Ship Simulator
English forum => Ship Simulator 2008 => Topic started by: kev600 on July 18, 2007, 18:38:35
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Is it just my computer or does everyone notice that when you move the the telegraph's from let's say ahead half to ahead full there is suppost to be a noise when you ring not just when the engine room applies more speed! it only rings on mine when the engine room does this??? is this made in the game or does this happen for everyone!!!!
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Happens for me too.
Did you also notice that the Telegraph for the Port Engine is backwards?
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Yup. It needs fixing.
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I used to work aboard the PS Waverley and she still uses original brass chadburn telegraphs. As far as I remember when the bridge officer rings the telegraph on the bridge there are in fact no bells heard there. Bells are heard only in a response from the engine room, as in fact simulated in the game at the moment.
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I used to work aboard the PS Waverley and she still uses original brass chadburn telegraphs. As far as I remember when the bridge officer rings the telegraph on the bridge there are in fact no bells heard there. Bells are heard only in a response from the engine room, as in fact simulated in the game at the moment.
Aye, but what about the ones on Titanic? They ring bells in the films too, so there must be some truth to it.
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They ring bells in the films too, so there must be some truth to it.
The film is no guarantee for any fact! ;) The film was produced to entertain... it is not a documentary. Why should the bell ring on the bridge? The bell signal used for getting the attention of the engineers - it will have no fuction on the bridge...
Regards
groennegaard
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i pretty sure that they did ring on titanic but it is a huge dissapointement to me. I play this game for the telegraphs alone and titanic. I know this is a bit fussy but the sounds are also very bad in this game. In "a night to remember" and james cameron's "Titanic" the telegraphs sounds are much better and more realistic of what i've heard. Thats snother request lads
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A Night to Remember is classic! ;D
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Hi everyone,
I got the Post a few days ago and as a few of you know that i am really only interested in Titanic. The Problems are stil there just to let you know.
Titanic Still moves at STAND-BY. There is one. There is no noise off the telegrpah when it's turned and last and still most important sort of to do with the stand by is that. When you open up the controls at the bottom left of the screen it's not a telegraph there fore that's being moved when i ahve it at Stand-by so it put power into the engines. Also there is multiple speeds at each station as you can move it to say 22% ahead and then go to 35% ahead and it will still be at Slow. It should all be the same speed!!!
SORRY TO ANNOY YOU LADS
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any chance of an update on the above
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mines always seems to ring minutes after i have changed the speed!!!???
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The engine room telegraph might not have rung on the bridge when set by the bridge officer, but it would have rung on the bridge when acknowledged by the engine room.
As Sonarman pointed out early in this topic, and you can see by looking at the engine order Chadburns at either end of the bridge, there is a small pointer in addition to the handle. That small pointer is set by the Chadburn in the engine room to acknowledge that the order has been recieved and executed. That definitely does ring a bell on the bridge.
If you look through the binoculars at the port telegraph, you can move the handle and see that the pointer follows it after an apropriate delay. The bell rings at each step that the pointer takes.
It is amusing how quick some are to fault VSTEP without paying close attention to what is actually happening, and, in many cases, without any real knowledge of the subject.
Before some expert asks why I call them Chadburns when the Titanic's are by J.W. Ray, William Chadburn is the inventor. His first parent was issued in 1870.
Mauretania and Lusitania used Chadburn instruments.
There is a museum in Liverpool dealing with Chadburn history.
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Hi,
Just to add a little to what MVSmith just posted, if you're wondering what you'd hear when you ran the telegraph through forward, then back to the setting you're calling for, the best example I can think of offhand is and old automatic transmission that's not too smooth anymore. Run your shift all the forward and back and that's about it. (Please, don't!) ..and the bells in wheel-house were so the captain could hear the engine room's answer to his command, whether he was on the bridge, or in either the port or starboard Docking Bridge, where he'd be calling his orders while in harbour or at the dock.
Yours,
:)
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Will there be any way to change it. ???
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Change what? :)
VSTEP has been quite meticulous in emulating the engine order telegraph.
Citing a motion picture as an authority in such matters is ludicrous.
There are exceptions, of course:
Ridley Scott’s depiction of Nostromo’s bridge is dead-bang accurate, and to my knowledge has never been successfully challenged.
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On Titanic there might have been a bell inside the engine order telegraph that rung when the handle where moved by the bridge officer. This to give attention to everyone on the bridge that a new order was sent to the engine room. See this picture: http://titanic.marconigraph.com/telegraph18.jpg (http://titanic.marconigraph.com/telegraph18.jpg)
How to give a new order to the engine room:
1. The bridge officer had to overshoot the handle to ring the bell in the engine rom.
2. The handle is then set to the correct order.
3. In the engine room the officer overshoot the handle to ring the bell at the bridge.
4. The handle is then set to the new order.
In SS08:
if the engine order telegraph is set from STOP to FULL AHEAD, you will hear the bell ring 5 times (it should be 1), this is unrealistic, because this means there is 5 overshoots from the engine room, when there only should be 1.
To understand what I mean with overshoot, read this: http://titanic.marconigraph.com/mgy_eotelegraphs1a.html (http://titanic.marconigraph.com/mgy_eotelegraphs1a.html)
Hope you understand my english..
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Fredriksen,
Thanks for joining the discussion, and for the pictures.
A couple of points:
Your statement, that the answering bell should ring only once in going from Stop to Ahead Full, is contradicted by your drawing of the pawl and clapper. Clearly the bell rings at each step of the answering pointer, as it does in the sim.
This has nothing to do with the practice of overshooting, which was just that: a practice observed on some, but by no means all, ships in order to ensure that an incoming order was noticed above the din of a reciprocating steam engine, and perhaps to signal urgency (like maybe an iceberg).
Motion pictures are generally about drama, and directors are not above adding a few extra ringy-dingys or frantic twitching of the handles to that end.
Individual players, of course, are free to adopt the practice of overshooting when driving Titanic from the bridge, but I doubt that many are quite so fanatical in their demand for realism. :)
Marty
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Thanks Marty :)
I think you have a point.
But what do they mean with: "overshoot to ring the bell"? Is that a EOT with no pawl and clapper?
I realy love Titanic and want to know as mutch as possible about her, and I have got more and more interested in the engine order telegraphs. I realy want to know how they work. :)
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Fredriksen,
I’ll try to find more sources for you.
Remember, there were many other manufacturers of telegraphs, either licensed by Chadburn, or after his original patent expired. You can expect to find some variation in the way they worked.
Try this link:
http://www.chadburntelegraphs.com/ (http://www.chadburntelegraphs.com/)
Med hilsen
Marty
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Hello,
A very interesting and recent document about the slip of the screws of Titanic
http://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/speed_v_revolutions.html
citing also J.W. Ray & Co as apparently makers of the telegraphs of Titanic
Regards,
Luc
edit: also telegraphs howto
http://titanic.marconigraph.com/mgy_eotelegraphs1.html
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On "overshooting"
Whilst working on Waverley I found that "overshooting" was largely a matter of preference for whichever captain was in command. An old merchant navy handbook states that it is bad practice to overshoot as it causes delays in order response. I think some skippers preffered to do it as it could be easy to miss a single bell "ding" in the noise of an engine room. I am also sure that the bell rings on each step
Interestingly on Waverley in the engine room two seperate distinct bell tones can be heard I think the spring tension on the bell hammers is set slightly differently for the astern and ahead zones for the telegraph pointer.
You can hear how Waverley's telegraph sounds in "overshoot" mode here (http://www.waverleyexcursions.co.uk/steamengine.htm)
And see a video of her engine with telegraph sounds here (http://youtube.com/watch?v=W6EbJudRiYQ&mode=related&search=)
I used to love watching the engine at night when all of the passengers had gone ashore and half the lights were out, very dramatic.
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Thanks for those two good links, Luc.
On R/V Argo, a 1940 Navy ARS, Snatch, later an AGOR, the intercom was routinely used for communicating with the engine room. The bridge would ask for “turns for 12 knots†and the engineer would refer to the equivalent of a slip table to set the RPM on the motors.
Argo was diesel-electric drive with four Fairbanks-Morse engine/generators feeding motors on the twin screws. (More or less the same parts used on S-boats of the 30’s)
Marty
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The bridge would ask for “turns for 12 knots†and the engineer would refer to the equivalent of a slip table
Yes I think that was quite often the case, also some telegraphs actually were marked in rpm rather than the usual "full ahead" etc. In addition to the common bridge to engine room telegraphs larger ships also often had engine room to boiler room telegraphs and some ships like Waverley had docking telegraphs to tell the seaman when to haul in /let-go/ make fast ropes & anchors etc
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Looks like the "popup" style telegraph will make a reappearance in the forthcoming addon
link (http://www.tugspotters.com/internationaal.htm)
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Hi,
Good show! ;D For some vessels, it would be more accurate and appropriate.
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as i have started this disscussion i will make my point! I accpet that maybe before The Era of titanic and her sister ships that Telegraphs did not ring when the bridge did giving an order but on Titanic when the bridge rung the telegraph it rung. and then rung again when the engine room gave it back! This is one piece of evidence suggesthing this. Quartermaster Robert Hitchens was in the Wheelhouse on the night of the Collision. As some of you may know he survived and gave vital evidence because the two officers on the bridge at the time both perished. He said that As soon as Moody gave the Murdoch the iceberg right ahead warning he was told to go -Hard-a-Starboard- and as he was turning the wheel he says in his statement that he heard murdoch ringing the Telegraph. And he said it was right after he got the order to go hard-a-starboard! So the engine room didn't get backt that fast for certain. Anyway the more important thing is that when i have my telegraph on STAND-BY titanic starts moving. Please fix Both Problems if you don't mind
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Things to get fixed:
- The telegraphs have to ring when order is sent from the bridge.
- Titanic starts moving when the telegraph is set to Stand By
- It should be able to use the remaining telegraps; emergency, docking and manouvering/steering telegraph.
Something more?
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kev600,
You are right that when you ring Stand By for the Port engine on the starboard telegraph, the engine room answers with Dead Slow Ahead. (20 RPM) This is true only for the “Ahead†Stand By.
This problem doesn’t occur with the port telegraph when ringing for Stand By on the Starboard engine.
As for the throttle, as you point out, it works on different increments from the telegraphs. It is not practicable, then, to control the telegraphs via the arrow keys in a rational manner.
Returning the throttle to zero does result in 0 RPM because it sets both telegraphs to the “astern†Stand By position.
I don’t understand Orinoco’s statement that the telegraph for the Port engine is backwards.
It is the mirror image of that for the Starboard engine so that pushing the handles forward rings forward (which is intuitive). Were the actual telegraphs configured in a non-intuitive fashion?
Sorry, Orinoco, I just looked at the pic in your post, and it is backward there. Your pic must have been pre V1.1, or else the tooth fairey fixed mine. :)
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I accpet that maybe before The Era of titanic and her sister ships that Telegraphs did not ring
Titanic had her maiden voyage in 1912, Waverley had her's in 1947
and as he was turning the wheel he says in his statement that he heard murdoch ringing the Telegraph
It is possible to hear a telegraph moving even without bells, there are wires and chains inside that make an audible noise which would certainally be audible on a steamship (much quieter than a diesel vessel ) especially on one the size of Titanic where the engine room is very far from the bridge. Even if the officer rang a telegraph on the bridge wing the helmsman would hear and see the telegraphs in the bridge move as they are a linked system.
Saying that however there were many types of telegraphs available and it is within the realms of probability that they could have rung on the bridge when pushed (and I prefer it that way too!).
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I would need to know Hitchens’ exact words. Did he say he heard the telegraph ring on the bridge, or did he say he heard Murdoch ringing the telegraph? If the latter, he could have simply heard whatever sound the telegraph made as the handles are moved. As sonarman has twice pointed out, they can be quite noisy. My own experience with various old telegraphs in maritime museums, and aboard a few ships, is that the handles are necessarily heavily detented to prevent them from resting in an ambiguous position. The sound of the detent would be audible and familiar to Hitchens. He would interpret the sound as “ringing the engine roomâ€, as we might describe placing a telephone call as “ringing someone upâ€.
According to the transcript of the US inquiry as quoted in the Titanic – Nautical Society & Resource Center, Hitchens said “He (Murdoch) rushed to the engines. I heard the telegraph bell ring; also give the order ‘Hard a’ starboard’â€.
There are some inconsistencies between his testimony before the US and the British boards.
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I received this reply from Dick Midhage at the Chadburn Society:
Hello Martin
As far as I know all the historical telegraphs, regardless of make, used on the ship's bridge for transmitting engine orders had a clear bell ringing. Twin handled t'ghs had a two-tone bells, to indicate which engine was given the order to change engine speed. Both could also be rung. My main info is from the Cameron epic film, but I am quite sure that the courts records might also show this evidence. You have raised a new point here. If I learn of any further advices, I will write to you.
You have probably seen the Chadburn site, incl. my article of 5 pages under 'Technical'?
Best regards
Dick Midhage (hon.secr.of the Society) Sun. October 14, 2007. York - England.
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Those telegraphs look fake!
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Looks pretty good to me...
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Fred12:
Here is a photo of the bridge of RMS Olympic. It is the one that Cameron’s art department used. It probably was also used in designing the Titanic in this sim.
As Mad_Fred’s pictures, and others from the Chadburn Society show, the telegraphs are very close to the actual instruments.
Marty
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We Are Al So In Need For Realism On The Rms Titanic Why Doesnt Vstep Make A Titanic Version Of Shipsim.
Which Means Only The Titanic Which Is Fully operatable and is fully open inside like that game in 1997 or something "titanic and adventure out of time".
greeting goossens oly
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I personally think that the telegraphs in the Titanic 1997 film look very realistic in appearance and size. A few words would have to be changed but nothing to big. I personally think something like a titanic game would be great or something that has other ships in that era like maybe S.S. Nomadic. A reskin and a few slight adjustments to Titanic into a hospital ship and call her Britannic. And then maybe the luisitania or something. That would be good as a Steam Ship Game. Then everything could be done well. Also i think you should have the option of going into the engine and boiler rooms and maybe act as Chief Engineer or a Fireman. That would be fantastic. Also you see the engines moving and all that. Much more exciting. At the end of the day this will not happen in the near future. It would be nice though
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Of course it should ring when turned on the bridge. Say if
Senior officer on the bridge: "Ahead full"
Junior officer: "Yes sir"
The junior officer turns the lever, its ring wich takes the attention of the senior that the order has been carried out.
Junior of.
"Ahead full sir"
Typical and simple
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Just found a great vid of "Waverley" on youTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOCfFejm2Hs) showing her bridge and engine room (even our friend Red Eagle makes an appearance). You also get a very clear shot of both her engine room and docking telegraphs in the video. As far as I remember when I worked aboard her telegraphs did not ring on the bridge and she had no answering pointer in them either.
In one scene we see her dock at a pier and the only sounds you will hear on the bridge are the officer's orders. I can't speak for Titanic though, it's very possible in a ship of that size her telegraphs did infact ring on the bridge when pushed.
I just watched a film about Dutch ww2 tugs the other day called "The Key" based on a novel by Jan De Hartog and interestingly in one scene Bill Holden rings the telegraph on the bridge and there is no sound and in another later scene a bell is heard, this indicates to me that the editor added the sound (it's a lot easier to add than subtract) signifying that sometimes these things are indeed added purely for dramatic effect.
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I don't know about the telegraphs on titanic but it would be great if you could get to the engine room.
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A number of you have quoted what happens on PS Waverley, however if you want to view twin telegraphs working with twin engines can I suggest you book a trip on SS Shieldhall, built 1956, www.ss-shieldhall.co.uk where we operate an open bridge and engine room policy.
I can confirm you only hear a bell when the engine room repeat the bridge command, however you can hear the chains "rattle" in the guides if you are stood close enough. Don't believe Hollywood, we've got the real thing.
Hope this helps
Andrew ETO
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HI Andrew,
Thanks for that Shieldhall is a great ship, and her cargo today (passengers) is much improved from the old "brown bananas" I used to see her dump off Garroch Head whilst we sailed past on Waverley! Wouldn't it be great to see a UK "preserved ships" pack in the same vein as the Dutch "Elbe/Furie" addon. V-Step could include Shieldhall, Manxman, Waverley, Balmoral and perhaps Simon's Puffer made over as "Vic 32".
Nice website by the way with lots of great info, Did you ever hear the "sludge boat song" by the way, about Shieldhall
& Co?
Thanks
Stephen
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I don't know about the telegraphs on titanic but it would be great if you could get to the engine room.
I'd like to see an engine room too, but only if its a functional part of the game where you can do something moderate steam pressure, use the regulator, telegraph ,pumps etc, not if it's just eye candy.
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I can confirm you only hear a bell when the engine room repeat the bridge command, however you can hear the chains "rattle" in the guides if you are stood close enough. Don't believe Hollywood, we've got the real thing.
Thanks Andrew but are you sure that it wasn't different on Titanic because the Telegraphs were made by a different company and also it was a long time ago.