times.. At least get creative with it.. Don't just push the sinking button in VS or ram a ship in SS, push the record button, and throw together a short video with unfitting music with your mouse cursor, menu and IM chat windows and task bars all over the screen. Maybe that's impressive for people between the ages of 10 and 13, but not for people who want to at least try to take these simulators a bit more seriously, and actually use them more for their intended purpose. VS it seems has already mostly been taken over by children who just want to sink things, even if it's a monochrome block with a famous ship's name tagged to it... When great addons are made, the bulk of comments mainly go to more popular ships, like Titanic, and then many of those are just questions like "dose sink reallistic??!?!?!@?"
I actually got a comment on a video of my Poseidon addon for VS a few days ago that said "It didn't sink! Why did I watch this." I mean, come on...

Anyway, I'll lose my point if I go on more, so I'll just say...
I'm supportive of more realistic sinking as well, if it can be done, but please, there's more to Ship Simulator than sinking, time and resources must be spent on more important features, and if they don't manage to squeeze in more realistic sinkings, don't throw a fit, especially since sinking is not the point of the game.

Just my two cents...
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: Captain. Mitch on July 22, 2010, 09:09:34
Well, i think sinking is not important in these game.

Isn't te objective of the mission to drive the vessel careful from port to port and passing the missions with safe ship??

I think that's the mission, if we are sinking it, the mission is failed...

And you need to have on the mind, that if you are riding Ocean/Orient star if you sink the ship, you are going in the jail, because you are responsible for passangers life.

But the only thing what REALLY bothers me is that ONE SMALL SAILING YACHT OF 9 METERS CAN SINK THE HUGE SHIPS LIKE OCEAN STAR, VERMAS, AGILE SOLUTION...

That is NOT Real Life, and these situations are possible, so i think these is a BUG!

Kind regards.
Capt. Mitch

Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: larsdehaan on July 22, 2010, 09:32:35
well maybe one or two mission where you are the rescue vessel and need to be fast and get to the scene of the sinking and rescue the crew and passengers or maybe a towing mission for an artificial reef
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: klmmicro on July 22, 2010, 16:13:00
For rescue missions, realistic sinking IS important.  I thought this is supposed to be a simulator, not a simple video game.  Also, having an option to attempt to prevent sinking through repair would be realistic.  Things occur out on the water that cause damage that can sink you, but not right away.
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: McGherkin on July 22, 2010, 16:18:23
Damage control :C

(http://www.navynews.co.uk/Cms/Shop/Images/ResizedImages/ccf1(1)_w600h600.jpg)

But they got wussy waterproofs.
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: larsdehaan on July 22, 2010, 16:32:55
Damage control :C

(http://www.navynews.co.uk/Cms/Shop/Images/ResizedImages/ccf1(1)_w600h600.jpg)

But they got wussy waterproofs.
i wonder if one of them let his zipper open lol
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: McGherkin on July 22, 2010, 16:53:38
You should see what I had to wear.

(http://buggynavy.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/driu.jpg)


About as thick as a T-shirt and just as waterproof/warm. Especially as I was only allowed to wear swimming trunks underneath.
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: mvsmith on July 22, 2010, 17:21:32
Hudizzle has put it quite well.
I’ll add that, if you gave any real thought to the problem of “realistic sinking”, you would see that it is a tremendously complex problem.

Large ships in SS08 generally sink in one of three ways: They settle, go down by the head, or go down by the stern. This is usually determined by the location of the bridge, which is usually the last to go under.
 
To increase the realism would require the mode of sinking to depend upon the cause: Where she was holed, etc. That would add to the complexity of the model, and the excess baggage it would carry. That, in turn, has an adverse affect on frame rate and memory use.

Many ships, Liberty ships and T2 tankers for instance, sink because they crack in half. If a ship is to break up while sinking, the 3D model has to be made that way. That, again, requires it to carry extra baggage.

The developers are quite capable of making such realistic sinking possible. Thankfully they don’t. It is a bad idea because all other users who do not have a sinking fetish would pay for it in reduced performance or more expensive computers.

Some ships, like Jumbo Javelin, that carry real names cannot sink. Their owners don’t want to see them sink on YouTube.
Some companies or organizations, Like Maersk, or USCG, won’t give VSTEP permission to use their name or logo for the same reason.
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: valleyforge on July 22, 2010, 18:43:10
I understand this, but isn't it possible to make the way of sinking already included in the game a little more dynamic? I can understand why VSTEP doesn't want to make high-poly models so that ships can sink as literal as possible, but when going down by bow or stern couldn't the ship rise at a high angle or something?
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: Gamefan! on July 22, 2010, 19:28:35
This gonna be good :D
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: mvsmith on July 22, 2010, 21:53:16
but when going down by bow or stern couldn't the ship rise at a high angle or something?

Why would they do that?
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: krytsch on July 22, 2010, 22:24:09
They won't listen - or cannot read. We already have a discussion concerning the high level of system requirements - so why do you keep asking for more and more useless functions, which require even more computing power?
I want to sail ships - not to sink them!!

There are really more than enough stupid SS06 and SS08 ship sinking videos to be found at YouTube - The Titanic crashing into the Vermaas, a capsizing PoR, Titanic and Ocean Star colliding etc. ... :doh:

Maybe VStep should launch a kid's version, with 150 feet waves, evil aliens, deadliest catch ships, at least 3 sinking ships in each mission.

By the way - has anybody seen the "seamulator"-clips at YouTube. Give it a try! Where can I buy this game?
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: Riddip on July 22, 2010, 23:15:51
By the way - has anybody seen the "seamulator"-clips at YouTube. Give it a try! Where can I buy this game?


http://www.amazon.de/Xplain-Seamulator-Motorboot-u-Segelsimulator/dp/3950205926

But as far as i have seen, the gfx in ss08/sse are quite superior ;)
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: krytsch on July 22, 2010, 23:18:43
Yes, the seamulator thing was a joke / its even worse than Virtual Sailor - but seamulator can show us, how lucky we are with SS06/08 - take a look
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: mvsmith on July 22, 2010, 23:49:21
If, in SS08, you Play > Mission > Disaster near Bergen you can watch Latitude sink completely. She does go down at a fairly steep angle, about 30 degrees, but only after enough of her is submerged to maintain her at that attitude.

Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: Ballast on July 23, 2010, 11:26:57
Why would they do that?

Perhaps because that's how the Titanic sunk in the latest movie?  ::)
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: krytsch on July 23, 2010, 11:31:22
I too believe that life like sinking and Hollywood like sinking is getting mixed up here ...
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: The Leviathan on July 23, 2010, 21:05:03
There must be a realistic sinking process if this is going to be a simulator. In real life, if you hit something you would need to make the decision to call for support and abandon ship or repair the ship. In a real life situation you don't just crash your boat and say"ooopps we crashed, no need to evacuate because we will be under water in under 2 minuets"
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: McGherkin on July 23, 2010, 21:35:38
That is why we have a nice little percentage at the top of the screen. It's like a very simplified damage report.
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: mvsmith on July 23, 2010, 22:05:21
Leviathan:
Since you are not a registered user of SS08, you probably know nothing about the way ships sink in this program.
If it makes you happy to say it is not a simulator, that’s OK. Neither is FSX a simulator, because the aircraft do not crash in a realistic manner.
I can’t say anything about the way ships sink in SSE, but I hope they have not wasted resources on something that adds little that’s worthwhile.
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: Kapn Jonah on July 23, 2010, 23:29:48
If all you want to do is sink, dont buy the game, its pointless. The whole point is to finish a mission safely, without sinking. Sinking is the worst possible thing.. And like a few others have said it would be pointless to make it more realistic, because it would lead to higher specs, and nobody wants to buy more expensive computers to play the game.

But i dont know why im saying it. Sinking enthusiasts dont care how much we say about it all they want is they're realistic sinking (which is stupid)
 :C
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: trains on July 24, 2010, 15:50:58
We all know Ship Simulator is a simulation for sailing, not sinking. Although the whole purpose is to sail ships, ships sink in real life. Now maybe for realism, there could be missions where you'll have to save the crew from a sinking ship, by taking a vessel like the Arrie Visser out to the ship in distress, actually get on the other ship and make sure all crew members are safely on board your vessel, and then have to sail away before the larger vessel sinks, causing damage to the rescue vessel.

I used to be one for sinking when that feature came out, but now I sail and if I sink, I sink and just move on. I don't go around ramming other vessels or rocks just for fun. I'll admit I do so once in a while to see how I can handle being on a ship and see what would be a good possibilty if it was real. But one problem with that training is the ships sink in about one and a half minutes. Maybe a feature to control sinkings like bulkhead doors could help, and being able to launch the lifeboats(I think we'll be able to though)

But all in all, for my opinon, more realism in sinkings could be a good addition. I'm not saying that's all I want though. I'd like to see my ship where it should be, on the top of the water. Not miles below. Sinking happens in real life and in Ship Simulator, but let's all remember, Vstep designed this game for players to train for sailing and have fun seeing all the sights.
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: mvsmith on July 24, 2010, 16:45:25
There is a mission in SS08 where you have to take Arie Visser out to a sinking VLCC in the North Sea and rescue the crew (from the drink, not from the ship) before the ship sinks. You can watch the ship go all the way under in a reasonably realistic way.

Many critics of the way ships in SS08 sink have either never seen the various ways in which they sink, or have only tried to sink them by ramming.
By using the trigger in the Mission Editor you can cause various sinking situations and gain some real knowledge of the subject.
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: MokMok on July 24, 2010, 20:27:51
You can use the ~sink cheat code for sinking a vessel. Or you can let the Pride of Rotterdam capsize by throwing out her anchors while at e relative high speed.

In Virtual Sailor you have both a sink and a capsize button. Eeven you can download an add-on of the Estonia. When you let the Estonia capsize, you will hear the people onboard screaming.
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: Ballast on July 24, 2010, 20:41:21
The latter really makes my stomach turn around, how cruel is that . Absolutely respectles from the creators  :-\
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: Traddles on July 24, 2010, 22:04:12
Quote:-In Virtual Sailor you have both a sink and a capsize button. Eeven you can download an add-on of the Estonia. When you let the Estonia capsize, you will hear the people onboard screaming. Unquote.

Now I can see that Virtual sailor is definitely NOT a simulator but a sick joke.
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: McGherkin on July 24, 2010, 22:09:14
VS isn't sick, but the creator of that addon is.
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: Traddles on July 24, 2010, 22:16:35
IF VS allow that then sick is the right word.
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: Shipaddict on July 24, 2010, 22:20:48
After all the poncy regulations that lot have for uploading to their library and modelling guidelines etc, they still accept something as disgusting as that?
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: McGherkin on July 24, 2010, 22:25:51
Good point. Sick.
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: clanky on July 24, 2010, 22:28:01
In Virtual Sailor you have both a sink and a capsize button. Eeven you can download an add-on of the Estonia. When you let the Estonia capsize, you will hear the people onboard screaming.

That is truly horrendous, I can't begin to imagine how the families of those who lost loved ones on the Estonia would feel if they found out about this.

EDIT: Is it not about time this thread was locked?
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: McGherkin on July 24, 2010, 22:30:29
Is this vessel actually in the official library though?
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: krytsch on July 24, 2010, 22:44:03
I don't think it is VS' fault - there are tons of ships out there, that can be downloaded and used for free. Nice ones, but really bad ones as well II even found one of those which sailed on the Flensburger Förde when I was a child). They (Ilan Papani) can't control these tons ships (have you seen the Agile Solution for VS? It's quite funny to compare ...).

By the way, it was the demo version of VS which made me buy SS08, because when I wanted to buy it the local dealer only had SS08 in stock (Gold edition including NH and all add ons (apart from Furie and Elbe)) for 9.90 Euro! So I gave it a try ... you may have already guessed what happened then ...

Meanwhile VS is uninstalled.
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: McGherkin on July 24, 2010, 22:46:12
The vessel appears to have been removed.
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: Shipaddict on July 24, 2010, 22:47:30
I've just had a look, and it does appear to have been removed from the library. However, there is still a topic on the VS forum.

Sorry for going off topic :)
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: krytsch on July 24, 2010, 22:51:43
But mvsmith gave us the real point why this discussion should be stopped:

"The developers are quite capable of making such realistic sinking possible. Thankfully they don’t. It is a bad idea because all other users who do not have a sinking fetish would pay for it in reduced performance or more expensive computers."

In times, when people quarrel about high system requirements this sentence should stop everybody from crying for "more realistic sinking".

How many other reasons do you need?
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: clanky on July 24, 2010, 22:54:27
But mvsmith gave us the real point why this discussion should be stopped:

"The developers are quite capable of making such realistic sinking possible. Thankfully they don’t. It is a bad idea because all other users who do not have a sinking fetish would pay for it in reduced performance or more expensive computers."

In times, when people quarrel about high system requirements this sentence should stop everybody from crying for "more realistic sinking".

How many other reasons do you need?

[/topic]
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: krytsch on July 24, 2010, 22:59:52
???
What do you mean?
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: v.h94 on July 25, 2010, 08:06:51
Quote:-In Virtual Sailor you have both a sink and a capsize button. Eeven you can download an add-on of the Estonia. When you let the Estonia capsize, you will hear the people onboard screaming. Unquote.

Now I can see that Virtual sailor is definitely NOT a simulator but a sick joke.

First of all that member is on this forum, and secondly hes my friend and it's not ment to capsaise her.

I want to make shure that I just point this out i'm not mad against someone I just think peopel should think before posting.

The reason why he has those sounds it probeably because there is a warning signal and the peopel aren't meant ot be there, he just din't find any other that he legal could put on the ship.

I will talk to him and just inform him about that peopel thinks that sound is offensesive. (if he hasent seen this topic)

Best regards v.h94
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: MokMok on July 25, 2010, 10:27:51
Virtual Sailor has indeed a lower graphics quality. The add-ons, some are very well, but others are very poor. A disadvantage is that you have to activate VS before you can use the program. And the period in which you can still activate the VS program after re-install seems to be limited for only two years.
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: silja on July 25, 2010, 17:29:43
Hello to all,
 
     I am the creator of the addon Estonia for VS. Certainly the sound of "Capsize" Was awkward to me. I apologize. I had no intention of hurting and/or offend people. I had no Iintent of the offending parents of victim mostly I know many people who were the days on board of the sinking. I apologize.
     That said, I have is to simply placed sound show to the people who downloaded this addon the severity of the sinkink but not just play and not make fun of people screaming in fear. I apologize. (I delete my model for a long time since I found it not very realistic)

Thanks,
Silja.
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: abcabcabc5000 on July 25, 2010, 20:16:06
A very realistic sinking, such as hitting port side will make your ship sink into the port side, etc, is not needed in my opinion, as we won't encounter it very often (not the point of the game), but enhanced effects for sinking, at least not sink like a submarine submerging, would be a nice addition. Just make sure it won't greatly increase the resources needed to play this game, and it would be nice.
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: Thomas N Walker on July 28, 2010, 23:13:54
Titanic sould sink like she really did and ocean star could do a poseidon sort of thing
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: McGherkin on July 29, 2010, 00:50:48
Perhaps you should read pages 1 and 2 of this topic.
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: mvsmith on July 29, 2010, 02:52:04
Titanic sould sink like she really did and ocean star could do a poseidon sort of thing

Modern forensics and the archives of Harland and Wolff indicate that Titanic broke up on the surface at a stern angle of no more than eleven degrees. Most people calling for more “realistic” sinking have only a foggy notion of how ships sink based on romanticized paintings of Titanic and Hollywood hyperbole.
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: Ciroton on July 29, 2010, 04:15:09
~My Two Cents~

Cent one:

There are two types of people who play ship simulators. They are Sinkers and Floaters. Which one are you?

(Personally, I am a Floater, but I do sink sometimes for the sake of curiosity and if I feel like doing an imaginary scenario. When doing a mission or playing with a goal in mind, I am VERY careful how I go.)

Cent Two:

Before VStep gets to fixing the sink mechanics, they should fix the Artificial Stupidity of the "AI" vessels. I can't count the number of times one of them has sunk me because they wouldn't yield, I never saw them, or couldn't stop/turn in time to avoid them.

One even turned RIGHT INTO ME once. Thankfully, I didn't sink -THAT- time
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: valleyforge on July 30, 2010, 03:14:12


Before VStep gets to fixing the sink mechanics, they should fix the Artificial Stupidity of the "AI" vessels. I can't count the number of times one of them has sunk me because they wouldn't yield, I never saw them, or couldn't stop/turn in time to avoid them.

One even turned RIGHT INTO ME once. Thankfully, I didn't sink -THAT- time

I agree with this.
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: abcabcabc5000 on July 30, 2010, 09:33:56
~My Two Cents~

Cent one:

There are two types of people who play ship simulators. They are Sinkers and Floaters. Which one are you?

(Personally, I am a Floater, but I do sink sometimes for the sake of curiosity and if I feel like doing an imaginary scenario. When doing a mission or playing with a goal in mind, I am VERY careful how I go.)

Cent Two:

Before VStep gets to fixing the sink mechanics, they should fix the Artificial Stupidity of the "AI" vessels. I can't count the number of times one of them has sunk me because they wouldn't yield, I never saw them, or couldn't stop/turn in time to avoid them.

One even turned RIGHT INTO ME once. Thankfully, I didn't sink -THAT- time



That's true. Even for the very agile or small AI boats, they simply won't turn to avoid me, even if I am a tanker or a frieghter and very obvious that I dun have a chance to dodge them. And aren't small ships supposed to give way to the larger ships?
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: McGherkin on July 30, 2010, 10:11:55
Stupid AI. They knock you down and beat you with experience.

They're best kept at something more than arm's length. Like a mile away.

They can be persuaded to stop, but only if you sail ahead of them and slowly decrease your speed.
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: IRI5HJ4CK on July 30, 2010, 10:26:52
Modern forensics and the archives of Harland and Wolff indicate that Titanic broke up on the surface at a stern angle of no more than eleven degrees. Most people calling for more “realistic” sinking have only a foggy notion of how ships sink based on romanticized paintings of Titanic and Hollywood hyperbole.

I have to say I agree with that totally...

But I think it's been summed up very well by yourself and Hudizzle.

Some people simply want to sink ships all day long, which is all well and good, but the real mariners who want a Ship Simulator (Not a sinking simulator) pay for that extra 'sinking feature' as you pointed out Marty..through system specs.

I understand the point of "If the ship sinks, it would be nice for it to sink slower *this way* and *That way*" and so on. But the mariners don't want to see ships sink...the idea is that they float. Not sink.

What it boils down to is the fact that you have 2 or 3 groups. First one is the Ship Sinking crew, the second are the people who are neither here or there, and the third are generally the mariners who just don't want to see ships sinking. Yes, ships do sink; but that isn't the object of the simulator. Some may say that because it is a "Ship SIMULATOR", that is has to accomodate everything. Again, that's all well and good, but peoples machines simply CANNOT accomodate everything. And V-STEP aren't going to waste their time downgrading their game (Ie by upping the specs so high that people can't play it) so that ships sink in a particular fashion that suits a minority group...

I think this is something that people will debate for as long as Ship Simulator is here...I also think some people should stop looking at how ships will sink in SSE and look at the OTHER new features that'll be in the game. Be appreciative of that I say...

Jack.
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: Ballast on July 30, 2010, 13:09:06
Cent Two:

Before VStep gets to fixing the sink mechanics, they should fix the Artificial Stupidity of the "AI" vessels. I can't count the number of times one of them has sunk me because they wouldn't yield, I never saw them, or couldn't stop/turn in time to avoid them.

One even turned RIGHT INTO ME once. Thankfully, I didn't sink -THAT- time

And you also know the situations where the AI vessel is the stand on vessel and where you should give way according the collision regulations? I know the AI vessels can be annoying, but it isn't always "their fault".


Unfortunately this problem is well known since SS06. I think it will be pretty hard to get the AI vessels that smart, since every situation is different and requires a different solution. In SS06 the devs tried to fix this problem, by letting the AI vessel stop if it was getting too close to your own vessel. That created even more annoying situations
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: mvsmith on July 30, 2010, 13:41:42
I’ll add to Ballast’s good comments that the attempt to provide better AI behavior in SS08 is the major cause of so-called QV errors, and the inability to initialize some missions.

The computational requirements in solving the complex AI problem, on top of those for implementing reasonable dynamics in a heavy sea, can put a capable computer beyond the reach of many.
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: valleyforge on August 01, 2010, 03:49:36
I think too many people are misunderstanding this topic. We all get that this is a ship simulator, not sink simulator, but wether people do it for fun or not, ships do sink in the game. I don't VSTEP needs to make superbly high-poly models to accomodate those who do have sinking fetishes, but for the few times it can happen why not make the sinking a little more realistic?
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: Ciroton on August 01, 2010, 04:33:17
And you also know the situations where the AI vessel is the stand on vessel and where you should give way according the collision regulations? I know the AI vessels can be annoying, but it isn't always "their fault".


Unfortunately this problem is well known since SS06. I think it will be pretty hard to get the AI vessels that smart, since every situation is different and requires a different solution. In SS06 the devs tried to fix this problem, by letting the AI vessel stop if it was getting too close to your own vessel. That created even more annoying situations

I try to follow Collision Avoidance Regulations but, quite honestly, I forget sometimes. Oops.  :-\

Quote
I’ll add to Ballast’s good comments that the attempt to provide better AI behavior in SS08 is the major cause of so-called QV errors, and the inability to initialize some missions.

The computational requirements in solving the complex AI problem, on top of those for implementing reasonable dynamics in a heavy sea, can put a capable computer beyond the reach of many.

Don't worry, I understand good AI is basically out of reach for the foreseeable future due to current processing limitations. I was just trying to say that some issues are more pressing then making a realistic sinking mechanic. That and I wanted to vent a little bit of frustration. =P
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: clanky on August 03, 2010, 10:32:25
Does anyone know if ShipSim Pro whatever it's called these days has AI ships or if they are all controlled by the instructors running the simulation?
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: McGherkin on August 03, 2010, 10:33:18
SSPro NAUTIS has AI, I believe.
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: Ballast on August 03, 2010, 12:02:41
Ít would make sense that the instructor would set the course and speed for the AI vessels, where the instructor judges every situation separately with his experience and knowledge. During a simulator exercise you want to practise particular situations e.g. crossing a TSS or entering/leaving a port. Most exercises i've done on a sim were under rule 19 "restricted visibility" of the COLREG, where both vessels have to take the necessary actions.
Title: titanic sinking life like
Post by: cap,nfoster on August 07, 2010, 14:51:44
in sse titanic shoud bow first then break
p.s shoud have her sisters  :) ??? :captain:
[/color]
Title: Re: titanic sinking life like
Post by: The Ferry Man on August 07, 2010, 15:01:32
in sse titanic shoud bow first then break
p.s shoud have her sisters  :) ??? :captain:
[/color]

No... Just No...

This is Ship Simulator - not SHIPSINK SIMULATOR
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: deltaecho on August 07, 2010, 16:35:08
~My Two Cents~

Cent one:

There are two types of people who play ship simulators. They are Sinkers and Floaters. Which one are you?

(Personally, I am a Floater, but I do sink sometimes for the sake of curiosity and if I feel like doing an imaginary scenario. When doing a mission or playing with a goal in mind, I am VERY careful how I go.)

Cent Two:

Before VStep gets to fixing the sink mechanics, they should fix the Artificial Stupidity of the "AI" vessels. I can't count the number of times one of them has sunk me because they wouldn't yield, I never saw them, or couldn't stop/turn in time to avoid them.

One even turned RIGHT INTO ME once. Thankfully, I didn't sink -THAT- time
to add to the part about the non-yielding AI players, i could've sworn i read somewhere that in SSE the AI players are more aware and depending on the size and speed of your vessel they will react a certain way.
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: Biggles1975 on August 08, 2010, 13:06:56
Wow all thease people wanting to sink ships. Do they not want another shipsim to be made then?  Lets face it how many ship owners are going to let Vstep put it's ships in the game if they see loads of videos on youtube of people sinking the ships they own. I know if I was the boss of a shipping company I would not be happy if I saw a video of my ship being sunk in this game.
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: The Ferry Man on August 08, 2010, 13:11:04
Wow all thease people wanting to sink ships. Do they not want another shipsim to be made then?  Lets face it how many ship owners are going to let Vstep put it's ships in the game if they see loads of videos on youtube of people sinking the ships they own. I know if I was the boss of a shipping company I would not be happy if I saw a video of my ship being sunk in this game.

Thank you - this is the problem...

If it wasn't for idiots who love to just going around sinking ships, there would be more companies in game...

If these idiots just keep putting videos of the latest ship they have decided would be fun to ruin fine...

I will just wait by the door and shake hands with the companies as they walk out from letting their ships be put into the game...

Then what will these people say...?

 >:(

Sorry, Rant over
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: saltydog on August 08, 2010, 13:17:27
In my experience AI ships do avoid you.. They will either slow down or turn out of your way..
I just tried it,  put my Red Eagle in the path of AI ships..They all stopped..
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: larsdehaan on August 09, 2010, 09:27:02
to add to the part about the non-yielding AI players, i could've sworn i read somewhere that in SSE the AI players are more aware and depending on the size and speed of your vessel they will react a certain way.
so thus when im a small yacht with a broken engine and a large ai cargo ship comes at me it continues sailing? straight over me?
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: Dusty926 on August 15, 2010, 06:02:45
i like your point of view ;) and one of my friends told me that on one video this guy deployed life boats and he also told me after that the ship split in half(he also told me oil tankers can catch fire if overheated)so im thinking yes they made more realistic sinking and damage models in SSE
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: larsdehaan on August 15, 2010, 07:52:51
who doesn't like my point of view-awnser noone when  im in my yacht with an busted engine and a ai cargo ship comes
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: Aad The Pirate on August 15, 2010, 12:03:26
in sse titanic shoud bow first then break
p.s shoud have her sisters  :) ??? :captain:
[/color]
Meaning? Sorry, but or your English is bad, or I learned another kind of English then you did  :evil:

No... Just No...

This is Ship Simulator - not SHIPSINK SIMULATOR
My compliments to You, Ferry Man, for understanding what cap,foster is trying to write. I can't taste meat or fish out of his comment.  :evil:
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: dodweb on August 17, 2010, 03:10:03
Meaning? Sorry, but or your English is bad, or I learned another kind of English then you did  :evil:

Throwing stones in a glass house, are we?  ;)
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: rennie on August 17, 2010, 09:47:25
Sinking is good i think they should like spli :)t in half or the load floats around   
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: larsdehaan on August 17, 2010, 09:52:18
people please dont reply on that post above me
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: rennie on August 17, 2010, 09:53:54
sut up
people do reply plz plz plz plz plz plz plz plz plz
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: larsdehaan on August 17, 2010, 09:55:09
ok then this is a ship simulator not a sink simulator happy?
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: rennie on August 17, 2010, 09:56:39
alright but some people like to sink i dont but im just trying to say it should be more of a simulator
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: The Ferry Man on August 17, 2010, 09:57:24
sut up
people do reply plz plz plz plz plz plz plz plz plz


Don't tempt me...
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: rennie on August 17, 2010, 09:59:38
whats  the point in that quote everyone can see it  XD
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: The Ferry Man on August 17, 2010, 10:09:52
Because the next time I see a thread saying how they want sinking and breaking vessel and general badness, I will wirte a paragraph or two explaining why I dislike there ideas...

As stated before...

THIS IS SHIP SIMULATOR NOT SHIP SINK SIMULATOR
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: marcstrat on August 17, 2010, 10:43:56
@Rennie,
I've seen that you are only a little over 6 months registered here on this forum.I explain first,in the first edition of the game(2006) we did not have a sinking possibility.Most of the members wanted in the new version(2008),if that could be arranged.
2008 came out,and yes it was in the game on most of the vessels.
However, by having that also alot of trouble started,because me and several other shipsim players were not longer in the possibility to play the game as it was ment.Some of the members found it very enjoying to start hitting us(just for fun)while we were in the middle of some manouvre for docking,or they came to us with the resquevessel(Arie visser) and asked that they could tow me while i was steering the vlcc vessel.When i told him not,he came along side and rammed in to me.Result i sunk,and he left the server.
For us there was not much fun anymore.
If it was on me,it would be just damage to the vessel,and no longer possibility to sink.
I hope you understand this vision.
Marc
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: The Ferry Man on August 17, 2010, 10:45:37
If it was on me,it would be just damage to the vessel,and no longer possibility to sink.
I hope you understand this vision.
Marc

I would prefer that too

Just s message that comes up stating something like mission failed - Vessel sunk

or something like that.
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: Biggles1975 on August 17, 2010, 11:23:47
@Rennie,


If it was on me,it would be just damage to the vessel,and no longer possibility to sink.
I hope you understand this vision.
Marc

I think that is a great idea. Vstep should make a patch or change it before release so that is all you can do damage the ship not sink it. Maybe then other companys will allow it's ships in the game as there will be noway for the silly kids putting videos of ships sinking in this game up on youtube as you can't sink them.
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: Matthew Brown on August 17, 2010, 11:54:51
Agreed  :2thumbs:
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: trains on August 17, 2010, 16:41:27
Well the point of a simulator is realism, but the deliberate sinkings is too much. Asking for the game to be modified like that 10 days before release, might result in another delay. But maybe in a patch the multiplayer servers can be updated to not allow sinkings.

I, as myself, see the sinking feature as a good way to practice if you were really on a sinking ship. With the new deployables, the sinking feature will be more realistic than in SS08, as we can save ourself. But maybe a no sinking or damage update for multiplayer. If you don't agree with me, then you don't. I'm not trying to start a huge argument, so if that happens, I am not responsable since it's not a matter to fight over.

So the sinking feature being fully taken out will result in an edit in the game and a possible delay. A patch that takes that out, takes out realism and a good way to practice evacuating a sinking vessel. So I'm gonna stick with my idea and say maybe a patch to remove sinking and damage from multiplayer.

Scott
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: Aad The Pirate on August 17, 2010, 17:00:23
Reading all this posts about sinking there are only two ways where it is meaningful to let a vessel sink. One option would be using an out of commision vessel to form an artifical reef. I've seen one or two missions just written for that purpose.
Another option would be to rescue passengers and/or crew from a vessel before that damaged vessel sinks. There are one or two missions I know about where that is the case.
However, it would be meaningless to wait near that vessel just to watch it sink. Isn't it more realistic to rescue those people and then rush off to the nearest point of safeness?
I suppose that there is an option in the mission builder to let a vessel sink without ramming it or run it into a barrier/quai/another vessel etc. etc.
People who have fun in ramming other ships just for the joy of it are in my opinion the same people who have joy in pulling out a flies legs.
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: trains on August 17, 2010, 17:11:49
Reading all this posts about sinking there are only two ways where it is meaningful to let a vessel sink . One option would be using an out of commision vessel to form an artifical reef. I've seen one or two missions just written for that purpose.
Another option would be to rescue passengers and/or crew from a vessel before that damaged vessel sinks. There are one or two missions I know about where that is the case.
However, it would be meaningless to wait near that vessel just to watch it sink. Isn't it more realistic to rescue those people and then rush off to the nearest point of safeness?
I suppose that there is an option in the mission builder to let a vessel sink without ramming it or run it into a barrier/quai/another vessel etc. etc.
People who have fun in ramming other ships just for the joy of it are in my opinion the same people who have joy in pulling out a flies legs.


Looking at your post, I highlighted two main points. It is true ships are sent down as reefs. That is a great point. And so is rescuing people then rushing away. But of course it's also realistic to be able to sail the lifeboats after going to your appropriate stations. Then you deploy the lifeboat and sail away. So that's why I think the sinking feature should be left in.

Also, Frank did say they were planning co-op mulitplayer, so maybe some scnearios will be in that. but the deliberate sinking should be taken more seriously. Or have a sinking server where everyone can get together and just hit their ships(maybe after they sink each other, they'll get annoyed with it too)

Scott
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: The Ferry Man on August 17, 2010, 17:13:41
The problem is, companies don't want people putting YouTube videos of their ships sinking - its not good for business/publicity

Even when launching Lifeboats (assuming SSE has this facility) you don't really need the boat to be sinking...
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: trains on August 17, 2010, 17:41:43
True. Of course we all know it's not real footage. But if people do make those videos, Ship Simulator does have it's share of fictional ships(still based on blue-prints) that could be used instead.

In my opinion, this debates gonna be up for a long time ::)

Scott
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: clanky on August 17, 2010, 18:49:05
In my opinion, this debates gonna be up for a long time ::)

The debate can go on for ever and a day, but VStep won't do anything about it.
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: rennie on August 17, 2010, 18:54:38
sometimes ship sinking can be good for missions but i agree i hate it when people put youre ship sinking on you tube its bad for reputations
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: Aad The Pirate on September 20, 2010, 22:41:31
The problem is, companies don't want people putting YouTube videos of their ships sinking - its not good for business/publicity

Even when launching Lifeboats (assuming SSE has this facility) you don't really need the boat to be sinking...
Could that be the reason that, for example, the Pride of Rotterdam doesn't have her name anymore in the SSE version?
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: The Ferry Man on September 20, 2010, 22:43:57
Could that be the reason that, for example, the Pride of Rotterdam doesn't have her name anymore in the SSE version?

Could well be...  :(
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: Capt L.Henry on September 20, 2010, 22:49:16
Yes, the seamulator thing was a joke / its even worse than Virtual Sailor - but seamulator can show us, how lucky we are with SS06/08 - take a look

yikes your right tht sea sim looks like something made to entertain a 3 year old
THANK U VSTEP!!!!! for making sure we didnt have to be like SeaSim over there
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: alexjuscg on September 21, 2010, 08:00:59
Most people calling for more “realistic” sinking have only a foggy notion of how ships sink based on romanticized paintings of Titanic and Hollywood hyperbole.

 :doh:

Your comments really prove that the majority of your maritime knowlage comes from what you see in video games, and that your real world knowlege is lacking or non existent, which may not be any fault of your own but i fell as though i should fill you in on a few points that your comments have made me think of. in most cases when a vessel sinks it will list (that means go side to side) or heel (pitch forward or astern) now the reason for this is when a vessel is damaged water enters the hull  creating an effect known as free communication, this is where the flow of water into and out of the vessel is unrestricted. thus flooding the compartment that was damaged, now if watertight integrity was set then no big deal the space will flood and as long as it is not a major space the ship will survive, if watertight integrity was not properly set and a door or fitting was left open then the vessel will start to down flood and more spaces will become compremised. at a certin point (different with every vessel, and every situation as far as what was damaged) part of the boat is going to start "sinking", this is obviously due to the added weight, which has now changed the center of gravity and center of bouyancy, offten this results in the oppsite portion of the vessel to start to "come out" of the water. now often times when you see a boat that has (for example) the bow completly submerged and the stern nearly vertical this is because air has been trapped in that portion of the vessel eventually it will sink and it will be the "hollywood way" you mentioned on almost all of the cases that i have responded to not once have i seen an vessel go down equally both on its bow and its stern. the damaged portion usually goes first as you mentioned with the titanic. i think that i have hit everything that i wanted to on that subject, im sure i have missed somthing however.

on the topic of realistic sinkings in a simulator eventually no matter how good of a captian you are in the game you WILL sink i promise, and when you do you will apreciate a LITTLE realism, nothing to the extent that i explained above. and i think that is one thing that VSTEP did really well on, minus the sensitivity, but they say that they have already worked that out.

http://cgvi.uscg.mil/media/main.php?g2_itemId=377627 
this boat slowly sank bow first until only the stern showed and stayed like that for a while and then away she went.

http://cgvi.uscg.mil/media/main.php?g2_itemId=106297
here is the MV Cougar Ace Listing hard to port, after her cargo (brand new mazdas) shifted in foul weather not a good day, all the vehicles were deemed no good by mazda and destroyed for liability reasons, you can see the USCG 378 in the background, same as whats in SSE

thats it for me,
Alexjuscg, OUT
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: skylabz0rz on September 21, 2010, 17:03:42
I have been lurking on here for a while and decided to finally chime in.

SS series, like many have mentioned, is a sailing simulator not really focused on sinking. I think what they have is fine. Too add graphics for a splitting ship, or damage caused by rushing water would be very taxing on the current computer systems.

For those that want a sinking simulator, may I suggest the Silent Hunter series?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3foDiz4ItII

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wfRCMv3sNo

Honestly, ships sink in many different ways, and to add that to a game would be pretty rough. The physics involved in such an operation would be pretty substantial not to mention it wouldn't add that much to a game.

Then, like others have said, you would get companies not wanting their logo going to the bottom of the sea.

There are plenty of life videos of ships going down on YouTube as well. Even on US TV, the Discovery channel did an entire hour documentary on sinking an air craft carrier for an artificial reef. Needless to say, it took a while for her to go down. They had to set explosives off at precise time to get her to lay on her keel so it wouldn't be dangerous for divers.

The only way ships going down abnormally fast would be breaking apart, explosions, warfare, capsizing, rouge waves, etc. Unless you want to spend 30-120 minutes watching one go down, it's a waste of resources (programmer and computer) to add that into the game.
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: rjwhyte09 on September 22, 2010, 17:45:02
yeah they do i sank pride of rotterdam but i dont have a good pictures she sticked in the air like titanic dead cool it took ages but it was really cool

do you no how to get pictures took of the ship because it only works on walk through  :captain:
Title: Re: life like sinking
Post by: Aad The Pirate on September 22, 2010, 19:06:47
Alas, in SSE it's a bit different then it was in SS08. There was a special photo-button, or you could take pictures by pressing F7.
Here, in SSE, you need an extra program like FRAPS, to take pictures (or make movies).
You'll find it at www.fraps.com , the evaluation copy is free of charge, just gives a bit of advertising in the top of the movie. Not sure about the pictures 'cause I use the pay-ware version.
Maybe later, after releasing of patch 1.4.29.300 it will be possible to do it the SS08 way. Or Not  :evil: