Ship Simulator
English forum => Ship Simulator Extremes => Topic started by: PoRL on September 10, 2010, 13:25:26
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I think things will be a little "easier" in the conversations between Mods / VSTEP / beta testers / users if there was a little more transparency about the current status of SSE.
In my professional life, all software issued comes with release notes. This lists the known bugs on the system, and whether or not they're being worked on for the next patch / revision. (Some bugs are "minor", and the status is "live with it", some are "Major" with an urgent 'hotfix' being developed for it, some are even "New" (Recently come to light and not yet assessed). Hopefully, many of them will be "Will be rectified in next patch").
Surely somebody within VSTEP's QC department is already tracking the listed bugs, assigning priorities and resources, and updating the current status. How about therefore using this existing information on a pinned, read-only thread (regularly updated!) where those known bugs are listed along with their current status? This would at least give us the reassurance that corrective measures are in place for a specific item!
What do you say?
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It would serve no purpose other than to produce more flames.
We do acknowledge bugs and state that they are fixed in a patch after we have personally tested it.
To burden VSTEP further by asking them to divert resources from correcting bugs to listing them seems counterproductive.
It has been stated that all bugs will be corrected in patches.
Beta testers / Moderators have all signed non-disclosure agreements that limit what you might call transparency. The behavior and attitude of many posters raise a legitimate concern that too much “transparency†will only give rise to more such behavior.
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I disagree (maybe obviously! :) )
There wouldn't be any diversion of resources at all, as VSTEP should already know a) what bugs they're aware of, b) what the status is and c) what the expected resolution steps are. If they don't know these things, they've a really screwed up QC department!! ;D
(This bug list should be official, and from VSTEP, not the moderators or beta testers. The NDA wouldn't be affected)
Not all bugs will be fixed in the next patch - some will come to light too near the cutoff date for the final build (you obviously need some time to test the patch, right?), some will be too trivial, some will take more time to fix. Bottom line is that there'll be a whole bunch of bugs NOT fixed in the next patch, so cue a whole batch of messages about "XXXX isn't fixed!!!!!".
Remember, we're already generating our own bug lists on these forums! Which looks more professional - VSTEP doing it officially, or a ever-growing mountain of "Have you seen this crap??" posts?
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I've only had good experiences with such transparency as for example official bug lists, lots of software developers - both big and small - are doing them successfully. I also agree with PoRL that it should not take any extra effort publishing them as they should already exist internally. While I have not been affected by too many bugs or other problems, I've noticed that many whom are running into severe/gamebreaking issues are having problems even getting a reply directly from VSTEP at times (not counting unaffiliated voulneteers with limited information, NDA or otherwise).
Could perhaps the negative behaviour of the many unhappy posters actually be caused by the 'information blackout' created by VSTEP? I know I would find it a lot more comforting, had I been experiencing an issue, to take a look at an official list stating "hey, we know theres a problem there, we're working on it, and hopefully it will be fixed in patch X which he hope will be made public by date Y", than the current practice of finding my issue made into a long post with several others facing the same problem and no word from the programers.
Small replies like the one from a VSTEP employee regarding the potential future addition of functioning bridge instruments being discussed in an upcoming meeting but also being kept on ice until more important issues are sorted, adds a whole lot of goodwill, in my book at least. It might be easier to follow the practice of "fix first, explain later", yet it just doesent sit right with me as a customer.
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One wonders, Marty, whether goderators constantly whining about how mere members are complaining about issues is actually helping.
I'm afraid that it isn't really good enough to release software that blatantly isn't finished. Perhaps vstep should only charge 50% and charge the other 50% when finished?
I haven't bought SSE, so I can be considered impartial. I am still waiting for some of the bugs to be fixed in 08!
Perhaps you forget, Mr Smith, that people DO have the choice whether or not to buy... Vstep should not be taking customers for granted. That is not to say that I actually agree with some of their methods of complaining, but to write off anyone who is complaining as a flamer is a little poor.
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I agree, an official bug list where tested and confirmed bugs are listed would be great as it would stop the many many repeated posts and arguments, repeated posts could be closed after being pointed to the official list.
This list could also have items that the forum says would improve SSE as well.
It would be nice if Vstep then updated the list with **Fixed in next patch ** so users can check when the patch comes out, as often in software a ** fixed ** problem is not fixed as the bug was not understood.
The problem that I see (which i have repeated in another post) is that the testers / moderators are taking the brunt of the comments as personal as if we are moaning at them.
Purchasing the software gives us the right to complain if its faulty and to expect a civil answer not these "If you dont shut up we will take our ball away" attitude. If you dont want to do a moderators job and give answers you should not be a moderator. If you cant find faults in the software you should not be a beta tester.
Moderators getting annoyed with users is a very bad and unprofessional, they MUST be on the users side and put users feelings to the developers and get an answer. I feel sorry for mvsmith and the others as they are most likely getting no answers from Vstep but having a go at users is not the answer.
Making SSE into a sort of members club where only those who are mates can have an answer is not on as the software is available to the public.
Everyone needs to calm down and Vstep need to get the first patch out to show they are doing something.
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http://80.95.161.114/shipsim/forum/index.php/topic,21032.0.html
is another asking the same
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Some people seem to think that there's no system in place that handles bugs.. Or that things they notice to be wrong go undetected. Sorry to burst your bubbles, but the community is not the first and foremost 'finder of bugs', that some of you think it is. :-\
On the contrary, almost EVERYTHING that pops up on the forum, has usaully already been reported before people post about it. And the rest is reported as well. The fact that they were not working properly before release, is something else, which I am not getting into.
But the people's wishes/suggestions/complaints/grievances are all relayed to vstep too. And Vstep visits the forum on a daily basis too and they read it all aswell.
And once things get fixed and patched, you can read about the changes that patch makes, in changelogs.
But, the infomationstream and changes in status is a very big and rapidly changing bundle of data, which makes it just not feasible to upkeep another list, translated into a usable 'public format' and keep it up to date. But rest assured, all the things that come up, are known and noted.
The idea of having a sort of 'look here first before you post a bug report' topic, is not a bad one, it has it's merits, I grant you that, although it might be less effective than most people actually think. This will only be a sort of 'these things are known and reported' thing though, f we'd set up a 'bug aknowledgement topic I reckon. Keeping up with the changes on the bugtracker is not really feasible. And you'll just have to going to take my word for it, you cannot judge it unless you have seen how it works, behind the scenes.
And I also think these kinda topics won't solve the 'clutter' of the forum anyway. Just like all the other guidelines, people just don't seem to ever read them. And just jump in and post instead. And then there's the people that I qualify as true 'moaners', who do not offer any type of constructive remark at all and just are here to kick up some fuss and take such topics off topic and insert a diverting element in an otherwise helpful topic.
There's a few topics made where we've asked for member feedback, and some people can't even keep to a simple suggested format to make their opinions known, but go off on tantrums, sometimes so bad that we have to edit and remove posts, since obviously.. when customer get angry, the forum rules can go out the door, so it would seem?! And profanity and rudeness to volunteers that are in the middle trying their best, is then suddenly the new norm.. And they wonder why sometimes a member can annoy us.. or why we are reluctant to invite more of that behaviour.. ;D
So anyway, A centered 'these bugs/problems have been reported, read this first' topic is perhaps a good idea though, we can take it into consideration, but it might still be too diverse to have it all visible at a single glance. Cause as you can imagine, there are many different 'sub categories' for bugs.. and that's not even counting all the complaints about featues that DO work, but are not to people's liking. And that's a whoile different story. Features that work are not really up for this discussion of a 'broken game'. Even so, Vtstep listens to that aswell, and has already changed a few things because of the wishes of the end users.
We'll have a look and talk about it, see if it is feasible to create such a list, or if it changes so fast that it will be to messy for the average casual forum user.
But again, know that the ones among you that post clearly and constructively about the problems with the game, and about your wishes for a better game, are listened to!! It's only the unreasonable and non constructive rantings of some 'odd ones out' that sometimes go down the wrong way.
And the reason that you sometimes not get a clear answer, is because we cannot say 'yes, reported and will be fixed' unless we are SURE it can be and will be fixed. Which is much later ,after the fix. and testing. At that point, the info will soon be available in a changelog anyway. So it's really just sometimes a matter of, we can't say yet, cause it might come back to bite us on the behind. :-\
Kind Regards,
Fred.
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There are many bug tracking systems out there.
You don't have to put the source but a system for interaction from customers and Vstep would be best then have a sticky and make users of the bug system have to log in to make comments. Viewing bugs to see if it is the same as they are having should be left open.
I'm one of the people that have had minor bugs and a great experience so far. Just trying to help a bit.
Sourceforge is one of the best known . bugzilla from mozilla is another.
http://www.bugzilla.org/
http://www.dmoz.org/Computers/Software/Configuration_Management/Bug_Tracking/
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such a list should really help... inb4 the forum gets even more flooded with hey i found a bug, or hey is this being worked on... the forum really is started to become a big raging mess
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Fred, the fact is that the 'game' isn't finished. I'm sorry, but if someone goes and buys a new car and it won't go above 40mph, you wouldn't expect the maker to say "the engine will be fixed in the next month or so", would you?
I'm sorry but vstep, whom I DO have much respect for, have shot themselves in the nuts this time... The "we deliberately made it low quality to avoid upsetting nautis customers" is icing on cake time! Is the professional version so watered down that sales could be affected by this game???
I actually think vstep has produced some very good stuff and are genuinely trying to resolve issues that have come about due to publisher deadlines (never agree to anything you can't keep to!) However, vstep should be experienced enough to better prepare for deadlines and set them accordingly.
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Maybe I'm totally wrong, but I think "forum" is latin and means a large open space where some people may gather or something like that.
In this "forum" we wonder around shouting and asking in different threads, thousands of other people walking by, but we will never know if the person close us at the time when yelled out loud was someone who could do something about our case, or even someone who could pass the question forward.
We are shouting to the darkness, but wishing our voice will be heard. :)
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We are shouting to the darkness, but wishing our voice will be heard. :)
Your voices ARE heard, we keep on repeating that in each topic where something is addressed to that matter. But somehow we're not taking seriously, it seems, and are doubted. Well I can't help that. :-\
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Fred, the fact is that the 'game' isn't finished. I'm sorry, but if someone goes and buys a new car and it won't go above 40mph, you wouldn't expect the maker to say "the engine will be fixed in the next month or so", would you?
Actually I remember mercedes calling back their A-class cause they were prone to tip over and cause potentially lethal accidents, when one swerved too wildly, as 'the moose test' pointed out. I wonder what the customers of that product posted on mercedes' forum when they discovered this 'bug'? At least SSE isn't going to kill anyone.. :-\
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Funnily enough I drove merc a-class for some 2-3 years, but that was years and years ago :)
But after the moose test though.
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Thanks for the posts Mad_Fred, i think the biggest disappointment for me is the lack of an appology for those who have made a purchase and a total lack of news when the patch is coming out. It was a week, then just over a week, last I heard it was weeks or even months.
Look at it from our side (The ones who purchased SSE).
We get a game thats not at all as we expect, its has things missing and has many many bugs.
Vstep find time to put up news of a campaign video to get more sales but not tell us whats going on.
Ship Simulator Extremes: New Tourist Campaign gameplay video released!
Date posted: 30-08-2010
VSTEP/Paradox today released a new video highlighting the Tourist Tales campaign of Ship Simulator Extremes.
This new gameplay video focuses entirely on the Tourist Tales campaign, which is one of the 3 campaigns in the game. Other campaigns are the "Core campaign" and the "Greenpeace campaign".
The Tourist Tales campaign video is an extensive trailer running at 3:53 seconds, and giving a good impression of some of the missions in the campaign as you captain a luxury cruise ship on a very eventful trip around the world.
In hindsight several people including myself would not have purchased SSE as it is and I find it frustrating to get different messages from staff and moderators in this forum. In fact I feel that some moderators are starting to get peeed off with forum members.
Lets face facts, it should be Vstep who tells us whats going on not forum moderators. As to the staff member who said "we deliberately made it low quality to avoid upsetting nautis customers", well that says it all,
When i purchased SSE i had never heard of Nautis and just wanted a simulator
To moderators, if i have said anything to offend then I say sorry, but to Vstep, I truly hope Nautis uses different quality testing systems.
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Your voices ARE heard, we keep on repeating that in each topic where something is addressed to that matter. But somehow we're not taking seriously, it seems, and are doubted. Well I can't help that. :-\
This is the actual point :)
We really can't be sure what is going on, simple updated Bug B Gone list would be nice, like plain html listing in short description what is noted up and also when something is really fixed up to next patch, like
"Tourist campaign mission 1 : Orient Star sinking when closing by", Or
"Tourist campaign mission 2: Second AI controlled Sherpa sinking at mission start". Patched in next release.
etc.
Both occasional real bugs btw :)
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Thanks for the posts Mad_Fred,......
.....different quality testing systems.
You're welcome. :thumbs:
Well I do wish to repeat, that sometimes you simple CAN'T say anything to the public yet, because sometimes when you develop something totally new, you're in uncharted territory and the outcome isn't always clear or predictable.
And during the development or the fixing of bugs, you can't always be sure it's all in order till the very last. Disclosing any info in the mean time can seriously further dissappoint customers, who then also come to rely on such feedback and expect it to all be sorted by a certain date.
It's just not always as straight forward as it seems. And then it's best not to say anything till you're sure of it. But this does mean that people wonder.. and speculate.. and well... want answers. And I fully understand that.
But in fact, the forum staff is here to act as a medium between Vstep and the forum users, so it IS meant to be partially this way. Even though obviously Vstep posts a fair ammount of info too, moderators post the rest and make Vstep aware of the thoughts and wishes of the public, and tries to inform the public of what little they sometimes can divulge.. This is cause we're in direct contact and also assist with testing. Which btw is a fine process, quality wise, and there's little that escapes the attention of the testers, but good testing doesn't magically also fix those things that were found, if those are unforseen problems without an easy fix, due to the game being a 100% built-from-the-ground-up new product. If you know what I mean.
And the advertising campaign for the game has nothing to do with the developement side or the testing side. So yeah, they take time to post another video, but if there isn't some 100% certain sure info about a patch that is watertight, then they won't tell you what's going on with that yet, simply because, it's too early to tell specific things about it. Or else things might not go as planned and we'll have another 'but they said so and so, and now it's not there!' topic on our hands ..So it is sometimes a matter of 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' ;)
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This is the actual point :)
We really can't be sure what is going on, simple updated Bug B Gone list would be nice, like plain html listing in short description what is noted up and also when something is really fixed up to next patch, like
"Tourist campaign mission 1 : Orient Star sinking when closing by", Or
"Tourist campaign mission 2: Second AI controlled Sherpa sinking at mission start". Patched in next release.
etc.
Both occasional real bugs btw :)
Again, that confirmation comes in the changelog with such a patch.
You can't always tell till it's very late in the day.. so what if it's posted to be fixed.. and then another tester duplicates the bug anyway, so they didn't manage to fix it.. (stupid example, but still)
Then people will have a problem with that again.
As I said.. listing them to get new members to stop posting new topics a bout the same known fact is perhaps a good idea.
But keeping the public informed about the status of the ongoing beta testing is not really an obligation, and more hassle than the time spent on that is worth. That time should be spent actually fixing and texting the bugs! ;)
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Greetings,
Well, some of you must allready know that we realy taking care on what you post on this forum.If there are problems with something,you can be helped by the technical board,or when its to complicated we send it to V-Step.
Like i said before,the 2008 version had also troubles in the beginning.To Stuart2007,you want to waith for extra updates for the 2008 version,i think V-step is now focussing on the Extreme version,there are peoblems enough to solve.
I also dont know if they gonna keep the 2008 version more up to date.The new standard for the game has become the Extreme version and his graphics.The 2008 version was just most of the wishlist,which came out of the 2006 version.
To bad that the Extreme version has many problems,it started direct with the release.Things went wrong logistics.This was not realy V-Steps fault.The game itself,well, there has to be alot of work needed to be done.I agree!
About release dates for patches,i'm not realy a pro for release dates at all.This will all the time end up with members,which will complain about anything.Specialy when a releasedate has to be deleyed again for some reason.
Regards
Marc
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First let me say that I appreciate the moderators frequent posts regarding technical issues and their assistance with any issues. However, I feel the fact that there is so much disbelief in what you all post is due to the fact that your only affiliation with VSTEP is that you are volunteer moderators.
While your duties as moderators cause you to interact with VSTEP more than the common forum member and I'm sure you are repeating what is told to you by VSTEP, you are not VSTEP. People want the company that made the game to acknowledge the bugs, tell them whats happening with it, and what direction they are taking it. Only then will the common forum member take it as the truth. While what you say may be the truth, until it comes directly from VSTEP many may consider it hearsay or speculation.
On most other official game forums I frequent the moderators are made out to be representatives of the company and it is assumed they are in their employ. If they are not they do a good job of hiding it. This forum is different in that it is well known that you are all volunteers.
So in my opinion, until VSTEP starts acknowledging these things or starts moderating their forum you will always have the issue of disbelief.
All the bugs, problems, and lack of content aside, I've been having a blast with SSE.
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Gotta take the good with the bad, just the nature of the beast.
SSE is a train wreck online and awesome offline.
Hope the bug fixes are actual.
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@ osterob,
Yes, you're maybe right that some forums of other company's are runned by their own people.This can be truth for company's like microsoft and more of that kind.
Why,when we put something on the forum is it sometimes called speculation?Well,members realy start the speculation,not us.If we put something on the forum,it comes from V-step.We cannot make something up ourselfs.Somethings we can put on the forum,others things not,or by later time.
As far as i know as a mod,V-step is honnest and open to us,and i'm a mod for 4 years.
What members do is,we start something(topic about a item)for example,and later on you should read what the members make out of it.Than we have to correct that message again.
We as mods have many times direct contact with V-steps employes,when their is something going on.
Believe me when one of us put something here,there is a background support for it,others ways we can't do that.
Regards
Marc
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I really appreciate the work of the moderators and try to say so when I write notes to one of them.
It seems to me that the fundamental thing the COMPANY needs to do is to post a "known bugs" list with a promise that they are being looked at. Change the list as bugs come and go. Do no more than that.
The second thing the Company already does. When it releases an update it says what is in it.
The moderators can tag the known bugs list on the top of the SSE Forum "General Discussions" page just as other things are so tagged and prioritized.
Simple, easy, cheap. And worth hundreds of thousands of dollars in future sales. Customer relations are all.
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Hoy Richard,
Well, there is a buglisting direct to Vstep.
They made one in the 2008 version to.So this way they get updated.Then they look at it on dayly basses,to solve the problems.When they have several bugs and errors fixed,they make a patch,so more than one thing get in order.
Member do post their problems here to,so that s also an extra list for them.Here on this forum is every day someone from Vstep looking around to.
Marc
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As i have said before I also race iRacing, this is a racing sim that is very professional in the way it does things. I also Race Live for Speed (LFS) and run one of the largest teams (conedodgers.com).
Compare the 2 sims,
iRacing release patches every 3 months, they also release small fix patches all the time, as soon as you login it tells you "New update to download" with a link. Most of my team now race iRacing.
The iRacing forum has very few moans about updates or patches as their members are well aware when they are coming. I would say that posts chasing patches is about 1%
LFS releases patches when its ready, and in fact have lost 1000's of users because they have not kept to their dates. They will never give a date, just saying "its ready when its ready" and most of my team have lost faith.
The LFS forum is full of moans and arguments about when the patch will come. I would say that posts chasing "The patch" is about 60% or even higher.
So its simple, Patch the game on a regular date and release whats fixed and new content, that way the moans will drop dramatically and customers feel satisfied. The reason, well there is no point in asking when its coming out.
Little and often will fix the current SSE situation and give users some faith back.
Saying you cant say when is just an excuse, there is no doubt that some of the bugs have been fixed so patch them as soon as they are fixed in a mini patch, In these early days once a month would be acceptable to all i think, then make it every 3 months, that way all this bad feeling will go away.
As to volunteer moderators, all we can say it thanks for trying, but being the excuse for Vstep is not your job and I agree with others that a Vstep staff member should post whats going on, after all they took our money so we have a right to ask
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More or less of off-topic:
LFS has one independent developer (literally means one person) to keep it up to date and it's unclear do we ever see Scirocco, ROC or S3.
iRacing is made by company of dozens of emploees, some of those have even been in the business since the first true computer sims were made, so comparing those two isn't so fair. :)
Also to play iRacing you have to pay some $14 monthly even if you do not race at all, while with LFS you get all the future patches free (until the next major version change).
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The concept of a simple patch, as in the Dear Dead Dos, does not apply to complex programs today.
SS is “Patched†by replacing entire modules rather than just the odd byte. Because of the potential for unforeseen problems, such updates must be extensively tested prior to release.
It is therefore not feasible to go through that lengthy process for each individual fix. Updates are released when a number of fixes have been tested.
It is not possible to know when an update can be released until it is ready to be released.
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LFS has one independent developer (literally means one person)
I haven't been there in ages, what happened to the other 2 guys?
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I haven't been there in ages, what happened to the other 2 guys?
with one developer I mean one programmer (Scawen), the other two guys are still in. :)
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More or less of off-topic:
LFS has one independent developer (literally means one person) to keep it up to date and it's unclear do we ever see Scirocco, ROC or S3.
iRacing is made by company of dozens of emploees, some of those have even been in the business since the first true computer sims were made, so comparing those two isn't so fair. :)
iRacing is therefore like vStep, and LFS still has 3 developers
iRacing is patched by replacing modules and LFS by a replacement .exe
Both are at least as complex as SSE in my opinion, and if what you say is true (mvsmith) then the moans will keep on coming. :(
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Moans are expected from some, tiresome, repetitive, and largely uninformed as they are. They are less likely to be noticed the more they are repeated.
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with one developer I mean one programmer (Scawen), the other two guys are still in. :)
Well they are all devs though. ;)
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Marc
I am not saying moderators or folk like you need to post a list of bugs and move it to the top of the General Discussion list.
I am saying that the Bug List itself, non-interactive, no comments allowed, can be easily posted once a week by a staffer. A simple NOTE or LIST cut and paste into a priority note into the SSE General Forum.
Again - worth a million bucks - and involves virtually no time. A status report. Not a promise to fix or an agenda to fix. Just what is broke and how that changes week by week.
I have moderated Forums of considerable size and know that lots of time can be wasted talking about what should be done rather than simply doing it. I think this should be simply done.
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Well, thats something that Vstep has to decide,not us.
Making that list will also create extra complaints,believe me.The reason some will find that one problem should be taken care of first,instead of another problem.
So,what i mean is that a problem that mister A had announced,can be found more urgent than the problem mister B had found in the game,or visa versa.Believe me this is what will happen here,i'm around for some 4 years.
Like i said,its not on us,however we report the bugs to main office,and Vstep is reading this forum to.It is allready seen by them.
Regards
Marc
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Hi Osprey,
I think it would serve no useful purpose beyond providing more ammunition for the ranters.
There is a perception that the users are discovering “bugs†that escaped notice by testers, while there are complaints that SSE was released with known bugs. They want to have it both ways: The testers were incompetent or non-existent / VSTEP knowingly released a bug-ridden product. It’s more fun if you can tar everybody.
It has been repeatedly stated that there are known bugs, and that they will be corrected. It has been stated that VSTEP had no viable option in releasing on the date promised to the publisher. All of this falls on deaf ears, and the same rants are repeated over and over.
The existing “bug list†is the bug tracker. It is hardly in a form that can, without much effort, be published.
One could, I suppose, give everyone access to the bug tracker, either in a read-only mode, or with write privilege, which would be a lot more fun. Seriously, the bug tracker contains more than simple bug descriptions, and can be misinterpreted. Collecting NDAs from everyone on the forum might take a while.
Knowing what bugs exist is of little use, because they make themselves known. If there were a list, there would be constant demands to say when this, or that, bug would be fixed.
Regards,
Marty
Another option would be to simply create a “Bug List†board and let the users describe the bugs as they find them. That should be an instructive exercise for them. It would also be their very own list. It would not be some bogus, incomplete list by a nefarious VSTEP or their corrupt Moderator toadies.
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Gees, Fred... I'm not interested in a Merc A class (all I know is their OM904 engines are giving me far more headaches than stella and paracetamol taken together with vodka)....
I do want to register a complaint though about SSE, which I have not yet bought or tried at all.... But I figure if I complain now in advance of whatever I might or might not find later on then my complaint might or might not have been ignored long before I might or might not have considered buying sse.
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You may or may not have a good point there, Stu! :)
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Just want to add two cents here and I know this isn't something that hasn't been expressed already, but as a strong and enthusiastic supporter of the Ship Sim Franchise from Day 1 (yes i've bought every release and addon to date), I am very upset with the quality of what has been released in this latest version of the program.
Can VSTEP honestly pass the red face test and say that Extremes is a product that they have thoroughly tested and felt was a product ready for release? There are so many issues and problems at this point, i won't even get into the multiplayer situation, odd damage model, funky physics modeling, again the lack of environmental influence on the vessels or the missing editor (which is coming). I can't believe VSTEP could proudly stand behind the product in this form. Seriously?
I really really expect more at this point, not the least bit because VSTEP produce Professional grade simulator software and this is the third release of this program, the graphics are beautiful ok, now please lets get the rest of it working and take your time about it.
I hate writing these kind of posts, most of all because as a professional mariner I really really want this to be good program and i really really want to be supportive of VSTEP in achieving this....but at this point i feel taken advantage of! :-\
Cheers,
cloud
ps - Marcstrat, Stuart; good to see you guys are still around!
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Hi Cloud,
Just to clear up one point: SSE was thoroughly tested.
It was released with known bugs because VSTEP had no choice. They had promised the publisher an unrealistic release date.
SSE was a big departure from the architecture of previous versions. There was little to guide VSTEP in estimating the difficulties and the time required. VSTEP has always intended to release fixes as soon as possible.
In the meantime, users have the game to get familiar with its new GUI and paradigms, and to find out whether it will run on their computers. I think it is to their advantage to be able to do those things now rather than three or four months hence.
Regards,
Marty
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Hi Marty,
Thanks for your reply. I fully respect your view and the points you are making. To be sure VSTEP are not alone in an industry that all too often releases incomplete or buggy programs due to commercial pressure.
I don't want to get into a painful debate here, I think many of us are in the same place and just care to see a great product; just to say that yielding to commercial pressure at your customer's expense is not a sustainable business model in the long term.
At this point I suspect many committed ship sim enthusiasts have cast their commercial vote favorably by making a purchase, and now have to trust that VSTEPs will sustain its commitment to eventually deliver the product it intended to deliver in the face of a gradually declining revenue stream.
Given an alternative shipsimulator product; I'm not sure at this point that i'd take another gamble with VSTEP in a future release....but for now, I will quietly wait and hope that VSTEP will remain committed to their product over the next 3-4 months.
Anyway...don't get me wrong, I understand what you are saying, I'm hoping for the best, but just disappointed because I've seen this movie before. Believe me, what i want to be posting here is how awesome the product is and talk about the finer points of how well this home simulator models shiphandling and the marine environment....someday soon hopefully. :)
Cheers,
Cloud
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In the meantime, users have the game to get familiar with its new GUI and paradigms, and to find out whether it will run on their computers. I think it is to their advantage to be able to do those things now rather than three or four months hence.
But Marty this can be done with a demo, if Vstep had put out a Demo i would not have purchased the game.
We have spoken about this by PM and from what you have explained to me, and I 100% believe you, the bugs were found by the beta testers and sent to Vstep and Vstep simply had no time to fix it due to the release date.
In that case Vstep are 100% to blame and as i have said they should officially say sorry and tell us when the patch will be release, if the patch is going to be weeks or even months away then they should offer a full refund.
Also i think your post could be taken as you saying that the patch is three or four months away when others moderators have said a week and a few weeks.
I would maintain that until a patch date is officially released, its best to say, and users to assume, that there is no patch coming as then there can be no arguments.
I think Cloud's post says it all and just how let down even the most loyal feel, he even says he may not "Gamble" with Vstep. Well for some like me its the first time we have tried a Vstep sim and SSE is hugely defective and even though the forum support is great, official support is non-exsistant
Once again i say thanks for trying.
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@Binder,
Vstep is not to blame,because of the release date.This date is set by the publishers,the sooner the game can be released,the sooner they get money.This is what we try to get in your head.
Once a date has been set,it is hard to delay it again,because it was once delayed before.
I find it very cheap to point a 1 party alone.
Marc
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Hi All
Personally all this were to blame there to blame is getting a bit boring to read its all same
stuff different gravy
Yes the game needs sorting we know that from the amount of posts saying the same thing
People are not happy we now that from Guess the same amount of posts saying the same thing
Answer Blame The moderator's Blame the beta testers Blame V-Step in Fact why don't we blame
god for not giving them the powers to forsee all this in the first place.
V-Step is a company that make a game for profit there is no profit in unhappy customers they
have come on this forum and said that they will do there best to get it right .
But still I am reading page's of the same IF THE LORD GOD HIMSELF promised to fix it now someone
would come on the forum to ask why he did not do it yesterday.
Eric
Happy now rant over ;D
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I dont think blaming God is in good taste or warranted :thumbdown:, so lets hope that was just a joke ;).
Sadsid, Marcstrat, Marty and all the Moderators:
Firstly i am not pointing at one person, and nor are the many others complaining. The Moderators seem to do a good job keeping calm (Well almost) when they no doubt want to explode. The Moderators on the one hand sign to say they will not tell the forum or others whats going on, about testing etc. Yet they are our only contact with the developers.
Its rather silly to blame the publishers, no doubt they chased Vstep for a compleation date to release and no doubt Vstep gave them one. No doubt its all down to making money.
If they could not do it in time they should have said so, not just released it as they did.
a) The Moderators are not to blame, they are just trying to wade through the pile of crap they have been dropped in, some are taking it personal when the comments are to a forum, others are having a rant just as many moderators do.
b) The Beta testers are not to blame as they told Vstep what bugs there are in advance to release, and i understand that there have been very few (if any) new bugs found. I understand that beta testers informed Vstep the product was not ready
c) The publishers are just a sales agent who went on what they were told
marcstrat: You are not trying to say that they plucked a release date out of thin air and told Vstep when it had to be ready - come on they must have asked
So its Vstep that is to blame and no one else,
however users such as me cannot get any answer from Vstep either direct using the form on the website, in this forum or via the email address on the website. The only way you can get them to answer is to place an order and thats an automatic email.
Basically to Vstep we dont exist, they have taken our money and gone to ground.
I purchased SSE from Vstep so no publiser was involved and they did not say and have never admitted that the game has any faults or will be fixed, Moderaters in the forum have, saying it will be a week, a few weeks, and 3 to 4 months but you have gone to great lengths to say that you are not Vstep.
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Hi
It was ment as a joke I apologize if offends that was not my intention
Eric
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Hi
I thought it was, so no offence taken, well not be me anyway.
Thanks for posting
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Birder,
As in many other instances, you have failed to understand what you have read. My reference to 3 or 4 months had nothing to do with a patch release. It was in reference to a more realistic release date that VSTEP could or should have given to the publisher in the first place.
You seem bent upon either ignoring or distorting everything that has been explained in order to continue your tirade. Since you say the same thing over and over, it is hard not to believe that your main interest is in stirring up trouble rather than a sincere desire for a resolution to the problems.
You sound more and more like a troll with each post.
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Well, the repairs can be taken a few weeks, maybe months.We dont have a look at that.The only thing we know is that Vstep will inform us a little before.
We also dont know what error(r)and bugs will taken care of first,unless a few day's before of that patch.
I also hope they DONT put any releasedate infront anymore to.Not even for the patches!!!!
Just sitback, waith and see.
One thing i know is that before the patch going in,there will be testing again by the beta-testers.So that also takes a while.
Marc
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Hey, this is going in a bad direction. There's about to become a frontline between moderators and users in these forums, not good at all. In my opinion moderators should get less involved in these discussions as long as there are no personal attacks.
There's nothing wrong with Birder's posts, he hasn't broken any rules, he simply expresses his opinion, and I support his opinion 100%. When a moderator indicates that they are posts of a troll it upsets me.
The fact is that many of us feel ripped off and want our money back, simple as that. Will Vstep offer a refund? I doubt it, but at least they should show up in these forums and tell customers what's going on. That's actually something we expect when they've sold an unfinished or broken product. That is normal in any business. Using a volunteer moderator to tell us that repairs will come in a few weeks is far from good enough.
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We've already - repeatedly - been told that they know the program has problems, and they've told us why it was released like that. VSTEP made an error when deciding on a publishing date, a very long time ago, based on too little or wrong information regarding the work required to complete the software. It is not unprofessional, compared to even some of the largest softwarehouses, it is sadly very common today. Publishers have an extreme ammount of power, often they fund large parts of the - or even the entire - developement process; very few have the luxury of developing software with their own money.
I think it was Vanguard that tried that, with backing from a multimillionaire, stating that the game would not be released until it as ready. In the end they ran out of money before the game was completed, and they decided to sign up with SOE and publish instead of going out of business. That game was, at best, 25% complete. Even the largest of the capital cities were completely empty, often without any graphical work having been done at all.
It could very well be that VSTEP had to publish or perish. Would you rather see them gone now, with no SSE ever appearing in the future?
Having read Binders replies as well as moderators posts, I also find it hard to believe that he is not at least partially trolling for responses considering the way he apparently ignores or twists what is being said.
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Birder,
As in many other instances, you have failed to understand what you have read. My reference to 3 or 4 months had nothing to do with a patch release.
Please read my post again before attacking me, it says:
Also i think your post could be taken as you saying that the patch is three or four months away when others moderators have said a week and a few weeks.
I am agreeing with what you said but am trying to say that it could be taken that way, ffs i am on your side so why are you having a go at me.
I would thank Subwolf as at lease he understands what I want to achive.
OK Here goes
I apologise to all Moderators, Admins and Users on this forum for anything i have said,
I am certainly not a troll and that comment was not warrented, is out of order and offensive.
I want to make it clear what I want from all this
1) Vstep to hold their hands up to the problems. I repeat Vstep, not a moderator or someone that is nothing to do with the company.
2) Give out a date of the patch, if they cant, then offer all who want one a full refund.
I hope thats clear. consise, not vailed in threats or name calling.
Once again i make it clear that I apologise to all Moderators, Admins and Users on this forum for anything i have said on this forum.
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Having read Binders replies as well as moderators posts, I also find it hard to believe that he is not at least partially trolling for responses considering the way he apparently ignores or twists what is being said.
Hi, Its Birder not Binder, :)
I pressed the button the same time as you, but i hope my latest post is clear in what i am trying to achive.
To be fair if Vstep would answer emails or online forms i would not post here at all BUT THEY JUST DONT
Regards
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Subwolf,
It is arrogant of you to say what VSTEP should do. You are not the one who decides what Moderators do. It is the role of Moderators to explain what is being done, and why. We perform the customer support function for VSTEP, and are the normal conduit for most information from them.
The forlorn hope of you and Birder to form up a protest parade is fast fading with each post from you.
Most users would rather have a resolution of their problems than an apology. They also realize that the counterproductive rants by you and Birder could impact sales to the point where VSTEP would find it necessary to abandon the game development.
While they are understandably disappointed and frustrated by the current state of the game, most realize that their best chance of a satisfactory resolution does not lie with your agenda.
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First of all, a note to the moderators of this forum: Nobody at all (that I have seen) has blamed you guys for the acknowledged problems with the product. Some of your responses however have been extraordinarily unprofessional, even taking into account your unpaid volunteer status. No matter what your perception of posters, you are doing a great deal to not only make VSTEP look bad, but anger their paying customers. Remember - "Don't Post Angry!".
Now...
"Most users would rather have a resolution of their problems than an apology". Why not both? Where is Cristijn Sarvaas' (CEO of VSTEP) saying to his customers "Look, I know the product is buggy and unfinished due to publisher pressures. We are rectifying this as soon as possible and will keep you fully informed of when we expect to get there. To make up for your disappointment, we'll give all those who registered the product before xxx a free ship in xxx months to show how we value your custom".
Rule 1 of business: You keep your customers happy! VSTEP has no special dispensation that requires us to spend what limited finances we have with them. As one of the primary public faces of VSTEP, that role falls on the moderators of this forum.
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Well said PoRL,
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I don't want to add to the fire, I have been quiet for quite some time now but I do want to say I totally agree with what PoRL just said. And indeed, why not both the solution and an apology?
Look, a solution to the problems is without a doubt something they will have to come up with anyways, with or without an apology. They need to fix it, I (we) didn't spend $55 for nothing.. I am willing to wait but, honestly, I feel kinda jibbed and I would not have paid that much for a game if I knew it would be like this, there are better quality, less buggy games around for far less money. An apology would have been the very least they could've given. The problems need to be fixed anyways, but the apology should've been offered as well. A formal apology doesn't cost money and hardly any effort. However, the only thing I ever heard officially from VSTEP so far is one of their devs posting in the forums the quality was reduced in order to keep the framerates up, and of course the email about the Steam version (which didn't even apply to me).
Don't get me wrong, I do understand the problems, especially the one from the delivery date and the publishers (and that is also mainly why I haven't been complaining that much anymore lately), but, to be honest, I seriously doubt that if a SS12 or whatever version will ever come out, I will be among the first to buy it.. if anything, I will wait until the price has been greatly reduced again and the problems has been fixed, as I also did with SS08 for the same reasons. I hoped this time around they would've learned from those problems, but apparently they didn't and seeing how things go, and from my experience as a developer for various Dutch firms when I still lived there, I kind of doubt they will ever learn. Personally I think it is a certain Dutch attitude (and before any Dutchies start to flame me over those words: I am Dutch myself so I know what I am talking about). So next time, if VSTEP already sees any money from me for a new version, it will not happen before the price is greatly reduced. Their loss, not mine..
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Svache, i find myself agreeing with you; I don't see myself picking up a future expansion or SS version release unless i find it in the $4.99 bin at Walmart sad to say. :-\
One last observation and I've said my peace. I understand the justifications that have been given, but it's just not acceptable to knowingly sell a product that has defects or is incomplete while marketing it as something else on the basis of commercial pressure.
In this case it's a simple piece of software, and VSTEP will suffer additional reputational damage amongst people who have been supporting them thus far. Good thing we are only talking about the gaming software here....right? Hopefully they don't pull stunts like this on their Nautis product line aimed at professional training. (VSTEP should also realize, it's not all kids and gamers on here...there are a lot of maritime professionals here also drawn in by the subject of this game and this doesn't reflect well on a company that wants to be engaged in the the industry professionally)
Anyway, i'm done here; see you in 3-4 months and hope we have some more pleasant things to talk about here. ;)
Cheers,
Cloud
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I'm sorry but what i'm reading here is beyond believe.
I should be happy because:
1. Now Vstep has my money so they can make the program work as intended.
2. Nobody tells us if or when something will get fixed <---> I am uninformed so i shouldn't moan.
3. The 2008 version also had problems so i should've expected that VSTEP would sell me a lemon.
4. SSE was thoroughly tested. It was released with known bugs because VSTEP had no choice.
Seriously, i am a customer not a bank. When i pay for something i want it to work. If it doesn't work as intended then don't sell it to consumers, or print a warning on the package like: 'This is a BETA version, buying this gives you the right to update to the final version if or when it's released.'.
I don't have any bindings to Vstep. I don't care if they make money or not, if they go bankrupt or not or if the developers cry themself to sleep every night. They are not my family, nor my friend, they are a professional company i buy software from and i expect them to deliver. If i'd go out to buy a car and the dealer said: "This is our newest model, it's the best car ever but it has no engine, we didn't have time for that, you'll get it when it's done, in a few months or so." then i'd spend my money elsewhere.
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I like what I have got so far. It works pretty well actually.
However I must agree with the thought that the Company should apologize on the Forum and on the MY ACCOUNT when we sign in, with the promise of a free ship in the future. The latter really won't cost the company much and would get them good publicity.
I want VStep to succeed, because I want my Ship Sim Extremes to work very well - as promised. Remember I love what I have already received, incomplete though it is.
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@pinobot,
You will be informed infront,even we dont know what error(s)or bugs will be taken care of first.However i know from the past that Vstep will inform us with a list of the expected repairs.
Also the 2008 version was far from what it suppossed to be,in the beginning.On the end it became a very nice game to play.
Marc
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You may or may not have a good point there, Stu! :)
The possibility remains still that I might have a good point or might not have a good point. However, you might have a good point or might not have a good point about whether or not I have a good point to make. In addition you might even think that to discuss whether or not you might or might not have a good point in judging whether or not I have a good point about your point is a little spurious.
However, in the interests of transparancy I must say that I am absolutely sure that I may or may not certainly have the possibility of having a point. Clear?
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Stuart2007, is your real name Sir Humphrey Appleby by any chance? ;D
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Can't quite see your point, Stuart!!! ;D
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The whole point is that there is no point. ::) Where is your sense of humour? It's a Joke for Petes sake. :doh:
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The whole point is that there is no point. ::) Where is your sense of humour? It's a Joke for Petes sake. :doh:
Personally, I may or may not have a sense of humour, just as Stu may or may not have eaten Marmite today...
What am I saying - of Course Stu has had Marmite today... :doh:
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The whole point is that there is no point. ::) Where is your sense of humour? It's a Joke for Petes sake. :doh:
Hi Angus,
The same can be said for this entire topic.
Regards,
Marty
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Marty,
You may have a point. !:)
Regards,
Angus.
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Hi, Its Birder not Binder, :)
Sorry, the 'rd' looked like an 'nd' on my laptop :)
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The same can be said for this entire topic.
Or vice versa..
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Hi Folks
For information,
Frank_VSTEP has contacted me and agreed to refund my SSE purchase in full, and i am sure he is a man of his word and the refund will come.
Best of luck to you all