Ship Simulator

English forum => Ship Simulator 2008 => General discussions => Topic started by: Ozy783 on January 16, 2010, 14:55:32

Title: Selsey I
Post by: Ozy783 on January 16, 2010, 14:55:32
Yay! A sailing ship.

As you may well of seen the new free ship in the shipyard. :)
I have to say, I've been sailing around padstow and in high waves and it's challenging to handle with is awesome.
The model (before you complain) is converted from AI and that is why it's not Ultra High Quality.

The dynamics of it are great, feels like the real thing (I drove one at norfolk once).
There is a new display on the controls I don't recognise but It looks to be realistic. :P (I think it's a compas)
I love the little white light on the top  :lol:

I like the sight seeing mission in the french place (I can't spell marliels or whatever)

Overall it's a great pack. Just like the Selsey II.

Very Nice :)
Title: Re: Selsey I
Post by: TerryRussell on January 16, 2010, 16:59:25
Hi Ozy783.

Glad you like it.

The new display is a wind direction indicator. It is supposed to show the wind heading relative to your vessel, allowing for the speed and direction you are travelling. It is a dial that was already available in the "toolkit", but not used on many other vessels. Think of it as being a bit like a weather vane.

I tried to make this sailing boat as similar as I could to the many real ones I have been out in over the years. Almost every time I get into one, the wind drops and we end up using the engine! Mind you, every time I go out in my power boat, the wind picks up...

The original AI vessel was very low quality, as it was only intended to be seen from a distance. I did everything it is possible to do to remove the fuzziness, The end result is as good as it is possible to be, given the limitations of the model and the simulator processes.

I have to say that some of the testers were unsure if they would like a sailing vessel, but all of them came back to say that this one is fun. And that's what it is all about. No claims to great accuracy, this one is just for fun.  :2thumbs:
Title: Re: Selsey I
Post by: Captain Cadet on January 16, 2010, 17:03:35
Hi Ozy783.

Glad you like it.

The new display is a wind direction indicator. It is supposed to show the wind heading relative to your vessel, allowing for the speed and direction you are travelling. It is a dial that was already available in the "toolkit", but not used on many other vessels. Think of it as being a bit like a weather vane.

I tried to make this sailing boat as similar as I could to the many real ones I have been out in over the years. Almost every time I get into one, the wind drops and we end up using the engine! Mind you, every time I go out in my power boat, the wind picks up...

The original AI vessel was very low quality, as it was only intended to be seen from a distance. I did everything it is possible to do to remove the fuzziness, The end result is as good as it is possible to be, given the limitations of the model and the simulator processes.

I have to say that some of the testers were unsure if they would like a sailing vessel, but all of them came back to say that this one is fun. And that's what it is all about. No claims to great accuracy, this one is just for fun.  :2thumbs:
so what is the see through side barrios on the boat.
you can see it on the corners of the vessel
Title: Re: Selsey I
Post by: McGherkin on January 16, 2010, 18:41:43
Don't know why but the Selsey I appears as a tug. PULL!!!
Title: Re: Selsey I
Post by: Aad The Pirate on January 16, 2010, 19:22:08
Whooooow, what a superb Add-On, and for FREE.
Thank You very much, Terry.
Just a little warning to all players:
Don't try to go with the Selsey I  under the Erasmus Bridge during High Tide (whenever that is in game) She would not fit. See attachment
Title: Re: Selsey I
Post by: Kevinmcg_ships on January 16, 2010, 19:26:48
I would like to show my appreciation also for the recent add-on. The SELSEY I sailing boat is very nice and I've really enjoyed playing it. Something different and unique as well.

Thanks very much!  :2thumbs: :2thumbs: :2thumbs:
Title: Re: Selsey I
Post by: Traddles on January 16, 2010, 19:37:47
I second those comments. A really nice addition and great fun too.
Title: Re: Selsey I
Post by: TerryRussell on January 16, 2010, 20:35:14
Don't know why but the Selsey I appears as a tug. PULL!!!

It's because in the game, it has a built-in set of ship categories. There isn't one for sailing vessles, so it defaults to a tug. Vstep never intended to have sailing boats as playable vessels, of course.

So, what next? Playable buoys? Playable ramps? Probably not...  :evil:

Whooooow, what a superb Add-On, and for FREE.
Thank You very much, Terry.
Just a little warning to all players:
Don't try to go with the Selsey I  under the Erasmus Bridge during High Tide (whenever that is in game) She would not fit. See attachment

Ha ha! I love that one, Aad!  ;D
Title: Re: Selsey I
Post by: jammydodger on January 16, 2010, 20:44:58
 :lol: ;D ;D ;D :lol:
In fact I think that means I WILL try it!  :lol:
As I have said in that re-skin thread somewhere ( :lol:) thanks for this great effort. Only cirism is the controls and helm - from the picture(!) I've seen of the helm view, you are inside some sort of box shape cut into the hull  ??? and the throttle appears to be underneath/behind the wheel's "arms".
Otherwise, brilliant work. Bloomin' fantastic! I hope that vessels such as this are included in SSE. Or perhaps an expansion, since we've had one expansion for every SS game in the past  ;D It's good to be able to sail something like this in an accurate real world environment which includes ships many, many times bigger than it that you could skipper as well! That would mean a perfect all round maritime simulation! (bar submarines, but I don't suppose you see many civvie subs do you  :lol:)
The light on the top of the mast is called the Masthead Light I believe, if such a thing exists  :lol: Either that or the Steaming Light.
I can't believe it! My dad has a Moody 30 from the 70s in Dover, called the Sulac. We go out on it whenever we're down there (bar check overs) and I can't remember something as simple as lights! :doh:
Now, does a red traffic light mean go, or amber?  :doh:
Title: Re: Selsey I
Post by: TerryRussell on January 16, 2010, 22:40:09
Hi Jammydodger.

The type of light on this one is known as a "combined masthead unit". According to shipping regulations :

Sailboats 7 to 20 metres or more in length must show:


So this one obeys the first option.

For the controls, I was limited as to where and how I could fit anything. The hatchway was the only available place. In the original model, I think it was supposed to look like an entrance to a galley area. But the vessel is far too small for that, so I changed it to be just a cut-away. And then I fitted the controls in.

It is actually almost identical to a sailing boat at Chichester Marina in the jetty opposite where I keep my power boat. The owner of the sailing boat has his controls laid out in exactly that way.

Title: Re: Selsey I
Post by: Offizier on January 16, 2010, 23:29:02
What is the meaning of "Selsey"  ???
Title: Re: Selsey I
Post by: The Ferry Man on January 16, 2010, 23:38:44
What is the meaning of "Selsey"  ???


It is a small town in England
Title: Re: Selsey I
Post by: Offizier on January 16, 2010, 23:43:43
And Why do they Name the ships like this town ???
Title: Re: Selsey I
Post by: The Ferry Man on January 16, 2010, 23:45:20
And Why do they Name the ships like this town ???

A certain forum member who may have a large part in the process may happen to live there...

***Cough*** terry ***Cough***
Title: Re: Selsey I
Post by: TerryRussell on January 17, 2010, 00:02:23
A certain forum member who may have a large part in the process may happen to live there...

***Cough*** terry ***Cough***

Really?

I thought it was only Patrick Moore who lived there, near to me. Small world, eh?
Title: Re: Selsey I
Post by: The Ferry Man on January 17, 2010, 00:07:44
Very small
Title: Re: Selsey I
Post by: jammydodger on January 17, 2010, 00:15:21
@Terry: My dad's boat is 30ft.
He has a steaming light, masthead light, a stern light, and port/starboard lights (on the bow :doh:).
Title: Re: Selsey I
Post by: bjrr on January 18, 2010, 22:08:52
A really nice addition and great fun too
Title: Re: Selsey I
Post by: TerryRussell on January 18, 2010, 23:59:23
Worth every penny!  :evil:
Title: Re: Selsey I
Post by: Firestar on January 19, 2010, 01:30:40
Whooooow, what a superb Add-On, and for FREE.
Thank You very much, Terry.
Just a little warning to all players:
Don't try to go with the Selsey I  under the Erasmus Bridge during High Tide (whenever that is in game) She would not fit. See attachment
Here's a better question:

What ship WOULD fit even under low tide? :lol:

Nice addon Terry, love it!
Worth every penny!  :evil:
It certainly is! ;D
Title: Re: Selsey I
Post by: Captain. Mitch on January 19, 2010, 11:04:54
I need to sey too that it's a good ship! It's very good and it's free, every free add-on is a perfect thing  ;D

IT WOULD BE SO GREAT TO SEE THE SS ROTTERDAM FROM AI TO A PLAYABL VESSLE! IT'S A VERY COOL SHIP!

Good bye!
Title: Re: Selsey I
Post by: Vossi on January 19, 2010, 14:45:53
Hi all,

this is a nice addon for me  ;) Thanks to the creators!
I think it have a nearly realistic handling characteristic  8)

Greets, Vossi
Title: Re: Selsey I
Post by: jim.smith on January 19, 2010, 17:34:13
My sentiments as well. :2thumbs:
Title: Re: Selsey I
Post by: Aad The Pirate on January 19, 2010, 19:37:34
Here's a better question:

What ship WOULD fit even under low tide? :lol:


How about 50%+ of the SS08 fleet?
Agile Solution    No
Titanic             No
Ocean Star       No
Hercules Atlas   Yes
ADF Vermaas     No
Harbourtug        Yes
Historic Yacht    Yes
Hovercraft         Yes
RPA 12              Yes
Jet Ski              Yes
Jumbo Javelin     No
Pilots Pioneer     Yes
Bugsier 2           No
Patrolboat P6     Yes
Arie Visser         Yes
Igor K.              Yes
Selsey II           No
Marbella Delight  Yes
Red Jet 4          Yes
Speedboat        Yes
Furie                Yes
Latitude            No
Red Eagle          No
Pride of R-dam    No
Northern Star      No
Water Taxi          Yes
Fairmount Sherpa  No
Elbe                    No
Selsey I               No

14 x NO
15 x YES  
Title: Re: Selsey I
Post by: McGherkin on January 19, 2010, 19:41:26
How about 50%+ of the SS08 fleet?

Don't tell me you tried for each one?

Hoovercraft

*ahem*

Hoovers suck, Hovercraft blow.  ;D

Title: Re: Selsey I
Post by: Stuart2007 on January 19, 2010, 20:11:28
Hoovers suck, Hovercraft blow.  ;D
careful McG. Some of our American members might think you are showing disrespect to a type of vacumn clearner there.
Title: Re: Selsey I
Post by: McGherkin on January 19, 2010, 20:13:07
careful McG. Some of our American members might think you are showing disrespect to a type of vacumn clearner there.

Sorry, I have only one word for Vacuum Cleaner enthusiasts;

DYSON

 ;D
Title: Re: Selsey I
Post by: Stuart2007 on January 19, 2010, 20:47:40
Sorry, I have only one word for Vacuum Cleaner enthusiasts;

DYSON

 ;D

Suckers?
Title: Re: Selsey I
Post by: Aad The Pirate on January 19, 2010, 21:59:10
Don't tell me you tried for each one?

*ahem*

Hoovers suck, Hovercraft blow.  ;D


No, I knew 'cause I play SS08 for quite a while now and special in my Hometown I trie the whole enviroment with as much as possible vessels.

Sorry for the Typo, nobody is perfect.
BTW, my middlename is nobody.
Title: Re: Selsey I
Post by: McGherkin on January 20, 2010, 08:26:12
No, I knew 'cause I play SS08 for quite a while now and special in my Hometown I trie the whole enviroment with as much as possible vessels.

Sorry for the Typo, nobody is perfect.
BTW, my middlename is nobody.

Okay and don't worry we're only pulling your leg!
Title: Re: Selsey I
Post by: Ncena1 on January 20, 2010, 13:23:24
The selsey 2 is an awesome add-on, maybe its not the best model, but the dynamics are blowing me away! awesome, i drive alot in a sailing boat like that and its so near :thumbs:

And the best is, that it's for free!
Title: Re: Selsey I
Post by: Aad The Pirate on January 20, 2010, 18:04:28
The selsey 2 is an awesome add-on, maybe its not the best model, but the dynamics are blowing me away! awesome, i drive alot in a sailing boat like that and its so near :thumbs:

And the best is, that it's for free!
I assume that your comment is about the Sailing Boat, right?
Well her name is Selsey I (one) and not Selsey II (two).
Title: Re: Selsey I
Post by: TerryRussell on January 20, 2010, 23:10:23
Selsey III and IV will be good, as well... (I may change the names, though)
Title: Re: Selsey I
Post by: The Ferry Man on January 20, 2010, 23:32:10
Selsey III and IV will be good, as well... (I may change the names, though)

Looking forward to them  :thumbs: :thumbs:

*Starts praying that one will be the Coromuel...

*Implants Subliminal Message: Earl Granville (http://www.faktaomfartyg.se/earl_granville_1973_bild_3.htmhttp://www.faktaomfartyg.se/earl_granville_1973_bild_3.htm)  !:)
Title: Re: Selsey I
Post by: saltydog on January 20, 2010, 23:55:41
What's wrong in saying that Hoovers suck..?  That's what they're supposed to do, aren't they..?
The opposite of Moby Dick ..  :doh:
Title: Re: Selsey I
Post by: Ncena1 on January 22, 2010, 13:53:41
I assume that your comment is about the Sailing Boat, right?
Well her name is Selsey I (one) and not Selsey II (two).

of course  :doh:
Title: Re: Selsey I
Post by: Mad_Fred on January 22, 2010, 15:22:47
*Starts praying that one will be the Coromuel...


I wouldn't get my hopes up.  ::)

Only AI vessels that already have the basic dynamics to sail can be used for Terry's projects, since he can't add a 3d model to the game and make it playable, nor turn a static ojbect sailable. He can only finetune what is there, already sailing abouts, so to speak. It takes the Vstep team a lot of time and effort to turn a ship from bare model to player vessel. And that core part can only be done by them. All the ships that ARE already sailing and thus have that part covered, are eligable, they can then be outfitted with new 'forces' and such, to tweak the performance to what you need it to be. This is still a big effort ofcourse, not just anyone can do that. And it leaves plenty of ships still to perhaps be converted, no worries about that!  :2thumbs:

So think AI vessels, rather than static objects or new objects being introduced.

I have my hopes up for certain ones..  so Terry.. think Dutch! Think canals/rivers..   hehe   ;)
Title: Re: Selsey I
Post by: Ballast on January 22, 2010, 15:46:51
I have my hopes up for certain ones..  so Terry.. think Dutch! Think canals/rivers..   hehe   ;)

[cough] That container vessel from SS06 and the Voortvarend Besparen demo [/cough] :angel:
Title: Re: Selsey I
Post by: The Ferry Man on January 22, 2010, 16:29:14

I wouldn't get my hopes up.  ::)

Only AI vessels that already have the basic dynamics to sail can be used for Terry's projects, since he can't add a 3d model to the game and make it playable, nor turn a static ojbect sailable. He can only finetune what is there, already sailing abouts, so to speak. It takes the Vstep team a lot of time and effort to turn a ship from bare model to player vessel. And that core part can only be done by them. All the ships that ARE already sailing and thus have that part covered, are eligable, they can then be outfitted with new 'forces' and such, to tweak the performance to what you need it to be. This is still a big effort ofcourse, not just anyone can do that. And it leaves plenty of ships still to perhaps be converted, no worries about that!  :2thumbs:

So think AI vessels, rather than static objects or new objects being introduced.

I have my hopes up for certain ones..  so Terry.. think Dutch! Think canals/rivers..   hehe   ;)

Okay didn't realise that...

but still...  :(

Well all the packs are good...  :thumbs:
Title: Re: Selsey I
Post by: TerryRussell on January 22, 2010, 16:31:38
Fred is quite right that the static objects cannot be turned into playable vessels. They aren't really ships, just a picture of a ship.

In many (most) cases, the AI vessels cannot be used. As described elsewhere, unless the surfaces have been layered in such a way as to be suitably opaqure when viwed from the inside as well as the outside, they simply are not there when you go inside the vessel. And most of them are constructed in that way, of course. Why wouldn't they be? Otherwise it would increase the loading on Ship Simulator to a level where you couldn't play the game at all.

The AI ships are designed to be viewed from a distance. The sailing boat is just a jpg image laid over the top of a box that is shaped like a boat. It's an excellent impression from a short way away, but close up, it does not look so good. So Selsey 1 was originally a blurry impression of edges and surfaces. Although I spent a lot of time adjusting the overlay image, the sailing boat can never look any sharper than it does now or have any more detail in it. But it is a good impression and it is a lot of fun!  :thumbs:

The vessels in Ship Simulator 2006 are a completely different format and cannot be transferred across. They need rebuilding from scratch. Although I can do most of that, it also needs a lot of time from Vstep developers to integrate them into the game after that, before I can continue with the other stages. I therefore won't/can't do it. (I want Extremes to come out on time, just like everyone else!).

Similarly, the Voortvarend Besparen vessels are not Ship SImulator 2008 compatible. They are actualy closer to Pro, but not identical. Again, they could be rebuilt from scratch, but...

Now, all that said, there are two special cases that I can add to the game myself. Neither has ever been in Ship Simulator 2006 or 2008. One is very Dutch. The other is bigger than any other ship in the game. I have spent a lot of time making sure it can get into the major ports (Padstow is out, though!). I hope you enjoy both of them.

In both cases, they are nearing completion and are being tested by the team. But something could turn up that means they can't be used. So no promises. Also, no matter what, from the way they were originally developed, these ships can't have smoke or wakes. I can only do that if I seriously disturb Vstep developers and I won't do that.

But they do have walk throughs, detailed interiors and so on.
Title: Re: Selsey I
Post by: Aad The Pirate on January 22, 2010, 17:47:36
Ahoy Terry,
First of all: Thank You and your companions for the last Super-Pack  :2thumbs:. Thanks to your spouse too for her patience (she must be quite sulky when you are working for the community :C).
Your last post made me very curious, can't wait but have to.
Any chance that the SS Rotterdam (SS 08 CE - The Dutch version) is suitable to be transferred from a towable to a playable vessel?
Kind regards
Aad
Title: Re: Selsey I
Post by: TerryRussell on January 22, 2010, 18:10:08
I couldn't possibly release these super packs week after week without the continual help from Horst (Artship), Eric (Sadsid), Hugh (HughGammon) and Des Healey (Thassos). Week after week they write missions, test them, check my vessels and give valuable feedback on all sorts of things. For every hour I put in, they must put in about 5 -10 more. Gents, THANK YOU!

Bev, Dana and Hana (the Spambot in my life) are always interested in my work on the Ships. Keeps me out of their way, I suspect...

Regarding SS Rotterdam, I simply don't know. I keep meaning to locate and buy a copy of the Dutch game and keep forgetting.  :doh:
Title: Re: Selsey I
Post by: Stuart2007 on January 22, 2010, 18:37:15
I'm sure for all the valuable work that you do for the community and vstep, I would have thought they could send you a copy, Doc. It would at least be a gesture of appreciation on their part...


Terry, I'm curious about one thing. You (and others) say that vessels need to be re-made from scratch. Seeing as how they are- in the first instance- just a collection of joined up dots with a 3 figure key to describe their relative location, surely this doesn't mean that the entire model needs to be made from scratch.

I can quite appreciate that the dynamics and other 'magic' will be, but not the actual 3d model, surely. Therefore, as someone mentioned the Corumnel (sp?)- can a ship of similar size/type not 'donate' its dynamics to that ship?
Title: Re: Selsey I
Post by: TerryRussell on January 22, 2010, 18:52:14
Terry, I'm curious about one thing. You (and others) say that vessels need to be re-made from scratch. Seeing as how they are- in the first instance- just a collection of joined up dots with a 3 figure key to describe their relative location, surely this doesn't mean that the entire model needs to be made from scratch.

I can quite appreciate that the dynamics and other 'magic' will be, but not the actual 3d model, surely. Therefore, as someone mentioned the Corumnel (sp?)- can a ship of similar size/type not 'donate' its dynamics to that ship?

The 3-D model isn't the scratch they have to start from. The model has to first of all be delayered and various magical incantations and sacrificial rites performed. Then it has to be "questivated" (my term!), which can take a huge amount of time. That is a specific excercise for the version of Ship SImulator.

That just gives a hull that floats. Then all the other stuff has to be done, from adding in the helm control layers and linking them to the relevant bits (no point linking the rudder controls to the engine speed, etc) through to setting up all the lights and selecting their actions (lit when moored, lit when being towed, and all the other options). The solid sufaces have to be set up for walkthroughs, all the camera locations set up and and and and...

The dynamics are totally different for each vessel. When I do a simple thing like change one element, such as the mass of the vessel (as I did with the Pontoon for this week's release), that affects every one of the dynamics. It can take a week or more just make the thing float properly never mind turn correctly and pitch and roll correctly.

It is by no means a simple process. If I could take the dynamics of something else, I would be so happy... (dreaming...)

As each game has more and more dynamics controls and so on, they don't transfer. Rebuilding a vessel for a different game means redoing it all.
Title: Re: Selsey I
Post by: Offizier on January 22, 2010, 21:45:31
Can someone explain me what is new with the Jumbo Pontoon and what this Cargo carrying facility is?
Title: Re: Selsey I
Post by: McGherkin on January 22, 2010, 21:47:10
Can someone explain me what is new with the Jumbo Pontoon and what this Cargo carrying facility is?

New dynamics which I haven't really tested yet, and it can now carry containers, and has lights...
Title: Re: Selsey I
Post by: TerryRussell on January 22, 2010, 23:08:49
There is a list in the file that comes with it.

But in summary, you should find that:

Title: Re: Selsey I
Post by: Stuart2007 on January 23, 2010, 09:52:25
The 3-D model isn't the scratch they have to start from. The model has to first of all be delayered and various magical incantations and sacrificial rites performed. Then it has to be "questivated" (my term!), which can take a huge amount of time. That is a specific excercise for the version of Ship SImulator.

That just gives a hull that floats. Then all the other stuff has to be done, from adding in the helm control layers and linking them to the relevant bits (no point linking the rudder controls to the engine speed, etc) through to setting up all the lights and selecting their actions (lit when moored, lit when being towed, and all the other options). The solid sufaces have to be set up for walkthroughs, all the camera locations set up and and and and...

The dynamics are totally different for each vessel. When I do a simple thing like change one element, such as the mass of the vessel (as I did with the Pontoon for this week's release), that affects every one of the dynamics. It can take a week or more just make the thing float properly never mind turn correctly and pitch and roll correctly.

It is by no means a simple process. If I could take the dynamics of something else, I would be so happy... (dreaming...)

As each game has more and more dynamics controls and so on, they don't transfer. Rebuilding a vessel for a different game means redoing it all.
Forgive the large quote, but just to avoid confusion. Doc, I wasn't being sarcastic for once. Sacrificial incantations? Sounds like it :lol:

What I mean is, for example if one were to make a model of the Pride of Hull, it would be the same model- both appearance and dynamics, yes?

If one were to then take a similar sized ship with similar engine power, GRT etc etc, but a different physical appearance, then the dynamics would be sufficiently similar as far as a game type simulator to be acceptable, perhaps?

I am not trying to make light of the work that either vstep does or you and your CF friends at all. Just a genuine interest in the technical aspects of it. I can see how making collision models for walkthroughs etc and 'questivating' it can be time consuming. All I mean by this is what percentage of this work can be re-used on a generic basis.. From what you are saying, not a great deal :(
Title: Re: Selsey I
Post by: TerryRussell on January 23, 2010, 15:41:28
Hi Stu.

So far none of the work has been reusable (damn!). There are no vessels in Ship Simulator that are much like any other, of course.

If the vessels were identical in terms of hull shape, size, weight, engines etc, then yes, I guess it would be possible to cut and paste the dynamics, lights and so on PoR => PoH). But, sadly, every ship seems to be different in some way. Even very close siblings seem to always have some difference. Engine responses seem to vary immensely even on apparent clones. A barnacle in a different place seems to affect the handling wildly. That might be that the test data on them is not consistent, or it may be the real situation. Not quite sure about that, but I suspect it is a bit of both. Reliable test data is difficult to get, when it is available at all.

Then, even a tiny change to the dynamics files causes all the work I mentioned above. It isn't a situation I'm happy with, and I would love to get the computer to do the drudgery, but I haven't managed that (yet).

As an illustration, I have been working on Latitude. I had previously managed to get it to have less draft by changing the mass and a lot of other tweaks (artificially changing the centre of floation etc). That resulted in a vessel that could do what I wanted, but where the AI version was not so good. AIs use a set of light-weight in-built dynamics that don't take much computation. But when you come closer, they switch to the full set. This was causing them to suddenly shed 70,000 tons of mass and leap skywards.

So, I went back to basics and redid the entire set of dynamics. After several goes around the block, I have come up with a version that works extremely well. So, even for a vessel that is identical to itself (naturally!), I had to rewrite the dynamics.

Now, off to sacrifice a few chickens (that was a joke!). I like nice, precise things. To me the flitting back and forth to tune everything up really does feel like "hubble and bubble", sometimes.
Title: Re: Selsey I
Post by: Stuart2007 on January 23, 2010, 17:47:39
Thanks for that, Terry.

That has explained one or two points a lot clearer than anyhwere else before- especially about the flying tanker! :o

So if I understand you correctly, you don't put in 'how a ship will behave under XYZ' you tell the computer 'this ship is x heavy y long z soonandsoforth' and let the computer work out how it actually behaves... The programme is trying to calculate in real time what the ship will do...

Ouch... I didn't realise that was the way it was done. Now I see why certain things can't be done... Damned and blast (replacing the two words that goderators like deleting)  :(
Title: Re: Selsey I
Post by: TerryRussell on January 23, 2010, 18:56:04
Thanks for that, Terry.

So if I understand you correctly, you don't put in 'how a ship will behave under XYZ' you tell the computer 'this ship is x heavy y long z soonandsoforth' and let the computer work out how it actually behaves... The programme is trying to calculate in real time what the ship will do...

Pretty much.


I simplified it somewhat. Each element of the ship's performance has a number of things that describe it. For many of them I have to draw a graph, for instance, there is a graph of change of thrust. So, I have to plot points that control how fast the thrust increases/decreases when you slide the control forwards or backwards (one graph for each direction). It has to account for the speed at which the vessel is going now, where the thrust control was when you started the movement and where it is now. I also have to explain to the computer (by way of graphs/forumlae etc) that the amount of change is further affected by the speed of the ship at each instant.

And that's for a very simple thing: speeding up by pushing the throttle forward.

There are settings for everythng imaginable. How about this:

There are a set of curves for the efect that the waves have as they hit the side of the vessel. This changes according to strength of the waves (of course) as well as the angle at whch they hit and the forward speed of the vessel.

These are in turn affected by the curves that describe the moments of inertia of the vessel in each of 12-ish different ways - linear momentum/inertia, angular momentum/inertia on each axis, and the limiting factors ("damping") in each axis, both linear and angular.

And those are affected by things like the bow resistance, sides resistance, bottom resistance, all of which have their own curves. And so it goes round.

Then factor in the forward speed, rate of acceleration, mass of the vessel, centre of mass, centre of floatation, and all the other stuff.

I am truly amazed that the PC can do this for a single vessel, never mind every vessel, evey buoy, static, AI and player in the environment.

You get to understand why Ship Simulator needs a high-spec PC and why people roll their eyes when they read "Well, I can play {insert name of game} OK on my PC."

Actually, I think this is probably easier to do than to explain.

Maybe....  :evil:
Title: Re: Selsey I
Post by: Stuart2007 on January 23, 2010, 19:09:48
I wonder if these calculations are necessary to this degree for the GAME version... PRO, I can understand.

But most SS08 players, if they are honest, probably are only interested in 'what looks good'
Title: Re: Selsey I
Post by: mvsmith on January 23, 2010, 20:02:47
Terry’s explanation should make it easier to understand why the frame rate gets lower as the number of vessels in a mission increases. Those calculations, or a simplified set, must be performed for every ship in the environment before each frame is rendered.

Those calculations are a leading source of QV crashes with a newton.dll error.

It also helps to explain why the true speed of ships depends upon the frame rate.


Title: Re: Selsey I
Post by: TerryRussell on January 23, 2010, 20:24:33
I wonder if these calculations are necessary to this degree for the GAME version... PRO, I can understand.

But most SS08 players, if they are honest, probably are only interested in 'what looks good'

If any of them are set wrong, it does make the vessel handle "wrongly". Reading the comments about Virtual Sailor, which has less parameters, the difference in realistic performance does seem to be noticed by even quite young and inexperienced (presumably) players. So I think that if they were reduced, people would notice and comment adversely.
Title: Re: Selsey I
Post by: Stuart2007 on January 23, 2010, 20:32:51
Yes, this is a fair and reasonable point, Doc T.

IMO this is the first proper explanation from ANYONE on the subject. Well done.  :)

I have to admit that recently re-downloading the 1.4.2 update that the PoR handles much more poorly than the original (I have it on good authority that the original one is more accurate)... I must download your recent amendments and see what they are like...

Well, I shall (for once) shut up on this subject and leave you to it.
Title: Re: Selsey I
Post by: Firestar on January 23, 2010, 23:08:29
Hi Stu, many people (including myself) have used the old PoR .dyn file in their current version by replacing the original.
Title: Re: Selsey I
Post by: Stuart2007 on January 24, 2010, 00:20:23
Hi Stu, many people (including myself) have used the old PoR .dyn file in their current version by replacing the original.

I didn't realise you could do that... Does it automatically back it up then, or do I have to re-install the CD, back it up, install 1.4.2 and then reinstall the backup??
Title: Re: Selsey I
Post by: jammydodger on January 24, 2010, 00:50:27
I would have thought there's no backups. Then again it's possible (although it would waste so much space) but you have to know nothing to know anything. :doh:
Title: Re: Selsey I
Post by: matt5674 on January 24, 2010, 05:52:34
Terry,
Maybe Selsey III can be the Klipper and Selsey 4 would be the motor Yachts as a thought :thumbs:


And excellent on the Selsey I and the repaints with the names of the editors of the super packs :2thumbs: I'll be sailing the "Terry Selsey" from New York to Phi Phi through all of the other ports.
Title: Re: Selsey I
Post by: TerryRussell on January 24, 2010, 10:28:03
Terry,
Maybe Selsey III can be the Klipper and Selsey 4 would be the motor Yachts as a thought :thumbs:


And excellent on the Selsey I and the repaints with the names of the editors of the super packs :2thumbs: I'll be sailing the "Terry Selsey" from New York to Phi Phi through all of the other ports.

I looked at the motor yacht but unfortunately, it really isn't usable. Shame, as it would have been nice to have one like that. I would feel most at home in it.

The Klipper doesn't actually have a wheelhouse... But I have been looking and thinking.
Title: Re: Selsey I
Post by: McGherkin on January 24, 2010, 11:39:49
Both motor yachts?
Title: Re: Selsey I
Post by: TJK on January 24, 2010, 11:56:36
HI Terry

Try the inland dry cargo Dortmund or and Classic sail ship- flying Cloud or one of the inlands tanker?
Title: Re: Selsey I
Post by: TerryRussell on January 24, 2010, 18:09:02
I was hoping to be able to use the Dortmunder, as it is the most complete of all the Inland AIs. But unfortunately, the surfaces are only textured to be viewed from outside. When you go inside, all the surfaces are invisible.

Believe me, I have tried each and every AI vessel, to see if any are possible without disturbing the Vstep developers.

I do have three possible candidates though, and two new vessels. So keep watching the weekly releases!
Title: Re: Selsey I
Post by: matt5674 on January 25, 2010, 04:12:46
I will watch the brilliant coming packs' trails till they come lol