Ship Simulator
English forum => Ship Simulator 2008 => General discussions => Topic started by: santi_leal on September 16, 2007, 18:40:59
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As i said before the patch, the movements of the fast ferry are not true and now that the patch has been released, i repeat the same. It has become an arcade game just and only...really a shame. This is a perfect way to loose people. Keep approaching...
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Which arade games have big ferries and the titanic?
I don't think it's an arcade game.
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I think the point he is making is that it is not 'SIMULATING' an actual ships controls. It handles more like an arcade game.
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Hi Santi leal
I'm sure the developers would be happy to hear your comments. Perhaps you could send Wout an email with your technical qualifications (which vessels you've been in command of etc) and how you think the dynamics should be improved.
Have you actually captained the Red Jet specifically or just these types of vessel. I mean, I assume you must have captained one...
Stu
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In what way do you think the movements of RJ4 are wrong?
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I'm not sure about the RJ4, but alot of ferries have individual (seperately controlled) rudders.
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Actually i´m in command of a 98 meters wave piercing catamaran ropax 880 passenger, that´s why i´m sure that the movements of the rj4 are not true. When you play with both jets, you can make two kinds of movements depending the position of the jets. Generally the parallel movements are done with both jets opened (about 15-18 degrees) and the turning movements with the jets closed. If you need any information, just tell me.
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Have you actually captained the Red Jet specifically or just these types of vessel. I mean, I assume you must have captained one...
Stu
And what about your technical qualifications, Stuart2007? :-*
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Actually i´m in command of a 98 meters wave piercing catamaran ropax 880 passenger, that´s why i´m sure that the movements of the rj4 are not true. When you play with both jets, you can make two kinds of movements depending the position of the jets. Generally the parallel movements are done with both jets opened (about 15-18 degrees) and the turning movements with the jets closed. If you need any information, just tell me.
None of the ships on SS 2008 handle anything like they do in real life. While the developers continue to make progress on this software, I believe that a "realistic" ship simulation available for personal computers is still a few years away. Baby steps, a little bit at a time. I did notice the developers now have the vessels slowing down as they ascend larger waves, this is a slight improvement. It all boils down to the physics of the game. The Red Jet 4 may be waterjet powered in real life, but in SS 2008, you might as well be controlling twin screws with twin rudders. The game version of the Red Jet 4 sure doesn't stop as fast as the real thing. Full speed, drop the buckets, all stop in 2.5 boat lengths. Everything at the stern of the vessel that wasn't fastened down is now at the front of the vessel.
I agree that the vessels do not handle correctly, but I also do not steer a boat with a mouse and a keyboard. You get used to the controls, you play the game, you either like it or not. It's totally up to you. ???
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To some extent I agree with the original comments, the ships do not handle exactly as they would in real life and if I had bought the game as a professional ship handling simulator I would not be happy at all, however as a game I think that it is fantastic.
I don't know what is involved in the technical side of the game, but I would imagine that it would not be easy to use the same game engine to simulate fixed thrust and rudders as well as directable thrust?
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These comments about fast ferries and their handling are very interesting, mostly because there are not so many people acquainted with them, and because of their quality.
... When you play with both jets, you can make two kinds of movements depending the position of the jets. Generally the parallel movements are done with both jets opened (about 15-18 degrees) and the turning movements with the jets closed. If you need any information, just tell me.
Probably due to my poor understanding of English, and surely of the "waterjet controls vocabulary", I would like to know what you mean by "jets opened" (buckets up?), and how you achieve parallel movements (sideways?), with the help of bowthrusters?
Some elaboration about the controls would be very welcome. Do you still have lateral thrust when jets are closed?
Surely, more explanations would be welcome, could help the developers to improve the sim and help us to get more knowledge of the handling performances.
Regards,
Luc
PS: I also found http://www.hamiltonjet.co.nz/includes/files_cms/file/hm_series_brochure.pdf
but it is oflittle help
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These comments about fast ferries and their handling are very interesting, mostly because there are not so many people acquainted with them, and because of their quality.Probably due to my poor understanding of English, and surely of the "waterjet controls vocabulary", I would like to know what you mean by "jets opened" (buckets up?), and how you achieve parallel movements (sideways?), with the help of bowthrusters?
Some elaboration about the controls would be very welcome. Do you still have lateral thrust when jets are closed?
I will try to explain it as best I can without drawing a diagram.
First thing you have to understand is the waterjet nozzles both rotate. 30 degrees right and 30 degrees left.
No bow thruster, or thrusters.
Now picture the port nozzle facing this direction / ---- \ and this is your starboard nozzle. Jets opening outward.
In SS 2008 that would be port nozzle 30 degrees, starboard nozzle -30 degrees.
This is called walking a vessel sideways.
Drop the bucket (thrust redirect for reverse) on the port engine and back down with a little more power then your starboard.
This is for two reasons- The bucket redirect is not as efficient as the jet pushing forward and the thrust has much further to travel past obstructions under the hull.
Again, picturing those nozzles in the / ---- \ configuration. Port nozzle is pulling back, starboard nozzle is pushing forward...what happens?
The vessel moves this way <----------------------------
Reverse throttles to go the other direction. This is A LOT EASIER than a vessel walking with twin screws, with or without a thruster.
Nozzles in the closed or V position look like this \ ---- /
For slow speed maneuvering, a speed brake is applied to block the full thrust from the jet nozzles. By alternating which bucket you open and close you can turn the vessel quickly. Port thrust pushes the bow to starboard, starboard thrust pushes the bow to port. Since the waterjet vessel has no rudder(s), bare steerageway does not apply.
Hope this explains things a little better. ;D
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Can't you just chill?how would you like it if you worked so hard on a game and people call it s*****?Let v step chillax and then they'll start working again soon.
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shipfan, surely feedback on the parts of the game which are not as accurate as they could be is important to allow the developers to see which areas of the game can be improved. If eveyone just said how fantastic it is and how gret a job vstep have done then nothing would get changed.
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Can't you just chill?how would you like it if you worked so hard on a game and people call it s*****?
tut tut, are you not a bit young to be using language like that, i'll tell your mum and you will get grounded for a month :D ;)
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and by the way its spelt S***, not S***** ;)
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???
Of course if I wanted to change the physics of the game engine...
Just simply take the code from a twin engine vessel and multiply it by 2 while still retaining a twin engine control. Then the RJ4 would handle closer to real life.
Picture 2 Sherpas side by side lashed tightly together.
Using ONLY the outboard engines, I can walk the combined vessels sideways. (Yeah, I tried this) ;)
No matter what ship you choose in SS 2008, they follow the same physical movement. It's as if they are all powered by a single outboard motor. Forward and right rudder turns your vessel right. Astern and left rudder backs your vessel left. Might as well use both engines to do this because it really doesn't matter.
With two ships lashed together you actually get the correct spacing and ACCURATE twin engine maneuvering.
Sooooooo....someone needs to get to coding :-P
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Thanks captseaton, I think I see it now. I tried to test it, but didnt manage it because of a keyboard "problem". Dont know if it is a bug, but when I try to separate Rudder1 and Rudder2 (rotation of jets?), the keys are mixed between 1 and 2. Perhaps could an "innocent hand" check it? Perhaps it is due to an AZERTY keyboard, with the last line being WXCVBN,;:= but I doubt it, because it works well with other keys. I feel a bug hmmm.
But it can be easily solved, and I'll get over it (is R1 port? R2 stbd?), here odd is stbd and even is port.
Within one hour, it will be solved (but the empire strikes back is on the screen now...).
About the deceleration of RedJet4, I think the distance of 2.5 lengths is accurately reproduced? Of course, one doesnt feel the ship pitching (?), but the distance seems correct.
Regards,
Luc
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I have managed to get the sherpa moving almost sideways through the water.
port engine 50% ahead
starboard engine 40%astern
rudder hard to starboard
thrust to port
The ship creeps forward and moves sideways with a very low rate of turn, if you fiddle wirh the controls you can correct the forward aft motion and rate of turn and with a little manouvering room can make the ship travel sideways over quite a large distance. It is not particularly pretty or realistic and you have to move ahead and astern a little and swing port and starboard a little as it seems almost impossible to find a balance.
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Shipfan, VSTEP has no direct comeptition, so if they are not told what they need to improve they may not look to it as soon as if they were told. It's to help them too! :]
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Voilà , finally I succeeded in manoeuvring RedJet4 sideways with separated rudders.
It works, but having no reference, I cannot tell if it is realistic. Surely, the distance between the jets gives her a very good manoeuvrability. Happily enough, Engine 1 is the port jet, 2 the starboard one.
Unfortunately, in the Settings -Ship controls panel, Rudder 1 reset corresponds to Rudder 2 reset (and vice versa). Also, Rudder 1 seems to correspond to the starboard deflector, and 2 to the port one, which is thoroughly confusing. It reminds me of Red Eagle "stern" control panel.
Regrads,
Luc
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And what about your technical qualifications, Stuart2007? :-*
Please remind me where I have stated or even given the impression that I have captained a large passenger carrying vessel.
Stu
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Capt Seaton. Thanks for that technical explination. I personally find the technical side of this fascinating.
As for accuracy. I am taking flying lessons and can assure anyone with no flight experience that a certain flight sim is not 'as real as it gets'. So I can understand how a ship professional might view shipsim. Great fun, but not necessarily 100% accurate.
Stu
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Capt Seaton. Thanks for that technical explination. I personally find the technical side of this fascinating.
As for accuracy. I am taking flying lessons and can assure anyone with no flight experience that a certain flight sim is not 'as real as it gets'. So I can understand how a ship professional might view shipsim. Great fun, but not necessarily 100% accurate.
Stu
My pleasure, I aim to please :)
Well, it wasn't "too" technical, I have seen jet powered yachts go up and down the New River in Fort Lauderdale, it is so much easier to understand...once you have seen it done a few times. ;D
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Capt Seaton. Thanks for that technical explination. I personally find the technical side of this fascinating.
As for accuracy. I am taking flying lessons and can assure anyone with no flight experience that a certain flight sim is not 'as real as it gets'. So I can understand how a ship professional might view shipsim. Great fun, but not necessarily 100% accurate.
Stu
It takes years to learn how to handle large ships, even qualified ships officers do not normally dock the ship until they get to at least chief officer level. There has to be a balance between making a realistic simulator and an enjoyable game.
If the handling of the ships was too accurate most people would never be able to complete the missions and would soon get annoyed with the game and give up. There has to be an element of an arcade game about it for people to want to buy it. I don't know what happens in the professional version of the sim which Vstep market, but as i said above I don't think the game as it stands is accurate enough to be used as a professional ship handling simulator.
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I read on the P&O website (Carnival) that the Oriana and Aurora can be moored within 6 inches (15cm for metric people) of target. Impressive.
Stu
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If the handling of the ships was too accurate most people would never be able to complete the missions and would soon get annoyed with the game and give up. There has to be an element of an arcade game about it for people to want to buy it. I don't know what happens in the professional version of the sim which Vstep market, but as i said above I don't think the game as it stands is accurate enough to be used as a professional ship handling simulator.
I totally agree with you, Clanky. If the game were "too" realistic, I couldn't undock the Titanic from Southampton without tugboat assistance. Plus, the whole evolution would take almost an hour. I think people would just stop playing. :o
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I read on the P&O website (Carnival) that the Oriana and Aurora can be moored within 6 inches (15cm for metric people) of target. Impressive.
Stu
It is impressive...
When the Queen Mary 2 arrived in Fort Lauderdale after completing her maiden voyage, she was escorted by around 14 news helicopters, tugboats spraying water, and a billion dollar US Navy AEGIS destroyer. The 506 foot long USS Carney (DDG-64) then picked up two tugboats for docking assistance, while the 1132 foot long QM2 proceeded to dock using her three bow thrusters and azimuthing pods. Keep in mind this was the first time the QM2 had ever visited Port Everglades, and the pressure of all these people watching.
http://travel.webshots.com/album/547043271mfrjFk
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nice...
(http://inlinethumb33.webshots.com/19360/2064964000056063233S425x425Q85.jpg)
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Shipfan, VSTEP has no direct comeptition, so if they are not told what they need to improve they may not look to it as soon as if they were told. It's to help them too! :]
Actually there is another ship simulator program out there! Although you can't get it in shops, you can buy it on-line and download it yourself.
The way I see it - SS2008 is a game, which I am very grateful when you see how much there are train sim, car racing, flight sims, shoot-em-up's, sports (the list goes on and on....) games on the market for PC, PS2, X-Box, PS3 etc.
I'm sure in the future Ship Simulator will become more realistic. Give the guys at VSTEP the chance to learn how to walk before they can run! ;)
Kev
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I was actually in a private discussion with another moderator. I downloaded 'the other sim' and I have to admit I enjoyed it... for a short while anyway. Yes, it has a few features that SS lacks.
The problem was (and I confess, like most here, not really knowing how a large ship really feels to manouver) it just didn't feel convincing at all. And the graphics were... basic.
The killer point came when I ran two pcs side by side. SS on one, ** on the other... I challenge anyone to do the same and then call SS an arcade game. That said, I hope the developers never underestimate any competitors. It would be a bad thing to assume the other one will never progress beyond its current simplicity.
Stu
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If the handling of the ships was too accurate most people would never be able to complete the missions and would soon get annoyed with the game and give up. There has to be an element of an arcade game about it for people to want to buy it. I don't know what happens in the professional version of the sim which Vstep market, but as i said above I don't think the game as it stands is accurate enough to be used as a professional ship handling simulator.
I think this is quite correct, but the arcade needs to be miminal. Real effects can be far more engaging than most arcade stuff. When you get any ship - or even something as small as a pilot boat - and subject it to volitile wind and current based and things quickly get a bit hairy. And the saying is true that the bigger they are, the more slowly and the more surely things will go wrong if you make a mistake. Think in terms of miles ahead.... It is like a strategy game - a role playing game (when we go multi-player I will most likely aim to be a harbour patrol boat and/or a tug -- and missions could involve arresting speeders, assisting berthing, etc. Roles.
Thinking of real effects: I do believe that taking account of real wind speeds and current and/or tidal flows would require very little programming effort when plotting the direction of a ship. You work out the effect of the throttles and rudders as one vector and slip in the vector equation regarding the ships actual speed and direction after accounting for the various forces at work to change that direction and speed. Perhaps this should be posted to technical or improvements to the game for review by our design team?
More of us may score low at first because of our unfamilarity with tide, current, and wind on large ships, but it would make things exciting and still playable. Indeed people would "get it" fairly quickly - and for those who don't a tutoring dialogue could be built into the waypoint dialgoues (for example: explaining what a spring line is; or informing you of the distance needed to stop a tanker, etc)
I find the small boats in this game "feel right" and are most enjoyable - but stunt jumps interest me far less than rescuing folk or running a tight ferry schedule.
The final thing that would be nice in the game are the basic rules of the road; who yields to who is not that complicated - that is what computers are good for - and the real players will be the only one who make mistakes regarding those roles -so many mistakes and you lose rank, better performance yields higher rank more quickly. The multiple player version definitley will need some kind of admirality court to fire the asses of those who constantly endanger other ships.... let them stay in the game as a rowboat or something.... ;D
- Richard + (Osprey)
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Thinking of real effects: I do believe that taking account of real wind speeds and current and/or tidal flows would require very little programming effort
With great respect, do you programme conmputers professionally?
There has to be an element of an arcade game about it for people to want to buy it. I don't know what happens in the professional version of the sim which Vstep market, but as i said above I don't think the game as it stands is accurate enough to be used as a professional ship handling simulator.
At what point has Vstep said that they are aiming shipsim 08 as a professional training tool for manouvering? As far as I recall, they haven't.
Again, I repeat my point that you wouldn't use MSFS as a means to learn to fly, yet it provides fun and amusement (as well as SOME theoretical training, I suppose) to thousands of enthusiasts AND professionals.
Stu
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Sorry it has taken me so long to reply Stuart, I have been away doing it for real for a couple of weeks. (the game is much more fun! :D)
As I understand it VSTEP market a version of shipsim called shipsim pro, I have not used this version, but my understanding of it is that it is the ship sim game (2006 version at present i believe?) with inputs and outputs to and from real electronic navigation aids such as GPS, radar, electronic charts etc..
I did see something on the website about this version being aimed at colleges, which is were the comments came from, as I said, it would be a useful (and fun) way of teaching use of these navigation aids, but not to teach realistic ship handling.
I have used professional full mission ship simulators in the past and as fantastic as shipsim is it is not even in the same league as these in terms of realism (and as i said above it shouldn't be). I'm not griping, I think it is a fantastic game and I love playing it, but people need to realise that it is a game and not a professional simulator.
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Hey all, :)
most likely the majority of us have never sailed any of the ships on SS08 in real life. So we don't know how they are meant to handle. So we think its realistic and believeable controls but i see where your coming from. Perhaps this might not be a problem in Ship Sim Pro?
For the developers to get it right it would mean employing real life Sailors or going to sail all the ships they create which is expensive to do.
Thanks,
Andrew ;D
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wot do you no about fsat ferrys??
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For the developers to get it right it would mean employing real life Sailors or going to sail all the ships they create which is expensive to do.
Thanks,
Andrew ;D
From a few posts I have read on the forums i think the game designers did actually go and sail on some of the ships which have been modelled (obviously the Titanic may have been a little impractical :D) and i am sure that they must have had some input from professional seafarers, but the physics involved in real ship handling is incredibly complex and professional ship simulators require huge amounts of computing power to come close to anything realistic.
Remember that the game needs to:
a) be playable by people who do not have years of training
b) be enjoyable
c) be capable of running on a home PC or laptop.
If the physics were modelled too realistically then none of these would be possible.
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Remember that the game needs to:
a) be playable by people who do not have years of training
b) be enjoyable
c) be capable of running on a home PC or laptop.
If the physics were modelled too realistically then none of these would be possible.
Excellent points there clanky, I agree :)
I am of course, speaking from being in category 'a' ;)
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I’m also in category A but I still think that this game will need levels of challenge where you advance from one level to another and where you feel difference between the ship types and where you need to learn something instead of just sailing around and screaming “yiiihaaaâ€. :P
The game becomes quite boring if the whole game is far too easy and you can just maneuver big ships like they where some small cruisers. ::)
If this ranking system is going to have a meaning then the game should contain more challenging boats where you go from newbie to pro level, or where you have to advance to be able to sail the ship. I see that we got locked missions where you need to unlock them. Why not have locked ships where you need to do something first (advance to another level) before you can take command on the ship?
When you play these car racing games you have to for example win some races to unlock a new car. So can it be for Ship Simulator but not racing. Let’s say that you have to complete some special missions and then you unlock a new ship. :)
Another idea is all these moneys we get in this score system (if it’s still active?). Let’s say that you reach a level of virtual moneys where you can buy yourself a new ship from some virtual ship yard and then you unlock another ship which you can use in the game.
Summary: Complete a mission and you unlock a new ship (just an idea) ;)
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From the point of view of realism, maybe the way forward is to have game play options such as having the ships effected by wind and tide, which can be turned on and off, although even this will not be entirely realistic. Both wind and tide will effect different ships in different ways, some ships will tend to try and turn head to wind and some will tend to bear off, the same ship will even act diferently in different wind conditions.
Again all of these would have to be done within the limits of what can be run on a home PC.
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Remember that the game needs to:
a) be playable by people who do not have years of training
b) be enjoyable
c) be capable of running on a home PC or laptop.
If the physics were modelled too realistically then none of these would be possible.
Hi clanky :)
I don't agree with you. I think the physics should be modelled as realistically as possible. Otherwise the title 'simulator' would be misleading. Lots and lots of people in all ages handle boats in real life and if you can handle your bayliner or sailboat, you won't have any trouble handling the small boats in the sim.
The challenge is the large vessels (and every 'game' should have it's challenges...). In principle the handling is the same as for smaller boats just in a larger scale. The real difference is in how the environment affects the vessel and that is what makes it challenging. So if you are untrained - play (or make) missions without wind and current which is easy in SS08 as wind and current don't affect the ships. You could also play missions without berthing-objectives, as you said, if you're an unexperienced officer you won't handle these operations.
I think the game should aim at being 'as real as it gets' as it pretends to be a simulator. I don't think it's fair to simmers if the sim is deliberately made easier (and unrealistic) just to make it 'fun' to play. For me the 'fun' is challenge and realism.
By choosing ship type, mission type and weather you can actually set your own level of difficulty. A difficulty slider like the one in FSX might be a good idea, but it should at least be possible to set the sim at max realism.
Regards
groennegaard
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wot do you no about fsat ferrys??
Can anyone translate this to English, please?
Stu
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A simplified sim might give weekend sailors a false sense of their ability to control their craft. These are the folk whom our Coast Guardsmen have to risk their own lives to fish from the drink.
Marty
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I think anyone that doesn't treat the sea with respect is probably not likely to be affected either way by the complexity of this sim.
Perhaps it needs a warning at the beginning of a mission. Warning: This does not qualify you to Captain a super tanker.
Joking aside, you are probably right; people will think it looks easy, so it must be (it might well be there las thought, however, if there is no lifeboat nearby).
Stu
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Well, I'm off doing it for real for the next 3 months so I will talk to you all in January.
Here's wishing you all calm virtual seas and cold non-virtual beer until then.
Joining tomorrow in Marchwood, (SMC Marchwood on the chart on the left as you go up Southampton water in the Solent). Then off taking military equipment to Iraq (really wish i could get a job that I enjoyed as much as this one that didn't prick my conscience every time I go to sea :( )
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Safe sailing clanky, and take care :)
See you when you get back :)
Regards.
DJM.
Edit: Oh, Merry Christmas too ;D
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Thanks DJM.
Yeah, merry Christmas and happy new year to you all.
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What time are you sailing & which ship? I will pop down to Hythe Pier and wave you off......
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The original Railroad Tycoon was a great game, for its (DOS) day. (It went downhill when they dropped the animation of stick figures building bridges.)
But the requirement to earn money to expand the network was an anathema to we who exist on a higher plane, above such pecuniary pursuits. (In other words, it was a pain in the butt.)
Sensibly, it was made an option in later versions.
Likewise, turning SS into a rewards based game, as ’06 was, would be a complete turn-off to a large segment of users who are of the mindset expressed by my signature. (One of the most oft quoted passages in English literature, and the unofficial motto of Scripps Institution of Oceanography) :)
Perhaps VSTEP should make two versions—one strictly for gamers, which I do recognize as an important market. Alternatively there could be an option, perhaps at load time. (That should keep the bug chasers busy.)