Ship Simulator
English forum => Ship Simulator 2008 => General discussions => Topic started by: Breakr255 on March 29, 2008, 08:14:42
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Have the developers posted any type of tutorial for the Bugsier 2 tugboat. I believe they are Azimuth Drive tugs but are the drives placed near the bow or stern. Knowing their placement might give us all a better understanding of the way to maneuver it. It seemed as though the the Ocean Star took a while to figure out as well. So if anyone sees tutorials or vessel diagrams, please post them. I looked at the tug that it was modeled after but the controls are quite different.
Also, how do you go about making "skins" for vessels so you can apply your own design? thanks
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They are both forward of midships as you can see in the images here http://www.simondr.co.uk/stuff/wip/bugsier.html
Simon.
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the bug2 is a great little tug and shouldnt take that much working out...it took me all of...10 seconds doing the first mission with the bug2...shes a lovely handing vessle...and VERY powerful...(as i would hope being that she has a 64tonne bollard pull)
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There are some first videos about the "Bugsier 2" and it's manoeuvrebility posted here, but unfortunately the quality of the video isn't very good. I don't know why, because former videos have been fine...
B2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFa1h8CFd7M
B2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaDziUHPpFA
B2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-itBS68LTIs
B2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljvK4Mazb0w
You may look at the overlay controls here. I'm using precision steering. If I find a solution for a better quality, I'll make some with English descriptions too.
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I performed a crude bollard pull test today. 2 Bugsiers, vs a Sherpa. Bugsier 2's bollard pull is 63 tons. Fairmount Sherpa has a bollard pull of 205, but I had a hunch that 2 Bugsiers would be a close match in a 'tug-of-war'. I tied the B2s to each other, then connected them to the Sherpa. Placing them all on full ahead, I soon found myself laughing at how the B2's were pulling the Sherpa at a good 9knts! I'd say that in my opinion, the Bugsier 2 has a Bollard Pull of about double what it is in real life. This is good in my opinion though, as it works best for towing in the game. Still funny though. :)
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They are both forward of midships as you can see in the images here http://www.simondr.co.uk/stuff/wip/bugsier.html
Simon.
got any more ships from the game on this site?
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they are not for "this game" they were built for Virtual Sailor.
and they were all not bad apart from waverley which felt abit small..
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Does anyone know what the score is with the arcade azimuth steering check box and what key/joystick/controller combinations people are using for it.
I'm using the controller i built myself with real ship controls which has seperate throttle controls and seperate left and right steering controls but when it's in Arcade mode when I turn the left steering control L/R the revs on the left engine increase and when I put the wheel midships the revs decrease.
When I use the right steering control it moves L/R but the engine revs stay at 0 and my throttle controls are disabled, is this right or is it a problem.
when I'm not in arcade mode I have use of L/R throttles Both steering controls but they only turn slightly about 25 degrees total and when you turn them both to the left they flip round violently so you end up with one ahead and one astern.
Anybody got any thoughts, I've tried it with red jet 4 and the steering and engine controls are fine it just seems to be the azimuth drive ships.
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Good question, I have the same problem with a logitech game pad??
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I've tried every different combination of engine and rudder but it just isn't logical, where you think it should go it doesn't as I've also found out that when you go from ahead to astern just using the throttles the pod turns round the other way which means your steering is now in the opposite direction to which it needs to be (that is with arcade mode off)
With arcade mode on it makes even less sense.
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Hi
Many questions but the azimuth propulsion is very simpel to use.If you want the B2 to go ahead simply increase forward pitch and keep the white arrows pointing backwards.If you wants to stop reduce pitch and turn the azimuths 180 degrees so the white arrows point oposite of the way B2 is going.Pitch up and it will stop in a ship length(give or take).If you want B2 to move sidways, say to stb,Make port azimuth controller Face 45 degrees to the port from the bow so the propeller currant push B2 astern and to stb.Stb controller should be in 45 degrees to port counted from stern of B2 and propeller currant should push to the port and forward.The picht you would use is up to you ,but more pitch, should give quicker respone and sideways speed.You just use the oposite controller to counter act the movements of port azimuth since in this exsample we where suppose to have srb side to the quay
I use a mouse to controle heading of the azimuths and arrow up and down to controle pitch and offcourse the pitch only range from 0 to 100% in the green area.
Good luck if anything of this makes sence
Regds
Morten
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Thanks for that Morten,
I understand how the Azimuth tug works and how to control them I've worked on one, but in the game and the control setup I'm using it's impossible to use the steering controls it only steers if you use the keyboard and mouse but you don't control a real tug with a keyboard and mouse so my controller that I spent age's making is useless.
You have to have precision steering on which again effects the throttle controls and some other problems that don't make any sense at all so is there a problem with the design of the game in arcade mode, does anyone that uses a joystick have a similar problem? if so we should inform the developers so it can be sorted out.
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Pigdog
I agree with you entirely, if you are using a joystick then you should, as in real life be able to move the joystick for instance at an angle of 22.5 deg to port and the tug should go in that direction, the forward/reverse/sideways thrust should surely be linked. I seem to remember that on ships controlled by a joystick is was called 'point and go' ??
Rgds
Mike
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Thats right mike, you can have a joystick that will control both engines (rpm) and basic position of the pods usually by pushing the stick fwd, aft, left or right and then by twisting the top or hat switch you can control the steering.
The type I used was called a "lipstick" (as that was the manufacturer's name I think Lips) although it was more trouble than it's worth and if you were using it with your fire monitors it took the power away from the fire pumps so you ended up with a dribble coming from the monitors not ideal really.
My problem here within the game is my controller is unable to work correctly with the B2 when I'm in or out of precission steering as I'm using real ships controls here is the post that shows what I'm using and an outline of how I built them
http://www.shipsim.com/ShipSimForum/index.php/topic,4505.0.html
I've had to use the thruster controls for steering as the wheels don't work correctly with the B2 and I have to have precision steering on which effects the throttles when I engage the throttle into ahead on the first setting the throttle in the game just keeps going up till it's full ahead.
It's so annoying I can control it fine with the keyboard but I built the controller so I didn't have to use the keyboard for a little more realism, but thats gone out the window now.
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I prefer precision steering with the keyboard until I get a real 360 degree turnable joystick as used aboard! Everything else isn't realistic at all, so my "B2" obeys my keys and that's enough for now! ;D
Regard
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That will be expensive I guess bottman, I looked into buying two azimuth controls when building my controller they cost over £200 each and theres not many second hand ones about on the market.
I do think however something is not quite right with the azimuth controls in the game and the interface with joysticks, gamepads or other controllers either in arcade mode or not.
As I said before it works ok on the keyboard, but not very realistic at least with two joysticks you would get closer to the realism of handling the B2.
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I've set mine up to work just fine with my xbox 360 pad, but I've got the steering for both units on the one stick. There appears to be a bit of a glitch I've noticed (I think it's been covered here though already). When I put the units too hard left or right, the Engines increase to maximum (250 RPM) and stick there, very weird!
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Yes I think it is a joystick/controller problem maybe not acting correctly with the commands as the pods seem to do strange things however you set them up, one possible soloution would be to have the ability to have precision steering and precision engines on a seperate tick box that would overcome some of the problem, but not an easy fix.
Yes mine too stick at full revs but only the port unit even if I assign both engines to one control lever it's a bit wierd.
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Ok I have tried everything now over the past week to get the B2 to handle correctly with my controller and nothing seems to work.
I am convinced there may be a problem in how the steering has been set up for the B2, if not then why would you not have the same control range as you do with the Red Eagle (this has nothing to do with different propulsion systems!) but how the commands have been written for the game.
On the Red Eagle if you turn your steering controller (be it a joy stick or whatever) from midships (ahead) to hard over to port the steering needle will move until facing the opposite direction (astern) which should be the same for the B2 I don't understand why it isn't.
When precision steering and arcade mode are off you should be able to control it as above, it seems they have tried to cut out the movement from ahead to astern by making it jump from either position but not allowed for the steering angle correction so when you want to go astern your pod controls are reversed from their ahead position which means they are the wrong way round and when you try to go to steer astern it jumps back to ahead again.
Basically when you have arcade mode and precision steering off you should be able to move your steering contol the same as the red eagle, at the moment it only goes to a shallow angle when ahead and totally the wrong way when you want to go astern.
I was really looking forward to the B2 being released out of all the ships within the game but I'm finding it a real disapointment due to the handling issues with it, I built my controller with this type of propulsion system in mind but when they designed the new contol commands for the B2 I don't think they've taken the logical approach it seems set up for keyboard use only as thats the only way to control it with any degree of satisfaction but lacking in realism.
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Pigdog,
You should not confuse a VSP with the various types of azimuthing propellers. The operating principles are vastly different. Red Eagle is much easier to maneuver because it is not necessary to rotate propellers to face different directions. The direction of thrust of a VSP can change nearly instantaneously, but the response is deliberately slowed to avoid dangerous stress.
Also, because the VSP blades always turn in the same direction, there is no confusion between “pusher†and “puller†mode or between forward and reverse throttle.
Marty
Although the bug is a good tug, perhaps a better choice at this stage would have been a Voith Water Tractor because it would be easier for most players to handle.
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Thanks for that Marty,
I'm not confused about the difference between the propulsion systems, I did say in my post that
(this has nothing to do with different propulsion systems!)
I have worked on vessels with both types of these propulsion systems and schottol and voith tractor units and I have a very good understanding of how to handle them and how they operate in the real world, my problem is with the way in which the developers have decided to interpret the control inputs within the game, what I was saying is that it would be more logical and realistic to be able to use the maximum steering angles the same as you have on the red eagle for the B2, as the current set up does not imitate how a pod works on that kind of vessel when using joysticks.
With an azipod tug such as the B2, within the game you should be able to use any key, joystick and or controller to give you the desired helm input (similar to how the Red Eagle's maximum steering input does) this is the problem, it works ok if you use precision steering on the keyboard but when you try to use a controller or 2 joysticks for a little more realism it does not work correctly.
Even if you attatched two azipod controls to your computer it would not let you operate them as you could on the real thing because of the way the controls been implimented in the game.
I would have serious concerns if a real tug allowed you to have full throttle on one pod when you put the port steering control to 90 degrees port or stbd and no thrust at all on the stbd steering control without putting any throttle input on as it is when it is in arcade mode.
or
when you have no arcade mode or precision steering selected as you would for a controller that already is precision steering enabled (as mine is) you can only turn your pods 10 degrees port or stbd when going ahead and then it does something completely different when you go astern, from this I would assume that I had a lobster pot wrapped around my units if it done this in real life.
I believe there is a controller issue here, what do you use to control the B2 Marty, do you use 2 joysticks, do you use the keyboard or some other device?
I'd be interested to hear what people are using and if they are encountering any problems especially people who have used these propulsion systems in the real world.
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I like your idea's Pigdog, and I'll even say I agree. I'd love to be able to control both units separately, but can't due to the problems you listed above. Good post.
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If you have "New Horizons" there is a manual now already on your computer. Go to the "start menu" -> "Ship Simulator 2008" and you will find an Adobe version to click on which is "Ship Simulator 2008 Add-on manual". It is surprising what you will find there.
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Odd, I don't seem to have it.
I'll have a hunt :)
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I can't find it either, whats in it?
I've downloaded this version of NH is yours on disc Traddles or download?
Maybe one of the mods could post it up with the rest of the manuals for 2008 on the forum, please.
pigdog
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I don't have a manual with New Horizons either. Only V1.1 which came with the original disc.....
Where else can you find it Traddles as it didn't come with the download???
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I'm sorry folks if I have made a boo boo here. I am now not sure about what I said. The version of NH I have is a testers one so perhaps the manual is not included in the download version. If not, I am a little surprised. However the picture shows where it is on my machine.
Angus.
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Cheers anyway Traddles,
I would have thought it would be here http://www.shipsim.com/ShipSimForum/index.php/topic,4509.msg45292.html#msg45292 by now, but there may not be too much difference between that and the V.1 manual, maybe thats why it's not been put up there.
Is there anything specific in the NH manual regarding the B2 and controls etc?
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I find the Bugsier controls easy. Just use your keyboard arrows or put the power up to 100% and turn with the keyboard arrows. Although i understand if people want to do it the "proper" way
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I find using the numpad keys very nice indeed :)
I find it easier :)
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maybe I'll use the kettle or the microwave in that case to control the steering and engines ;)
Yes it's very easy with the keyboard but not very realistic is it?
Players should have a choice of what they use to control the vessels that suits them best.
I like the realism aspect of SS and whatever I can do to make it more realistic the better, thats why I built my own controller as it's easier for me to use as I have worked on ships and have used these controls in real life, the keyboard to me to control a ship is an alien experience but it just seems that the way the controls (especially for the B2) have been written into the game are for keyboard user's which I would imagine are the majority of user's.
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The version of New Horizons I have is, I think, the same as the boxed version from Lighthouse. Perhaps that is the difference.
pigdog,
There are instructions on how to control "Ocean Star", "Bugsier 2", connecting the "Herkules Atlas" to various barges and how to access the engine room of that vessel. I sincerely hope I have not dissapointed many folks. If I have please accept my apologies.
Angus.
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No problem Traddles,
Any information is good information,
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Here is the text of the manual, so without images, I don't see how to incorporate them too easily.
Nonetheless, it gives an idea.
General
The New Horizons add-on contains eight new vessels, of which two have a different way of controlling the engines and steering. The cruise ship and the modern tug are equipped with azimuth thrusters and rotating propellers. The propeller rotation replaces the need for conventional rudder blades behind fixed propellers. How to steer these vessels is explained in the following sections.
Another new vessel is the pushboat, which can be connected to four different barge combinations.
To connect the pushboat to a barge, a new icon was created under the Moorage icon, Barge. How to use this icon is explained in section 3. You can visit the engine room of the pushboat, as shown in image 4.
Controlling the cruise ship
Starting a free-roaming session with the cruise ship "Ocean Star" in the new Padstow environment will look like image 1.
Controlling the cruise ship with azimuth thrusters. Moving the cursor over the thruster control brings up several circles. The green circle is used for setting the forward thrust, the red circle for the reverse thrust, and the blue inner circle is used for setting the thruster rotation. You set the forward thrust by click-dragging the cursor up and down in the green circle. Similarly, you set the reverse thrust by click-dragging the cursor in the red circle. Lastly, you set the direction of the azimuth thruster by click-dragging the mouse left and right in the blue circle. This is best done in the bottom half of the blue circle.
To facilitate the steering, an adapted arcade mode was created for cursor steering. Cursor left will turn both thrusters 45 degrees left. Cursor up will (like always) set the engine at full thrust. So a combination of cursor left plus cursor up will set both engines full forward, rotated 45 degrees left, which will make the vessel turn right, since the thrusters are located at the back of the vessel. The simplified arcade steering mode conflicts with joystick steering. For joystick steering, an extra option was created, "Azimuth Arcade steering override".
Many more experienced players will prefer to use keyboard steering using the Precision steering setting under Settings - Controls. With this option, you can set the thruster power and rotation more precisely, and keep it in position after releasing the cursor keys. As always, you can map different keys for the port- and starboard engine, for maximum maneuvering control.
Controlling the modern harbour tug
The modern harbour tug "Bugsier 2" is also equipped with azimuth thrusters. These are controlled in a similar way to the cruise ship, with two important differences.
1. The azimuth thrusters of the tug cannot be set in reverse position. Instead, you have to rotate the thrusters around to reverse.
2. The thrusters are located at the front of the vessel, instead of at the back. Rotating them 45 degrees left will therefore make the vessel rotate left (port) instead of right, like the cruise ship. This is something you need to get used to.
Image 2. Bugsier 2 in Padstow. This thruster cannot be set in the reverse position. Instead, to reverse, you
need to rotate the thruster 180 degrees, by dragging the mouse left/right in the blue circle.
As with the cruise ship, the simplified arcade steering mode conflicts with joystick steering.
For joystick steering, tick the new option under Options - Controls, "Azimuth Arcade steering override".
Connecting barges to the pushboat
To connect the pushboat "Herkules Atlas" to a barge, a new icon was created under the Moorage icon, Barge. Starting a free-roaming session with the pushboat will show the vessel with one barge (image 3).
Image 3. To connect or disconnect a barge from the pushboat, click on the Moorage icon, then on Barge. Like with towing lines, clicking on the red cross will disconnect the barge. Clicking on a blue circle on the pushboat, and then on a blue circle on the barge, will create a connection between the two.
Visiting the pushboat's engine room
The pushboat is the only vessel in which you can visit the engine room. You can do this in walkthrough mode. Walk down the stairs to the lower deck. On the starboard side, you can enter the door to the engine room by clicking on it. When you come close to the right door, an icon will show up with a down arrow (image 4).
Image 4a. Engine room door of the pushboat. Click on the door to go into the engine room.
Image 4b.Inside the engine room. Image 4c. To go back up, click on the hatch in the corner, which shows the up arrow when you get close.
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Luc
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Thanks for that info LucAtC,
I pretty much sussed all that out by trial and error over the past week or so I think.
I guess I was right then if you connected a set of azimuth control handles to your computer they would not work as they do in real life, you would not be able to control the B2 with controls that were designed for controlling pods hmmmm.
Oh well it's the keyboard or nothing then I guess.
Cheers
Pigdog
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Well, it wasn't that hard, you know. And I am sorry that your controls/joysticks don't work like you wish.
Perhaps could you have a look at a freeware named "Joytokey (http://www.softpedia.com/get/Tweak/System-Tweak/JoyToKey.shtml)", which could solve your problem, at the condition that your controls are joystick like.
It works well, although I don't know how he could marry with ShipSim2008. (I only tried it with 18Wheels Haulin, Orbiter and ShipSim2006). Have a look it, though...
Regards,
Luc
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Thanks Luc I'll check that out.
Cheers
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I notice that there's mention of a "Azimuth Steering Override" checkbox in that manual suppliment. I tried that, and I must say that I'm quite disappointed in its operation. The real controllers have no link between direction and throttle and yet with the Azimuth Steering override, whenever I turn the rudder controls on my setup the throttle automatically increases. As such, I'm unable to control my movements with any precision.
Maybe VSTEP should just impliment the controls the same way they did the Voith controls on the Red Eagle. It works well and does what it should on the Bugsier 2 - "rudder" points the controller and "throttle" commands the throttle. The operation of Azipods is very simple and straightforward, I don't understand why VSTEP thinks it has to be complex like the way they've programmed it.
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I agree capflyer, I built my controls with the B2 and similar propulsion units and water jets in mind so that they can control twin engine, twin rudder vessels as well as single engine and rudder vessels with a more conventional setup, it does look like the controls are over complicated for what they need to do and a simpler system such as how the voith works would be much better and easier to control.
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I posted this in the other thread as well, but this diagram shows how I'd like to be able to set up my controller for the Bugsier. :)
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yes thats right thats how it should be Jayshum, I don't understand why they have tried to incorperate a joystick type control into the main controls, to do that you should have a seperate control stick that would operate all engines and all steering pods and thrusters.
I really hope it gets sorted.
pigdog