Ship Simulator

English forum => Vessel Design Group general => Development corner => Active Projects => Topic started by: Ciroton on January 17, 2013, 06:02:34

Title: HMS Queen Anne (Continued), HMS Queen Zelda and NCAS Alicorn
Post by: Ciroton on January 17, 2013, 06:02:34: Continuing on from the failed CCC entry, I have come into this a couple of years wiser, but not really any more skill than the last time. >>;; Ah well, I learn best on the fly and doing the Anne taught me a lot. Namely, it taught me that I know jack all about modeling in detail and that my Anne is less developed than I had originally thought.

That said, allow me to post some pictures.

~*HMS Queen Anne*~

(http://th05.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/f/2011/033/b/3/hms_queen_anne___realistic_by_ciroton-d38n60c.png)

Short Specs:

Length - 1000ft (304.8m)
Height (Keel to top of funnels) - 190ft (57.912m)
Beam - 140ft (42.672m)
Draft - 50ft (12.192m)
Service Speed/Top Speed - 25/30.25 knots

Power Plant:
3x [Unspecified] Diesel-electric generators.
4x Wartsila 16V46D azipod engines (18,480 kW each). 2 azimuthing.
(Unsure if engines will yield desired performance.)

Master To Do List:

- Fix textures
= Edit Error (Multiple texture file versions) [Solution: Eliminate all existing textures and re-apply using one file]
= Improve resolution [Possible Solution: Shrink model, apply textures and re-scale model with textures to desired size] <-- Would appreciate Google Sketchup consultation.

- Add model details.
- Fix Deck chairs and existing fixtures
- Figure out how to do transparent texturing.

~*HMS Queen Zelda*~

(http://imageshack.us/a/img826/673/queenzeldaprogress2.png)

Short Specs:

Length - 1000ft (304.8m)
Height (Keel to top of funnels) - 190ft (57.912m)
Beam - 140ft (42.672m)
Draft - 50ft (12.192m)
Service Speed/Top Speed - 25/30.25 knots

Power Plant:
5x Propeller Shafts
40 Double-ended (Six furnace) Scotch marine boilers
3x four-cylinder reciprocating triple-expansion steam engines, each producing 30,000 hp
2x high-pressure steam turbine engine. (Wing propellers)
(Unsure if engines will yield desired performance.)

Master To Do List:

- Complete Base Model
= Railings
= Cranes
= Ventilation
= Anchor/s
= Propellers and Propeller Shafts
= Deck Fixtures
= Signage?
= Bridge Fixtures
= Crow's nest and rigging
- Texture Model

~*NCAS Alicorn*~

(http://imageshack.us/a/img842/3070/ncasalicornprogress1.png)

Short Specs:

Length - 500ft (152.40m)
Height (Overall) - 150ft (25.72m) <-- Unsure statistic
Beam - 75ft (22.55m)
Draft - 20ft (6.10m)
Service Speed/Top Speed - 18/20 knots

Power Plant:
[Unknown]

Master To Do List:

- Complete Base Model
= Railings
= Cranes
= Ventilation
= Anchor/s
= Propellers and Propeller Shafts
= Deck Fixtures
= Signage?
= Bridge Fixtures
= Crow's nest and rigging
- Texture Model

(Suggestions on this ship are welcome!)
Title: Re: HMS Queen Anne (Continued), HMS Queen Zelda and NCAS Alicorn
Post by: Ciroton on September 09, 2014, 16:22:49: Just posting this to say that I am not dead and neither is this project. I've just been doing it when the mood suits me. To wit, for a long time I was having trouble with a specific part of the Zelda's design: her quintuple propellers.

That said, have an earlier screenshot of my progress first (not that anyone cares, lol).

(http://i.imgur.com/CXnUjjy.png)

And, for the stuff I managed to do in one bought of inspiration last night...

(http://i.imgur.com/1RtRO4A.png)

(http://i.imgur.com/g60SBUe.png)

I did the props and the casings for the shafts all by hand in sketchup, so they are not the best quality, but they illustrate the point. I am also not sure if they are all in the exact position, but for now they are satisfactory, especially since it was growing late.

I would still appreciate some help on the texture map aspect... and since another CCC isn't in the cards, I suppose I don't need to stick to the size they wanted. *Shrug*
Title: Re: HMS Queen Anne (Continued), HMS Queen Zelda and NCAS Alicorn
Post by: Dannypenguin on September 09, 2014, 16:30:30: They look nice, a lot better than any liner I have ever attempted! :doh:
Title: Re: HMS Queen Anne (Continued), HMS Queen Zelda and NCAS Alicorn
Post by: CaptainDCB123 on September 10, 2014, 15:59:02: That's some over the top kind of propulsion there..................................... most likely would need an extra large rudder to make all props be effective when turning.
Title: Re: HMS Queen Anne (Continued), HMS Queen Zelda and NCAS Alicorn
Post by: Mr Robville on September 10, 2014, 16:25:00: It's indeed a little overkill. ;) Technically wise, where would the engines for the outer propellers fit if the shafts are that close to the side of the hull. Just a little feedback, you are going well!
Title: Re: HMS Queen Anne (Continued), HMS Queen Zelda and NCAS Alicorn
Post by: Ciroton on September 12, 2014, 04:00:31: Quote from: CaptainDCB123 on September 10, 2014, 15:59:02
That's some over the top kind of propulsion there..................................... most likely would need an extra large rudder to make all props be effective when turning.

See all that space at the back, under the poop deck? That's basically all going to be one giant rudder. Turning sharply at speed would cause listing, but I'd rather break a couple of plates rather than crash the ship and kill people or cause extensive damage from a ram or glancing blow, since she cruises at about 28 knots. Lol

Quote from: Mr Robville on September 10, 2014, 16:25:00
It's indeed a little overkill. ;) Technically wise, where would the engines for the outer propellers fit if the shafts are that close to the side of the hull. Just a little feedback, you are going well!

I am quite aware of this situation, since it's always bugged me since conception. Her beam's around 42.7m (140ft) where Titanic had 28m (92ft), so if anywhere, her engine room would be towards the fore end of the #4 funnel. #5 funnel works, but only exhausts when she's going at flank speed (or 31.25 knots) because it would be taking on motors controlling fans that gather smoke from the forward ends of the ship.

For now, since I don't have much of an interior plan laid out, I'm going to say the outboard engines are smaller and less powerful than the inboards. Maybe low-pressure turbines like Titanic's central.
Title: Re: HMS Queen Anne (Continued), HMS Queen Zelda and NCAS Alicorn
Post by: Mr Robville on September 12, 2014, 09:15:14: Quote from: Ciroton on September 12, 2014, 04:00:31
See all that space at the back, under the poop deck? That's basically all going to be one giant rudder. Turning sharply at speed would cause listing, but I'd rather break a couple of plates rather than crash the ship and kill people or cause extensive damage from a ram or glancing blow, since she cruises at about 28 knots. Lol

Keep in mind that lost underwater hull space is lost bouancy. The enormous overhang would tilt the ship backwards.
A larger rudder doesn't necessarily mean the ship will have a faster turning rate. There needs to be a certain amount of thrust from the propellers against the rudder in order for it to be effective. Only the nearest propellers would have a direct effect on it, just as much as when the rudder would be a different size. Effective thrust only goes so far.
Title: Re: HMS Queen Anne (Continued), HMS Queen Zelda and NCAS Alicorn
Post by: Ciroton on September 12, 2014, 15:05:31: Quote from: Mr Robville on September 12, 2014, 09:15:14
Keep in mind that lost underwater hull space is lost bouancy. The enormous overhang would tilt the ship backwards.
A larger rudder doesn't necessarily mean the ship will have a faster turning rate. There needs to be a certain amount of thrust from the propellers against the rudder in order for it to be effective. Only the nearest propellers would have a direct effect on it, just as much as when the rudder would be a different size. Effective thrust only goes so far.

Funny enough, I had that thought last night before going off to bed. I made it that way because I read somewhere that ships of the day had rudders anywhere between 1/40th and 1/60th their length while some had then only 1/100th the overall length. In Queen Zelda terms, being a 1000m vessel, that would mean a rudder of 25m, 20m and 10m, respectively. I designed the hull around a 20m long rudder. It'd be an easy enough fix to pull out the hull some more and make the rudder smaller at a loss to some maneuverability.

It's not like she can't take a hit if it's unavoidable: she has a double-bottomed keel, and double armoured hull plates extending up to the superstructure. And I've also played with the idea of bisecting her watertight compartments, but I'm not sure how bad a list it would cause in a titanic-like scenario with multiple punctures on a single side if pumps could not keep up and ballast not able to mitigate it.

...

I think I realized a mistake, lol.

It's 1000 FEET not meters. That would be absurd. So... wow, looks like the rudder really is WAY over designed. ^^;;

So... using that stuff again, I'd need 7.62m (1/40th), 5.08m (1/60th) or 3.048m (1/100th). o.o;;
Title: Re: HMS Queen Anne (Continued), HMS Queen Zelda and NCAS Alicorn
Post by: CaptainDCB123 on September 12, 2014, 20:22:46: How about you add some foils to prevent listing or add 5 rudders fro each prop?
Title: Re: HMS Queen Anne (Continued), HMS Queen Zelda and NCAS Alicorn
Post by: Ciroton on September 13, 2014, 16:28:22: Quote from: Dannypenguin on September 09, 2014, 16:30:30
They look nice, a lot better than any liner I have ever attempted! :doh:

Thank you. ^^;;

Quote from: saltydog on September 12, 2014, 07:47:14
5 funnels? The last ship to have that was the Great Eastern.. ;)

Hey there! Long time, no see!

Quote from: CaptainDCB123 on September 12, 2014, 20:22:46
How about you add some foils to prevent listing or add 5 rudders fro each prop?

I'm designing her as if she was a period steamer (1900 or so) and I don't think they had foils or a rudder on each prop back then.
Title: Re: HMS Queen Anne (Continued), HMS Queen Zelda and NCAS Alicorn
Post by: Ciroton on September 18, 2014, 18:19:29: Okay, so I have three main ideas on how to do this, each with their pros and each with their cons. I'd like to know what some of you think I should do. I'd really like some feedback on this, even if I might choose a different option than what the consensus say, or one not listed at all.

1) Size and period accurate.

Pro: Lost of references and feasible for the ship type.
Con: Inability to turn much better than a oil tanker due to inadequate coverage of the props.

2) Over-sized rudder

Pro: Increased maneuverability at speed.
Con: Potential damage to turning motor, personal possessions and other items when turning at speed.

3) Three Rudders: One main, properly-sized rudder and two smaller ones on the wing props.

Pro: Full coverage on all props for maximum comfort and maneuverability, allowing all props to remain.
Con: Not period accurate, harder to maintain.
Title: Re: HMS Queen Anne (Continued), HMS Queen Zelda and NCAS Alicorn
Post by: CaptainDCB123 on September 18, 2014, 19:01:50: I would completely redesign the stern for 2-4 azipods to fit in there. Btw, what's inside that big box on which the 5th funnel stands?
Title: Re: HMS Queen Anne (Continued), HMS Queen Zelda and NCAS Alicorn
Post by: CaptainDCB123 on September 18, 2014, 19:03:16: Besides, aren't all these multifunneled models that I've seen through out this forum all are Titanic copycats?
Title: Re: HMS Queen Anne (Continued), HMS Queen Zelda and NCAS Alicorn
Post by: Ciroton on September 18, 2014, 20:59:53: Quote from: CaptainDCB123 on September 18, 2014, 19:01:50
I would completely redesign the stern for 2-4 azipods to fit in there.

I'm designing it as if it were constructed around 1900. So Azipods are absolutely out of the question.

Quote
Btw, what's inside that big box on which the 5th funnel stands?

Oh, crew quarters, storage, various other uses that I can find for it. On the boat deck, I was thinking of storing extra lifeboats in there and they are taken to the davits via tracks under the deck hidden by little hatches.

Quote from: CaptainDCB123 on September 18, 2014, 19:03:16
Besides, aren't all these multifunneled models that I've seen through out this forum all are Titanic copycats?

... Then you might as well say every other multi-funneled liner EVER built is a 'Titanic copycat'. There are Titanic influences, sure, but there are pieces of other liners in there too. For instance, the prow/Forecastle is based on the Mauritania/Lusitania. I take slight offense in my ship being written off as 'a Titanic copycat' just because it shares a few resemblances, which I might add, most ships of the day shared, but not usually on such a scale.
Title: Re: HMS Queen Anne (Continued), HMS Queen Zelda and NCAS Alicorn
Post by: CaptainDCB123 on September 18, 2014, 22:20:42: How about instead of having 5 shafts with 5 propellers on each, make it like 3 shafts but side ones will have contrarotating props so you would still have 5 props while having classic Titanic propulsion arrangement? Though then you would need to have twice as powerful machinery for the side props. Or you can spread the total number of bades you have in 5 props configuration across only 4 or 3 props arrangement?
Title: Re: HMS Queen Anne (Continued), HMS Queen Zelda and NCAS Alicorn
Post by: Ciroton on September 20, 2014, 16:03:31: Quote from: CaptainDCB123 on September 18, 2014, 22:20:42
How about instead of having 5 shafts with 5 propellers on each, make it like 3 shafts but side ones will have contrarotating props so you would still have 5 props while having classic Titanic propulsion arrangement? Though then you would need to have twice as powerful machinery for the side props. Or you can spread the total number of bades you have in 5 props configuration across only 4 or 3 props arrangement?

I'm not sure if contrarotational props would work especially well in water as opposed to air. Seems to me like they would cause a lot of vibration, turbulence and noise on a ship. Not to mention that they, nor aircraft where around in 1900. I'm also not sure about prop arrangement and how many she would need. I would say I am not 100% invested in her having five props and a speed of 30 knots for the sake of plausibility. I could go down to maybe four and 25, so she'd still be fast for the era.
Title: Re: HMS Queen Anne (Continued), HMS Queen Zelda and NCAS Alicorn
Post by: Mr Robville on September 20, 2014, 18:17:04: There's a PM for you.
Title: Re: HMS Queen Anne (Continued), HMS Queen Zelda and NCAS Alicorn
Post by: Ciroton on September 26, 2014, 00:10:13: Having thought about if for the past little while, I decided to completely overhaul my hull design. With it, I also settled the issue with my props and rudder, I hope. I have yet to design the actual rudder, but I feel I have at least turned a corner (lol, pun). Also, the new hull is all kinds of sleek. But enough chat, let's post her.

(http://i.imgur.com/Rd9MuCE.png)

Notice the lack of dint just about where the bridge is? Yeah, that annoyed me for a while and since I was redoing the stern anyway, I decided to fix that part while I was in DELFTship.

(http://i.imgur.com/Pnpygil.png)

So the engine rooms... I was thinking of having three of them, each watertight. A central one further astern would handle the central props and the two forward would handle the wing props. Also, the staggering could lend to more boilers, so the #5 Funnel can be a mix of ventilation and exhaust.

(http://i.imgur.com/RXjxPBU.png)

I've decided on 4 quadruple-bladed propellers for the propulsion. The fifth just would have been weird to fit in to the new hull. As you might have noticed in the above, the new stern section is influenced by the Lusitania/Mauritania.

(http://i.imgur.com/8PQ16iB.png)

One final shot for the heck of it to see how the new stern meshes into the poop deck and the much more pleasant bow curve. <3 Overall, I am really happy with this overhaul.
Title: Re: HMS Queen Anne (Continued), HMS Queen Zelda and NCAS Alicorn
Post by: Mr Robville on September 26, 2014, 07:38:37: I like what you've done with the new hull. Serves the ship way better! :thumbs:
Title: Re: HMS Queen Anne (Continued), HMS Queen Zelda and NCAS Alicorn
Post by: Ciroton on September 29, 2014, 19:12:02: So, I've done the rudder and it covers the area of all the props... but I am not sure about it. I mean, it looks a little long and I have no way I'd fix it. I also don't know if it's too wide or... I just don't know in general, so I'll post what I have and hope beyond hope that someone with a more keen eye for rudders tells me if anything is wrong and where did it go wrong.

(http://i.imgur.com/uH3Lgmj.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/Uw7CHR9.png)
Title: Re: HMS Queen Anne (Continued), HMS Queen Zelda and NCAS Alicorn
Post by: Ciroton on September 28, 2018, 23:55:07: I'M NOT DEAD! \o/ Updates on this abound!

(https://i.imgur.com/y0B78Rq.png)

They railings still exist; I've simply hidden them to reduce clutter for the viewing experience. They have not changed. Also, I am far more busy with real life, so this has taken a very far back seat. Most of what has changed is lore-related and specifications more than the model itself. They will be given in an attachment.

Now, visually, what has changed? Let's stop from the top; quite literally at that.

(https://i.imgur.com/SrsWdPV.png)

As you can see, the funnels are much less wide than they used to be and are also farther forward. #5's causing will be repurposed for passenger amenities and features. #3 is technically the tallest funnel as it travels through the break in Boat Deck's Superstructure vertically (Obscured by Sun Deck from this angle) before sweeping back with the others.

(https://i.imgur.com/TtC7KIj.png)

Rudder iteration #3. This one is the same height as the previous model, however, it is shorter with a bit of a counter-balance to it Honestly, this design is far more interesting, and would not cause as dramatic a turning circle when put hard-over in either direction.Default character model is there for scale. I need to make those geometries on the props hidden, but that can wait a while yet. I've also made the core of the rudder thicker and far more visible than it was previously being about 1m in diameter. (Rudder is 0.8m thick of solid steel)

Overall, I was inspired to do more work on this project thanks to another project in the making about the RMS Titanic where they are recreating the ship in virtual reality down to every last rivet, fixture and carving. I'm not sure if it would count as advertising or not, so I am not going to say the name of this in-development game at this time. Attached, you can find a brief stat and lore write-up I have done on the Zelda. Subject to change, of course.