Ship Simulator
English forum => Ship Simulator 2008 => General discussions => Topic started by: Dave M on May 30, 2008, 21:03:32
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Congratulations groennegaard.
See this topic; http://www.shipsim.com/ShipSimForum/index.php/topic,7778.0.html
I think that the Pride of Rotterdam has come of age. It doesn't feel like a speedboat any more!
The lag between applying wheel and the ship starting to turn, the continued turn after you take wheel off and the general feel is much more of a ship than it has ever been. Thanks very much for your hard work, the result is very good.
Regards, Dave
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Thanks Dave, I'm glad that you like it - I really appreciate your feedback. :)
The documentation I made for the model is waiting for approval. The documentation includes general data, turning tests, zig-zag tests and curves for acceleration, coasting and crash stop. I hope to see it out soon.
Kind regards
Jacob
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also from me big congratulations. its now a real challenge to careully manouver in and out the berth in rotterdam, you have to think forward and calculate not immediate motions, like it should be!
the best dynamics of all ships, keep on pushing realizing it in other vessels!
good work!
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currently witholding judgement on the POR.
she feels very much like a lump of lead.
Admittedly the ship is just short of 60,000 brz/gt. (Design deadweight 8,800t, Scantling deadweight 10,350t), however the sim cannot be made accurate by setting the parameters for ships of a similar size etc.
Both the Pride of Hull and Pride of Rotterdam are very overpowered so do react to commands quicker than the norm and also are very light on the rudder. I have been experimenting on totally calm seas with no wind and the ship for me simply is not responding like the real ship does.
Have tried to turn the ship using the standard manuvering techniques of low speed, from stop. With one engine ahead and one astern with the rudder full over for tight turns and the movement is very slow.
With all that said, I am going to spend some more time evaluating the POR but will more than likely act on advice from VSTEP in the past and replace the dynamics file with the older one.
Am onboard the POR is September and be having a chat with the Captain, so will see if I can get him to have a "sim" experience.
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Hi ferryenthusiast :)
If P&O had supplied VSTEP or me with the original sea trial report, everything would have been much easier.
If you compare the model's behavior to similar vessels you will realize that it still reacts rather quickly. I have done some zig-zag tests with the model and when the documentation is released, you will see that the overshoot angles are quite low compare to similar vessels. However the effect of applying counter rudder may not be as significant as desired, but that is due to the design of the dynamics-engine (I think... ;) I did what I could to make it more significant, but without the desired result). Hopefully that will be improved for the next SS.
The previous version of PoR is underpowered (couldn't reach 22 knots) and there has too much hull resistance, making the vessel stop moving in no time. By lowering the resistance, increasing power and ruddereffect, I actually increased the effect of applying counter rudder and got acceleration/coasting stop/crash stop curves which match real life patterns.
If you are going to chat with the captain, would you then do me a favour and ask him if he could supply us with the original sea trial report?
Regards
Jacob
EDIT: Spelling.
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Hi Jacob
If you let me have a list of questions you would like answering, I will certainly do what I can when onboard in September.
Cheers
Paul
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Sounds great Paul :)
A copy of the sea trials report would be on top of the list. It will answer most of my questions regarding
- Turning tests
- Acceleration
- Coasting stop
- Crash stop
- 10 degrees zig-zag
- 20 degrees zig-zag
- Max ROT when using thrusters only (zero speed)
- Max ROT using all means (zero speed)
- Rudder area
- Rudder movement speed
- Windeffects
...and finally you could ask him to supply us with pictures of the bridge interior and windows to help VSTEP modellers to improve the view from the bridge (it's horrible as it is now... :-\ ).
Thanks :)
Jacob
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No problems, I have some bridge pictures somewhere taken a couple of years ago.
Will see if I am allowed to release these, I remember when I took them there was no mention of what I could and could not do with them apart from publishing them on the internet which was not allowed. But best to check first.
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I asked to see the bridge when i went on it just yesterday, and they said it wasn't allowed due to security, but i think posting pictures is fine - there is a picture of the PoR bridge on the P&O website....
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Yes, of course Paul. :)
@ NathanC
The bridge is normally off limits to 'civilians' due to the International Ship and Port Facility Security Code (ISPS). Thanks to our friends in America who couldn't get these rules implemented fast enough.
There is really nothing secret on the bridge, so all this secretiveness is related to ISPS. Pictures won't reveal anything, so I can't really see why pictures aren't allowed to be published. As you said, you can find a 360 degree bridgeview on their website.
However, the ISPS code does let us work in peace on the bridge. No curious visitors asking stupid questions... ;D
Jacob
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why dose the bridge on the game look so different to the real one
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Hi pauljanaway1 :)
Probably because it wasn't a goal to make it look like the real thing. A shame really, but yet again the ships have so many aspects that you can't get it all - especially not in the 2nd release.
Jacob
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ok yes it is a shame ship simulator should be more relistic
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I understand why it isn't 100% accurate to the real ship, but it does look a little bare, maybe a few more panels would be nice, like with the Ocean Star.
The bridge isn't the only thing that isn't like the real thing though, there are lots of little unimportant details that i love picking out ;D
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Hi Nathan.
Careful you don't join the ranks of rivet counters. ;D
I think they have a large enough membership already. ;)
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Sounds great Paul :)
A copy of the sea trials report would be on top of the list. It will answer most of my questions regarding
- Turning tests
- Acceleration
- Coasting stop
- Crash stop
- 10 degrees zig-zag
- 20 degrees zig-zag
- Max ROT when using thrusters only (zero speed)
- Max ROT using all means (zero speed)
- Rudder area
- Rudder movement speed
- Windeffects
...and finally you could ask him to supply us with pictures of the bridge interior and windows to help VSTEP modellers to improve the view from the bridge (it's horrible as it is now... :-\ ).
Thanks :)
Jacob
i,m sure he will get all this information being a passenger ... :)
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I still stick by my original post.
Ok from a purists point of view maybe it is not 100% POR but it is very much more realistic to handle than any version of POR in SS08 from 'version 1.0' to 'version 1.4.1'.
Thanks again Jacob
Regards, Dave
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i,m sure he will get all this information being a passenger ... :)
If you know the right people things may happen... ;) Then it doesn't matter if he is a passenger or not. I have retrieved such information on other vessels without even being a passenger, so I think it's worth a try. Don't you agree?
Jacob
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Careful you don't join the ranks of rivet counters. ;D
I think they have a large enough membership already. ;)
Are I'm included? :D
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I'm probably the worst one. When it comes to trains, I will spot rivets that are the wrong shape! ;D
Sad isn't it? :'(
But I do make sure that I keep a sense of reality about it. I don't expect perfection from a computer syste, It just isn't possible on a cheap PC running cheap software. Even the likes of NASA with all their funding and technical ability accept that simuators are never anything but poor reflections of real life.
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after now testing the turing i find that it is very poor i would even go to say worce than the titanic or latitude
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Here are some pics i took showing the real size and shapes of the bridge windows
(http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/6031/1000214vh0.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/2899/1000215bx4.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
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after now testing the turing i find that it is very poor i would even go to say worce than the titanic or latitude
Hi pauljanaway1
I'm very sad to hear that. May I ask you what experence you have with vessel dynamics and behaviour? Are you a ship's officer/engineer/naval architect? I'm just curious to know what you think is wrong and why you compare the PoR to Titanic and Latitude.
Regards
Jacob
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Here are some pics i took showing the real size and shapes of the bridge windows
Nice pictures Nathan. :) They clearly show the missing windows. Would be great if they were added to the PoR model for the next SS so that the feeling of berthing the ship from the brigdewing would be better.
Jacob
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Thanks ;D As the PoR is my favourite ship in the game, i use it often when available and i can see a big improvement - and that faulty bow thruster has gone
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Hi pauljanaway1
I'm very sad to hear that. May I ask you what experence you have with vessel dynamics and behaviour? Are you a ship's officer/engineer/naval architect? I'm just curious to know what you think is wrong and why you compare the PoR to Titanic and Latitude.
Regards
Jacob
am none of them i feel the the POR is slugish at turning but i did a test in game on a flat sea and at 15kn the POR has a slower turning speed taking 33 seconds to reach a turing speed of 30 degress where as at the same speed titaninc takes 15 seconeds to reach a turing speed of 30 degress
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Hi Pauljanaway1.
So what you really mean is that you, personally, don't approve of the changes?
You really need to make sure that you have sufficient competence before you claim something is wrong. If you don't like it, you should make it clear that it is your opinion, then that will avoid confusion.
Thanks. ;D
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I saw the PoR turning while using it (duuuhhh ::) ) and it reacts/turns quite quickly
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am none of them i feel the the POR is slugish at turning but i did a test in game on a flat sea and at 15kn the POR has a slower turning speed taking 33 seconds to reach a turing speed of 30 degress where as at the same speed titaninc takes 15 seconeds to reach a turing speed of 30 degress
But that is how such a vessel behaves... ::)
For instance, a vessel like the DFDS Dana Sirena takes 30 seconds to turn 35 degrees. This is even at full speed so at 65% speed, that number will of course be lower.
I have similar data from other passenger and ro/pax vessels, so I believe the data you've measured is fair.
Regards
Jacob
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I saw the PoR turning while using it (duuuhhh ::) ) and it reacts/turns quite quickly
Did you bring your stopwatch? ;) ;D
You probably saw it turn when manouevering where all means were used to make the vessel turn. Using thrusters combined with one propeller going ahead and the other one astern, you will of course reach a ROT far beyond 30 degrees/min.
Jacob
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it is my own opinone my first post reads
"i find that it is very poor i would even go to say worce than the titanic or latitude"
and then i showed that it turns slower. it might just be the titaninc was modeled wrong and the POR is right or the other way round all im saying is it seems very slow to turn for a moden ship
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Did you bring your stopwatch? ;) ;D
You probably saw it turn when manouevering where all means were used to make the vessel turn. Using thrusters combined with one propeller going ahead and the other one astern, you will of course reach a ROT far beyond 30 degrees/min.
Jacob
I saw it turning out at sea, and it was quite fast
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I saw it turning out at sea, and it was quite fast
If you make the model turn for a minute at full speed, ROT will be more than 83 degr/min - and that is quite fast... ;)
Jacob
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But when she was turning "fast" she was only turning about 20 degrees, and still doing it quickly
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But when she was turning "fast" she was only turning about 20 degrees, and still doing it quickly
Yes, that will probably take 40-45 seconds if you push it to the limit, but they never do that as no officer would be proud of having cleared all the tables in the restaurant at once... Ship Simulator is better suited for such experiments and there the PoR will do a 20 degree turn in 40 seconds. ;)
Jacob
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hmmm, strange, i'm oretty sure it took about 5-10 seconds to turn 20-30 degrees, i was outide and looking down the port side of the ship when it did this
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hmmm, strange, i'm oretty sure it took about 5-10 seconds to turn 20-30 degrees, i was outide and looking down the port side of the ship when it did this
Hi Nathan.
OK, so to take the slowest rate according to your figures,
20 degrees in 10 seconds = 120 degrees per minute.
3 minutes to turn completely in a circle.
Or the fastest rate,
30 degrees in 5 seconds = 360 degrees per minute
1 minute to turn completely in a circle.
As Groennegaard says, watch all the plates going flying off the tables in the restaurant!
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hmmm, strange, i'm oretty sure it took about 5-10 seconds to turn 20-30 degrees, i was outide and looking down the port side of the ship when it did this
That would be about 50% quicker than similar vessels for the slowest rate. Very fast indeed. Too fast I would say. I bet you had to struggle to keep upright... ;)
Jacob
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I will take a video to show you next time i visit her......
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I will take a video to show you next time i visit her......
Great! I'll be looking forward to that. My compliments to your youtube slideshow. Always interesting to see pictures and videos from the ships we play with in SS... :)
Jacob