Ship Simulator
English forum => Ship Simulator 2008 => General discussions => Topic started by: joelang1699 on January 17, 2009, 00:39:54
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Hi Guys
First off im a Merchant Navy Officer with a good bit of RO-PAX experience so as soon as I had a go of the Pride of Rotterdam I noticed one obvious major thing, she has a standard rudder setup I.E. she dosnt have split rudders, they are on the same tiller...also they cant go hard over to give 90 deg thrust. This is quite a pain as its much harder to swing her stern in Rotterdam than it would be on the real ship. The ship in the game is no where near as maneuverable as the real one.
Could it be im missing something here?
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as far as i know this models turning radius is correct, VSTEP put alot of time into making sure data like this was exact, but then again i could be wrong ::)
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They should have looked at her steering more closely, but then again it could be worse
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They should have looked at her steering more closely, but then again it could be worse
Why don't you take a look at this topic, I think it might be of particular interest to you.
http://www.shipsim.com/ShipSimForum/index.php/topic,9277.0.html
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Joelang1699,
From your comments it doesn't seem you have ever piloted or researched the Pride of Rotterdam?
VSTEP modeled her rudder and maximum rudder angle according to the real vessels specifications. Her maximum rotation is also accurate.
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VSTEP modeled her rudder and maximum rudder angle according to the real vessels specifications. Her maximum rotation is also accurate.
AFAIK and I think this is the case, VSTEP got no vessel specifications from P&O, so the dynamics can't be as accurate as it could be. ;)
Austin, how do you know the max rotation is accurate?
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AFAIK and I think this is the case, VSTEP got no vessel specifications from P&O, so the dynamics can't be as accurate as it could be. ;)
Austin, how do you know the max rotation is accurate?
I believe it was discussed in another topic somewhere. Nathan may have said that it was accurate.
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The vessel dynamics engineers always configure the cesels to behave as closely as possible to the published sea trials data, to which they have access, or any other quantitive data. I know that the data tables for PoR cover several walls. The vessels are tested comprehensively before release.
Some of you have been involved in such tests over on Dreators Forum.
Joelang1699: Welcome to the Forum.
if you have any data that supports your statement, please post it here or send it to me in a PM. We're always grateful forany additional data that m\ay help to improve the vessels.
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Obviously nobody here knows what Becker Rudders are, Yes the initial rudder angle may only go up to 45 deg however the extra flap at the back of the rudder rotates also giving 90 deg transverse thrust. This gives you a crude stern thruster which would be invaluble for swinging the stern into the linkspan and lifting it off again.
http://www.becker-marine-systems.com/03_products_content/03_products_pics/flap_titel.jpg
Most of the modern RoPax vessels out there have them, even vessels with stern thrusters have them fitted.
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I would be very surprised if she dosent have them fitted, even if she dosent she must have the option to enable independent control on the rudders which the sim model lacks.
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Joelang1699: Welcome to the Forum.
if you have any data that supports your statement, please post it here or send it to me in a PM. We're always grateful forany additional data that may help to improve the vessels.
If you got it, post it. Please!
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Joelang1699, there is a way to control both rudders on a ship, you just have to go change the key commands. There are commands for rudder 1 & rudder 2.
It is just not set to have two different keys by default.
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yes I have done that but the Pride of Rotterdam in the sim lacks this option. Also there should be independent control of the bow thrusters(2 thrusters in this case), there isnt.
Terry:
I knew a girl I went to Nautical College with that served on the Pride of Hull, Ill look her up and she if she has any detailed information on the steering gear.
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Thanks. All input is welcome.
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I was searching for photo's of the Pride of Hull in dock, or another images that shows the propellor and rudder but all i found was this picture of a model of the Pride of Hull.
(http://i41.tinypic.com/2zr11rp.jpg)
As you can see, it's fitted with 'spade' rudders. I know it's a model, but someone who puts that much afford in such detailed model and has the orginal blue prints, would make the orginal rudder right?
The picture belongs to this website;
http://www.vow2.co.uk/pride%20of%20hull/pride_of_hull.htm
More pictures there of this awsome model!
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It would be very difficult (but not impossible) to make scale rudders of the becker type for a model of this scale. Also there wouldnt be any real need for them on a model as the manouvreability provided by them simply isnt required, They would also be susceptible to damage.
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Also this model has standard model triple blade propellers, the real thing has four bladed CCP Lips skewed props. Like the rudders it would not be practicable to include this on a model.
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Also this model has standard model triple blade propellers, the real thing has four bladed CCP Lips skewed props. Like the rudders it would not be practicable to include this on a model.
Why don't you show us a picture of Becker Rudders?
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I did, there was a link in the post above
here it is again
http://www.becker-marine-systems.com/03_products_content/03_products_pics/flap_titel.jpg
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Hello all,
Like Terry said, if someone has precise data, it would be interesting for us to get the details, of course. Nathan is some kind of reference concerning PoR, surely, but this time he is not 100% right. Indeed, since August, the pilot card of PoR is available (merci to the Capt), and it says the rudder is a Spade rudder, and a maximum angle of 45 degrees. Stop to Stop is 25 sec with one pump, this info was probably not enough detailed, 30 sec wouldn't be allowed.
The propellers are indeed 4 blade CPP rotating top inside ahead. The pilot card wasn't available in time, so that the characteristics were more reasoned and calculated guesses, and there were some limitations of the model of dynamics too.
Thrusters only give a 40 degrees/sec turning rate, and the turning circles in the game are correct, as far as I can remember.
What is in fact not known in enough detail is the natural roll period (I think around 25 sec? or GM for that matter) and how long it takes to turn PoR when she leaves the Beneluxhaven.
And of course, the rudders could have been separated. Next time, surely, or Creator's forum to check it? ;)
Regards,
Luc
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Becker Marine Systems supplies rudders in a large variety of types and configurations—including full spade—so saying that a ship “has Becker rudders†is saying very little about the rudders.
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I have posted a link (twice) to the type Im referring to, The Becker product catalogue has them listed as "Becker Flap Rudder". They are known internationaly in the maritime industry as Becker Rudders as Becker owns the patent to them.
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Do you have any proof these rudders are the type on the POR?
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Not as yet, im assuming she has them fitted or something similar as mostly all modern ferries have them, especially ones of this scale. My original posting was in reference to the fact the rudders were not split and could not be controlled independently. I have sent an email to Fincantieri (her builders) to ask them what was fitted.
As I said I would be very surprised if they are just simple rudders, as LucAtC said her pilot card has them listed as spades, but I cant realy see this being the case.
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Everybody,
Today i recieved a reply from Captain of PoR:
Indeed the Pride of Rotterdam and Hull have Becker rudders.
This type is called high lift rudders, and can be purchased during newbuilds
from manufacturers such as Becker, Hinze, and some others. The are constructed
in 2 parts and the most aft and outer flap will increase the rudder angle from
30 to about 45 degrees, which will create a side thrust of the aftship in an
angle of 90 degrees.
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A HA, I knew this must have been the case. Thanks for the info Nathan!
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I wonder why she had 'spade' down on her pilot card. Its not uncommon however for ships plans to be wrong, When I served on the MV Davn Merchant in Norfolkline service, she had a compartment in the bow drawn on the plans that didnt exist in reality, none of the ships ships of the class had it!. This was also the case with another small room in the accomodation.
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Your probably right there Nathan there may not be an overwhelming need for seperate control in the game, however a simulation should try to be as accurate as possible.
Independant control could be used for station keeping, one thrusting port and one thrusting starboard, assuming overcourse the thrusters are of the same rating (blade size, rpm, kw)
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Thats another thing, im glad you brought up the windows. The view out the bride wings is quite poor, probably beacause you cant get the camera over far enough (walking mode) to berth the ship while looking astern. As you know this is how we do it in reality. Im not complaining though, I would rather have proper maneuverability than bridge views.
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Fugit irreparabile tempus... I had a closer look at the "Pilot Card and Wheelhouse poster", and saw that the sea trials happened in October 2001, more than enough time since then to improve rudders or anything else more than one time. I doubt Fincantieri could have made such a mistake, but there is also question of (absent) stern thrusters on the poster, raising of course some doubts about its validity. Apparently, PoBruges and PoR underwent important repairs (or modifications?) to their rudders during maintenance works (http://www.shipdock.nl/downloads/files/Seaports%20Magazine2008.pdf) at Amsterdam's Shipdock.
Also, the wheelhouse poster data print is composite, some trials being of PoH and turning circles of PoR; or it could be that the poster wasn't checked by Fincantieri or RINA. (Impossible).
There are surely reasons for having changed the spade rudders to flapped, high lift rudders. The turning circle diameters were (as well at MCR as at full harbour speeds) around 1.8 Lbp at 45 degrees rudder angle, very small circles, with a high speed loss. But if it indicates already good manoeuvring characteristics, it is less significant at near to zero speed, when berthing, where flapped rudders at high angles are at their best.
So, to answer Nathan's question, he could next time try to check if the poster is still valid, and find some more RoT data when PoR turns "on the spot" when leaving her berth in the Beneluxhaven. Some pictures with timestamps, or a video record, would be highly interesting.
Anyway, many thanks for the interesting info.
Regards,
Luc
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Hey Nathan, I dont suppose you could kindly ask the old man on the POR if they sisters were built with Beckers or had them fitted at a later stage?
LucAtC: It is unlikely that Fincantieri never checked the poster but mistakes like this are all two common at sea. When I worked for Norfolkine we discovered that the Dawn and Brave Merchant had their lifeboats swapped at build and that the certificates the vessels had been sailing with for 7 years didnt match the srial numbers in the boats. This was supposed to be checked numerous times since fitting out.
I have seen pilot cards in error before but on with small things, never the wrong type of steering.
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Hello Nathan,
Thanks for the link, it is indeed such videos that give a feeling of the turn rate, and if it was a continuous recording, valuable data can also be derived for the simulation. It will of course never be PoR, but the goal is to give a correct idea of the handling of the ship, as well as possible.
Regards,
Luc
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will ship simulator 2010 hit canada i hop it will i love the game ???
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(http://i41.tinypic.com/2zr11rp.jpg)
As you can see, it's fitted with 'spade' rudders. I know it's a model, but someone who puts that much afford in such detailed model and has the orginal blue prints, would make the orginal rudder right?
it does have four bladed props!!
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Me...I can only see three blades there.
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I ran this through paint shop enhancer, I only count three blades there not four!
(http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p21/joelang1699/Image1-6.jpg)
(http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p21/joelang1699/Image1-7.jpg)
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No guarantee that the model is accurate in that respect though, is there?
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Which model Terry? the one pictured or the one in the agme?
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Exactly!
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Youve lost me mate lol
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well, as the propellors are supposed to be in the water all the time, and as this is a simulation, not a real-life copy, there's no promise of accurracy in the game.
Also, that model in the picture may not be accurrate in that respect. Who can tell?
Don't forget that propellors get changed in real life. The actual performance characteristics may need to be changed as the usage of the vessel is changed. It happens more often than you might think.
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you can just see the fourth you cant see it very well on the background of the other props
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you can just see the fourth you cant see it very well on the background of the other props
The model clearly has 3-blade propellors.
Or what do you mean?
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Pride of Rotterdam and Pride of Hull both have Wartsila highly skewed controllable pitch propellers as stated before.
These propellers from Wartsila only come in 4 or 5 blade configuration. So there is yet another fly in the ointment. She definitely does not have just 3 blades but may in fact have 5.
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Speaking from an extensive RO/PAX background, I never been on a modern ferry with five blades, its more likely she has four blades.
The model pictured incorrectly has a three bladed prop fitted HOWEVER there are other pics of the same model with the right amount of blades (four) fitted.