Ship Simulator
English forum => Development corner => Topic started by: Penguin on August 15, 2008, 22:10:05
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This topic is focused on discussing how the ship simulator steering could / should become enhanced in such a way that home-built azimuth-controlling units will be supported.
First of all to make sure that we do not misunderstand each other a short steering mode information:
ARCADE mode: is selected when precision steering and azimuth override are both OFF.
PRECISION STEERING mode: - is self explanatory -
AZIMUTH OVERRIDE mode: is called "Azimuth Arcade steering" in my German ShipSim-Version - so pls. don't be irritated about two "Arcade" modes.
The plan is that the home-made azimuth controlling unit should work as it's original, which you can see on Bugsier 2 and Ocean Star. The unit should consist of two single 360deg turnable controllers, each containing two potentiometers: One 360 degree potentiometer for the Azipod movement and another one for the thrust lever.
In the following a summary after some tests simulating one single controller (two potentiometers):
Test with 360° endless-potentiometer on Bugsier 2:
- the "azimuth-override" steering mode allows 90° pod-turns in each direction. That means:
I turn the potentiometer 180° and the pod only moves 90 degree.
- The azipod rudder-movement works independent from the thruster UNTIL I start to give positive or negative thrust.
Immediately after I use the second (thrust-) potentiometer thrust und rudder movement are linked/combined in a special way:
After rudder and thrust are linked, the rudder potentiometer also gives thrust - strange. ...but maybe a solution for azimuth-beginners, who are sailing by gamepad and need a simple steering.
- The 360° potentiometer jumps, when reaching it's own technical zero-point:
Remember: The pod moves 90° in each direction so it only has a range of 180° and when reaching the potentiometer's zero-point the pod suddenly skips the other non-reachable 180° and starts again at the beginning. To make it easier to understand an example:
Potentiometer's range: 0-180° . After 180° it skips the range 181-359° and starts again at 0°.
I wrote "unreachable 180°" - that might be confusing: When I start to give a little bit negative thrust, the whole thing switches and I get these "unreachable 180°"-range - as I already said: This must be a solution for azimuth-beginners. It's a simplified steering, probably optimized for simple gamepad maneuvers but not suitable for our purposes.
Test with 360° potentiometer on car-ferry "Red Eagle" (steering mode: simple arcade):
- The rudder can be turned 1:1, that means a 360° potentiometer turn provokes a 360° rudder turn.
So my impression is, that this principle of steering mode should be suitable for the azimuth-ships.
Three negative points while Red-Eagle tests:
- The 360° potentiometer doesn't turn exactly 360° (4-5 degree less), so there is a small skip (technical reasons).
- Between 356° and the zero-point there are interferences (technical reasons).
- When crossing 356° the needle on the ships indicator doesn't continue it's movement in direction to zero degree BUT it abruptly turns backwards the whole 356° until it reaches zero degree - it turns quite fast, but one can see it.
> End of summary <
What could be a solution?
Well, it wouldn't be a good idea to change the present steering modes because they work as they were planned. But: How about a new, fourth, "Azimuth real control" steering mode?!
The "azimuth real control" mode should be made so, that when you push the steering button on the keyboard, the pod turns 180deg. With a home-made "real" controller you can reach the between area. Same with thrust: When you push a thrust button on the keyboard, it should go all the way (but for thrust a 270deg potentiometer could be an inexpensive alternative).
An important point: Rudder and thrust need to work seperate (no further link/connection between azipod-movement and thrust as in "Azimuth override" mode).
If you're interested in the progress of the controller design, just have a look at this topic (including pictures of models):
> How to build my own controller [Page 3] < (http://www.shipsim.com/ShipSimForum/index.php/topic,4505.50.html).
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Hi All,
I agree with you penguin, that the addition of another steering mode similar to that of the red eagles steering ability and no connection between direction and thrust would be the way forward without taking away any of the current steering options.
I'm wondering if any of the devs could comment on how hard this would be to either design or impliment into the game.
Pigdog
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I agree with both. There should be an control mode like in the red eagle. Other wise you cannot control azimuth with a home made controller.
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Hi All,
I found this on the net might be better than a slip ring it has less noise, let me know your thoughts.
http://www.mercotac.com/html/331.html
Pigdog
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I had a look at the FAQ on the site.
"Rotating connectors" - sounds very interesting and it seems they have several advantages compared to slip rings.
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I think, that a normal connector from your mp3 player to your headset allso wil do the job.
There are people who build model cranes or excavators who use the same.
Think simple!
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I think, that a normal connector from your mp3 player to your headset allso wil do the job
How could that work, Sam?
Remember that you have three conductors.
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3?
I thought you had 2 in each control.
One for direction and one for throttle, isn't the throttle the only one where you need it for?
one potmeter = 3 contacts
one plug = 3 contacts
I allso saw a usb controller from Lbodnar on wich you can connect a rotary control.
That can turn unlimmited.
I'll look for it, that is better than a potmeter.
One question:
Potmeters can only turn 356° (unless if you buy 5 or 10 turn potmeters)
Why don't you just connect the throttle potentiometer with wire in stead of slip rings.
A potmeter can only turn 356°!
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I thought you had 2 in each control.
A misunderstanding: What I called "conductors" did you call "contacts", so you are right when you write that you need a solution for the three contacts from the thruster potentiometer.
I supposed that the mp3 connector you suggested, only had two "contacts".
With three contacts it could be worth a try.
Concerning LBodnar's USB controller I already tried to connect a rotary encoder with this unit.
It doesn't work in a satisfiying way:
The rotary encoder only has 16 detents and although it is adjustable by a small program, it's impossible to get the rudder turned 360deg after 16 detents. Each detent is about 5-10deg, i can't remember exactly.
Concerning your question:
You are right, the potentiometers mechanically only reach ~356° and then skip to 0, but there should be a chance to cover 360° by calibration.
By using wires instead of sliprings you are forced to turn the rudder completely back to come to zero degree. No doubt, that would work, too, but it's not exactly how it works in reality.
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Oh, now I understand, you want to modify a potmeter so that it can turn unlimited.
Great idea!
One tip: don't buy to expensive potmeters, beceaus they are verry well build.
Cheap ones are ease to disasemble and to remove the mechanical lock.
I still have a few cheap potentiometers and will see if I can remove the lock.
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Oh, now I understand, you want to modify a potmeter so that it can turn unlimited.
No, I use industrial potentiometers from VISHAY that turn 360° endless.
They cost about 13 EUR each, but I think they are worth the money.
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It need's to be trough bore (hole in the center) in order to work. Trust me, I have tried several designs and there is no way to do it, with solid slip ring, or any other device that doesn't have a hole. With out the hole, you cannot get the rotation movement to the 360 pot accuratly.
I have a new idea for the ball bearing slip ring. I will add washers (small metal plate with a hole in the center) both side of the ball bearing. Hopely this will help with the noise in the signal. I will make a new prototype in few days.
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It need's to be trough bore (hole in the center) in order to work. Trust me, I have tried several designs and there is no way to do it, with solid slip ring, or any other device that doesn't have a hole. With out the hole, you cannot get the rotation movement to the 360 pot accuratly.
I have a new idea for the ball bearing slip ring. I will add washers (small metal plate with a hole in the center) both side of the ball bearing. Hopely this will help with the noise in the signal. I will make a new prototype in few days.
There are potmeters with a hole in it.
I'll see if I can find anything for you.
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Thanks. I tried, but had poor replies... If there would be one for reasonable price, then I can use a telephone cord untagle thingy as a slip ring ;D Costs like 3 euros and can carry audio signals, that are much more demanding...
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look for 'instel potmeter'
That is the Dutch name for it.
A lot of them don't have a hole, but you can easely bore that out.
Another solution is a gear with a verry big hole. on the the turning part and a gear on a potmeter.
you can put a tube trough the gear where you can put wire trough.
The drawing explanes it all.
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That is a very nice idea. So as I see it, you just need same size gears? Why didn't I think of that :) I think that this can be done cost efectly by using the big gear from a RC-car. The hole need's to be only 5mm, and the gears already have holes. And in this design, I can use the telephone cord thingy.
I already have the gears since I have a RC-car and spare gears. The gear looks something like this:
(http://www.hobbylinna.fi/kauppa/images/spur49.jpg)
They cost something like 7 euros.
I think you cracked this one Sam. Thank you!
I will skip the slip ring prototype and move to testing the untagle thingy. If it works, we are done.
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Hmm... Sam and ekto, I've still no idea how this could work in an endless way. (http://www.cosgan.de/images/smilie/konfus/a015.gif)
The upper pot will turn and the wire connected with this pot will turn, too - or am I wrong?
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I was so happy about the new idea, I tested the untangle thingy already.
Penguin, One gear is in the center line connected to the rotary table. Second gear is connected to the rotary pot, and the pot is in the base, not in the center. The pot can be off axis as much as both gears radius is. If the radius is 10mm, then the pot can be off axis 20mm.
This is the untagle thingy (plese give it a better name):
(http://opel.desteem.org/albums/userpics/10001/normal_24092008356.jpg)
I needed to modify it for the testing:
(http://opel.desteem.org/albums/userpics/10001/normal_24092008359.jpg)
The wire is wery poor for soldering:
(http://opel.desteem.org/albums/userpics/10001/normal_24092008360.jpg)
In the final design, there is no need to touch this part. I will use standard telephone connectors and move the soldering away from the part. This way it stays intact and can be replaced.
Soldering:
(http://opel.desteem.org/albums/userpics/10001/normal_24092008361.jpg)
Redy for testing:
(http://opel.desteem.org/albums/userpics/10001/normal_24092008362.jpg)
Testing:
(http://opel.desteem.org/albums/userpics/10001/normal_24092008363.jpg)
About the test... It works flawlesly :o No fibration or anything else. I could turn the joint, and the croshair stays still. If I move the pot, croshair moves smoothly.
Next thing is to model the geared version and then I'm ready to order the housing ;)
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Something verry important with gears is that you have a verry good bearing.
You shouldn't buy ball bearings, but make shure the two gears have a strong base.
Like two aluminium plates.
Ekto, what do you mean with ordering the housing?
Aren't you going to build one yourself?
I think buying a real housing is verry expensive.
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Good work guy's, I may have to rethink my housing to have space for gears but it should work, good idea Sam.
Do the telephone untangle things have a proper name they are exactly what we need and would solve a whole host of problems.
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Something verry important with gears is that you have a verry good bearing.
You shouldn't buy ball bearings, but make shure the two gears have a strong base.
Like two aluminium plates.
Ekto, what do you mean with ordering the housing?
Aren't you going to build one yourself?
I think buying a real housing is verry expensive.
My parts are going to be machined with a computer controlled milling machine:
(http://www.tandwielen.nl/wp-content/uploads/hermle-c40-custom.jpg)
Example picture
Cause my job, I know many companies that does this and I was able to get the machining and the material for a really low price. But it doesn't mean that someone else could not do it with a drill and saw. The design is done so, that you could do it. But in my case, I get ready parts for price that other pay of the material.
I cannot tell any exact numbers yet, but I think I can get a ready machined controller for like 50 euros, or even less, depending of the new design. It doesn't matter, how complex the part is, just how many there are.
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Good work guy's, I may have to rethink my housing to have space for gears but it should work, good idea Sam.
Do the telephone untangle things have a proper name they are exactly what we need and would solve a whole host of problems.
Check what Google found:
http://www.shopping.com/xDN-telephone_accessories-phone_cord_detangler
The name is Phone Cord Detangler ;D
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I've just seen that Belkin do one £3.99 each on Amazon.
Do they turn 360 ekto? and the piece you cut off in your picture did that expose the wires and how did you attatch the wires into the other end?
I think this is the way to go definitely and the gearing idea is a must too, but both gears have to be the same size so I'll have to find four from somewhere, anybody got any ideas where to find them either in the UK or online? I was thinking along the lines of Mechano or something like that but I don't know if you can buy individual pieces or you have to buy a set.
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Pigdog,
RC-cars have gears. Just go to your local remote controlled car dealers website. And I'm not talking about Niko's or any other basic grosary store RC-car. Try searhing kyosho. It's one of the largest makers. I have a kyosho 1:10 Subaru with fuel engine. Out runs my 175 bhp real car when testing 0 - 50 Km/h ;D
Actually, just go http://www.hobbystores.co.uk/
Those gears are quate cheap (less then 10 euros) and there is a large varioty. The ball bearings that I tried earlier was from RC-shop.
And yes, the detangler turns 360 contineusly. I think you got a shop called Biltema there? They sell a tetangler for 2.5 euros and it looks like it's the same I got. I don't know where mine is from, cause I toked it from my work phone ;)
Cause I'm trying to cut the cost of the project, I bough all my soldering stuff from Biltema. They are not wery high quality, but they work just fine.
Edit: You might not have the Biltema, but you have Bauhaus? I think there you might find those...
Edit2: Some how I confused you with Pinguin and offered German links ::) I corrected the links...
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Ah, so you are going to cnc mill it ;D
I wish I had acces to a cnc machine.
In wich material?
Aluminium, plastic?
Out of one massive peace or plates?
This is going to be interesting! ;)
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Plates and cylinders. Material is going to be some basic hard black plastic. Some parts are also going to be turned in lathe, before milling to assure they are round and the holes are center...
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hi all, I have posted my progress of my build on the 'how to build' topic in general discussions as I've rebuilt my other controls.
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Nice going pig dog. I think you will finish before me ;) Do you have a stearing wheel also?
I too have made some progress, altough I've been really busy at my work and next week will be quote full.
I finally bough the second gear and ordered 3 more gears. With the two gears I was able to measure the length between axis lines. Here is some pics of the design:
(http://opel.desteem.org/albums/userpics/10001/Ratasohjain1.jpg)
It's 16cm wide and 13 cm in height. The base is 9 cm in heigth.
(http://opel.desteem.org/albums/userpics/10001/Ratasohjain2.jpg)
The untangler is not yet in the model since I need to think what is the best model. It will be positioned under the gear.
(http://opel.desteem.org/albums/userpics/10001/Ratasohjain3.jpg)
Here you can see how the gears work. with the gear idea, I can ofset the pot from the center line, so the wire can go trough.
(http://opel.desteem.org/albums/userpics/10001/Ratasohjain4.jpg)
The base is made from 3 different plates. The upper space is for the horizontal potentiometer. The wire comes out from the back of the pot and then goes trough a hole in the center line.
The center space is for the gears. It's pretty since it has only few holes.
The bottom space is for wires and the vertical pot. There is a small hole in the "up" side where the wire goes out.
Next step is to search correct srews and the control stick.
Because the accuracy of the gear holes, CNC-machine is needded. After that decision, I made the design knowing I will use a CNC-machine. So this is now designed so that you cannot make it with out a CNC, but the plus side is that there is less parts, so the price might be less that 50 euros...(http://)
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looking good, I'm having to go with 3 gear wheels to offset the 360 pot but it gives it a good bit of resistance when turning.
Still waiting for my untanglers to turn up, once they're here I can solder up and start using it.
I haven't gone with a seperate wheel I'll just use the azimuth controls for conventional ship steering.
The beauty is they will work well with things like red jet 4 etc.
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One thing that I've been thinking is that, with a normal leaver, how much you can turn it? Because when I put my fist in a horizontal direction, I can turn it left or right about 50 decrees. When I put my fist in vertical direction, I can turn it inwards about 90 decrees and outwards 60 decrees. How much can you (pig dog) turn your leaver wih out changing grip?
The only reason that I'm thinking about sticks is that I think it might be easyer to handle. Altough with a stick, I think it's harder to turn the direction, when throtle is 0%. I might need to turn the base with my palm, and then turn the throtle.
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I can set the throttles and turn the units by holding the sides but I've found that I can move them very easily I don't have to move them too much and they feel like the real thing.
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Things has moved forward. After cracking the main problems of the controller, I've been thinking about the small details. Now I have finnished all.
The first thing that I'm going to build is this connection box:
(http://opel.desteem.org/albums/userpics/10001/kokonaisuus5.jpg)
This will connect both controllers to the chip. Here's an outside picture:
(http://opel.desteem.org/albums/userpics/10001/kokonaisuus4.jpg)
I have ordered the box and the connectors. It seams that the chip has standard holes, so it should fit the box perfectly. The model of the box is from the company that makes the boxes. When I moved the chip inside the box, I noticed that the holes mached :o The connectors are MiniDin 6 pin. Same's as you have in your keyboard:
(http://opel.desteem.org/albums/userpics/10001/kokonaisuus3.jpg)
The controller has had some changes. I changed the throtle pot to the Vishey 248-model, cause it's cheaper and has more friction. This way the stick might not fall down on it's own:
(http://opel.desteem.org/albums/userpics/10001/kokonaisuus1.jpg)
Here's the new pot:
(http://opel.desteem.org/albums/userpics/10001/kokonaisuus2.jpg)
This is what it should look around my lap top:
(http://opel.desteem.org/albums/userpics/10001/kokonaisuus6.jpg)
After I have build the connection box, I can take accurate mesurements from the Spambot MiniDin connector. Then I can order the plastics for the controller. I think this could hapen some time next week...
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Nice work ekto, I didn't think about using the plugs good idea, I had trouble with the phone untanglers and have been at work since no time to continue my build but I managed to get the testing of the throttles done they work really well, just got to rig up and mount the steering pots.
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Nice work ekto, I didn't think about using the plugs good idea, I had trouble with the phone untanglers and have been at work since no time to continue my build but I managed to get the testing of the throttles done they work really well, just got to rig up and mount the steering pots.
If you strip the untangler, it will go weak. But if you connect a telepfone cord to the untangler and then do the soldering on the cord, it should be stronger. The telephone cords connector keeps the untangler's contactors in place. So do not do like I did in the prototype...
I had one of those in my work phone for years and it never failed...
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Since I'm pretty close of ordering the plastics, I would like to know next.
Have any of you heard anything from the devs about making the controls work? I know that we need to make the first step, by building the devices, but it would be nice to know that they have even noticed this. I'm going to build mine anyway, but it would be nice to know, that this thing would not just sit on the shelf of my closet for the coming years...
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Here's a litle update of the situation. The plastics have been ordered a week ago, but I heard that the lathe is busted, so the delivery time is at least two weeks. Everything else I already have.
I put some more information after the plastics have arrived.
Still no word from the devs ???
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Enclosed two pictures showing how I try to fix two conduit boxes to let them work together as one single drive controller (click > here < (http://www.shipsim.com/ShipSimForum/index.php/topic,4505.msg127903.html#msg127903)to see how it could look like when finished).
It's quite tricky to let the whole thing work (I hope it will work).
The next step to do will be fixing some polystyrene within conduit box #2 so it can hold the potentiometer. The screw nut has to be brought into box #2 and will be tightened through the box' neck on the top.
All this stuff just as an idea.
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Hi Penguin,
Thats the same way I mounted the throttle pot, I used some wire mesh and just made the hole bigger to take the pot and bridged the conduit box as you have, it works fine.
One piece of advice though, when you fix the other conduit box you may have to put something in between the two boxes to give a little more resistance as I found when you push the throttle lever fwd a little it falls down there was not enough physical resistance in the pot itself. I've used some window and door draught excluder that has a sticky tape on one side and a soft rubber on the other gives a nice resistance.
Apart from that it works ok, it's just the in game controls for the azipod ships that need to change for the next release or soon hopefully so we can use these controls.
If nothing changes within the game we might have to rethink the whole potentiometer idea and go with switches instead, but another thought I had whilst testing was if the developers could split and seperate the precission steering into 3 seperate check boxesso you would have precission steering, throttles and thrusters so you can turn either one on or off or any combination of the 3 that would help when using joysticks and switches and buttons.
I went with extra long throttle cables and done away with the telephone untangler I didn't follow ekto's advice and went straight in and cut part off now it keeps coming apart and you can't solder the wires together too well as the space is limited, so now I have enough slack in the cable to allow at least two 360 degree turns.
Good luck with it keep us up to date with your progress.
pigdog
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It's been a while since my last post, but now there has been some progress. The machine thay decided to use for these parts is brand new and quote complicated. This is an example pic of he machine:
(http://www.ipnews.com/archives/general_editorials/jan03/pics/Daewoo-Puma-2000SY.jpg)
It's a lathe that can also mill. After some hard learning, they have produced first parts of the controller:
(http://opel.desteem.org/albums/userpics/10001/normal_15122008416.jpg)
That is the part that keeps the 248-pot in place. You can see it in this picture:
(http://opel.desteem.org/albums/userpics/10001/normal_kokonaisuus1.jpg)
These are all practise parts. in these parts there is a small (+- 0.1 mm) errors in the center hole. I've been told that they have made also a perfect pair of that part and other as well. I will get some pics from the machinist soon so I can post them here.
Here is a pic of all the parts that needs to be produced:
(http://opel.desteem.org/albums/userpics/10001/osat.jpg)
I think that I can start assembly early next month, or I hope so :) But there is no rush as I haven't heard any news that there is going to be any changes to the game...
Edit: I found a video of the same machine as they are using: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbjW9okW_GE
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Here is the proof that I've been nice this year:
(http://opel.desteem.org/albums/userpics/10001/22122008423.jpg)
Santa Claus came early this year :D
Here's a pic of the size. I just stacked the pieces:
(http://opel.desteem.org/albums/userpics/10001/22122008424.jpg)
Merry cristmas to you all !
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Wow, that is looking great!
I see you have some open room at the bottom.
Maybe you can put some lead in it so that your units don't move on your desk when you turn them.
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At this moment they weight roughly one Kg. I'l need to do some drilling etc before things will fit, but it looks good. Wheels sit perfeclty and the pot holes are very tight. The center of the bases are done wrong. The hole is couple of mm too small and the island is too high. But I got manual mill and a Lathe on my disposal, so it can be fixed. There is no idea to make new ones, since the material (200mm diameter pole) is 450 euros per meter :o
I still think it will take a month or so, before everything is ready.
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Well, when they are finished, I am shure they will be great.
Suddenly my control unit looks horrible when I see this :P
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Hi All,
I've been doing some testing incase the controls for azimuth driven vessels isn't changed in the next release of SS.
Instead of pots i've been testing with buttons and the combined steering/throttle units I built for azimuth vessels and they work ok but the main problem I had was keeping the control lever at a desired position, i've still yet to try fixing springs to them to see if they will only push the button when pressure is applied to the throttle or steering control.
Someone did mention about using parts from a mouse, does anyone know how this would work? what are the signals given off a mouse?
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If they don't change it, we just need to figure out, how to out put the pot location information so that it's similar to the X and Y-axis joystick. Some kind of software...
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I've been doing some testing with different versions of that as well and i think it will be difficult to get right as you would still need precission steering enabled but that reads the pots as either full on or off no inbetween.
One idea that may work is if the developers could seperate the controls so you could have precission steering, engines and thrusters all in seperate check boxes then you could set it up how you like so you can use a combination of pots and buttons.