Titanic's fatual collision

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[Nathan|C]

Motor Vessel Smith pointed this one out a while ago;

If a Ship is doing 23kn, like Titanic was, and hits something, the ship will slow down so quickly and so violently that the passengers on the ship will continue to travel at 23kn for the second or so after the collision, possibly killing them.....

It's a very stupid theory...

[Person264]

Yes a general rule of thumb, always listen to mvsmith, and it's usually best to ignore what i am saying.

But don't ignore this, this is a special occasion (Children In Need)

[mvsmith]

If RMS Titanic had collided head-on with the iceberg, there was a very good chance the ship would have continued on to New York.

Jumping:
http://www.shipsim.com/ShipSimForum/index.php/topic,10503.msg122749.html#msg122749

[captseaton]

You are right about that, Nathan.
(I hate it when that happens!)
The Idea that the Titanic would have survived had she hit the berg square on the bow was first floated by Bruce Ismay during the US inquiry as a way of placing the blame on the bridge. Titanic might have survived, but few of her passengers and crew would have.

The number of "what if" theories surrounding the sinking of the RMS Titanic are staggering.

No matter what, I place the blame of the incident, fully, on the bridge. Specifically, Captain Smith. He ignored the ice warnings and sped through the night at full speed while more prudent Captains in the near vicinity were slowing down and using due caution for the situation.

I understand the calculations made regarding a head on collision with the iceberg. There are many other factors to consider. Naturally any officer would make an effort to avoid a collision with an iceberg, but lets just say they knew she wouldn't turn and just decided to run all three engines full astern to try to slow the vessel's forward momentum a bit. Right off the bat, she wouldn't be hitting the berg at 21 or 22 knots. Even if she hit the berg at 18 knots, this would cause things to fly forward, there would be deaths and severe injuries. I do not think the boilers and triple-expansion engines would come loose and fly forward. One also has to consider the disbursement of the kinetic energy, some of which would be absorbed by the accordion like compacting of the steel at the bow of the ship. This is similar to crumple-zones on modern automobiles. The iceberg, not being a stationary object, would also recoil in an opposite direction to absorb some of the shock.

Most calculations I have read have stated that she would lose two or three compartments forward, but would have remain afloat longer.

One more thing to consider. Again, two different ships from two different eras. The severe damage caused to the bow of the Stockholm was not caused by a collision with an object at 18 or 20 knots.

Here is the quote:
"As the two ships approached each other, at a combined speed of 40 knots (74 km/h), each was aware of the presence of another ship but was guided only by radar; they apparently misinterpreted each others' courses. There was no radio communication between the two ships."

The Stockholm still sails today as the Valtur Prima.

Again, these are all just theories. We all know what happened.

Thanks for the link to your post, it got me thinking.

Seaton

[RMS Gigantic]

Why Smith? He never had a collision in 40 years! He wasn't even awake when the berg was hit! He was doing exactly as he was taught, and that was to stick with the schedule.

To slow down and potentially arrive late would be odd at that time. The rule to slow down in case of ice was not in place until after Titanic sank.

If you are going to blame the bridge, blame Murdoch, but what happens happans, so I blame nothing but the berg.

[Agent|Austin]

I believe that the titanic could have kept sailing, but the ice punctured both hulls and ripped it off of the steel ribbing. (I think I have no proof but I have heard)

Most of the damage is usually under the water line anyway..

[mvsmith]

I believe that the titanic could have kept sailing, but the ice punctured both hulls and ripped it off of the steel ribbing. (I think I have no proof but I have heard)

Where did you get that nonsense? Titanic was not double-hulled. The two sections of double-bottom that separated on either side of the crack landed upside down and could be inspected for damage. There was none.
The ship hit the berg just below the waterline. Plates were bent, rivets were popped, and seams were opened. She suffered many small wounds. There was no mythical “long gash sliced through the hull by the iceberg”.

[MMMMMM]

only the bottm hull the hull was double hulled

[Agent|Austin]

Well I know nothing about titanic it was just a guess. 

[mvsmith]

It has been over twenty years since Bob Ballard located the Titanic, video of her became available, and submarine archaeology began. Yet, there is so much myth and misinformation still being thrown about not only on this forum, but in books and on TV.

Speculation and rumors that began in 1912 are still quoted and accepted as gospel long after they have been refuted by knowledge acquired in the past few decades.

Many do not want to believe that Titanic sank because of arrogance on the part of her Captain, and incompetent navigation by her officers. Or that she was constructed of inferior metal held together by rivets of an inferior grade.

Driving that ship at high speed through a known ice field in disregard of at least six ice warnings—only one of which was ever plotted—cannot be excused by saying it was “accepted practice of that time”.

The fact that there was only 40 seconds from the sighting of the berg until impact—during which no action could have saved her—is clear evidence that she was operated in a reckless manner.

[captseaton]

Driving that ship at high speed through a known ice field in disregard of at least six ice warnings—only one of which was ever plotted—cannot be excused by saying it was “accepted practice of that time”.

The fact that there was only 40 seconds from the sighting of the berg until impact—during which no action could have saved her—is clear evidence that she was operated in a reckless manner.

I second this notion.

My quote from above:
"No matter what, I place the blame of the incident, fully, on the bridge. Specifically, Captain Smith. He ignored the ice warnings and sped through the night at full speed while more prudent Captains in the near vicinity were slowing down and using due caution for the situation."

[Agent|Austin]

I second this notion.

My quote from above:
"No matter what, I place the blame of the incident, fully, on the bridge. Specifically, Captain Smith. He ignored the ice warnings and sped through the night at full speed while more prudent Captains in the near vicinity were slowing down and using due caution for the situation."

Captain Smith was sleeping at the time.

[mvsmith]

He was either in his cabin or the chartroom, he was not asleep. Not that it matters, he was in command and ordered that speed. You really ought to learn the facts about Titanic, rather than simply parrot what you “heard”.

[thassos]

Well, I am still going to attemp to.

Well, OK  Have fun but please don't post it - I'd hate to have to sit looking at my screen for two hours while the thing sinks.

[RMS Gigantic]

Since when is following what you were taught arrogance?

Pre-Titanic captains were always taught to keep to the schedule, and not to slow down for anything.

The idea of slowing down for ice was not enforced until after Titanic's sinking.

Also, action WAS taken for the ice, which was turning the course further south by a number of degrees. If you mean they should have known exactly where bergs were, that would be the job of the International Ice Patrol, which, once again, was not founded until after Titanic sank!

And there was NO WAY that the look outs could have seen that berg any sooner, even if they DID have their binoculars! Binoculars are only used AFTER something is sighted, because if used before then they restrict the lookouts' field of vision.

If you just spotted this text, you are 40 seconds away from a collision with this iceberg. This is how invisible that berg was! Tell me if you found this.

[Nathan|C]

Why Smith? He never had a collision in 40 years! He wasn't even awake when the berg was hit! He was doing exactly as he was taught, and that was to stick with the schedule.

To slow down and potentially arrive late would be odd at that time. The rule to slow down in case of ice was not in place until after Titanic sank.

If you are going to blame the bridge, blame Murdoch, but what happens happans, so I blame nothing but the berg.

A Captain is Responsible for the Crew and all Passengers on his vessel...he is responsible for the Speed and Manouvers it makes while travelling. In short, it was Smiths fault, even if he wasn't in control when the Berg was spotted.

[[SJ]Stein]

This Thread is turning into  rather:







Facts.. ppl died, what's to blaim?     luxury.
if it weren't for luxuries, ppl wouldn't die suddenly.



Regards,

Steiny

[mvsmith]

Pre-Titanic captains were always taught to keep to the schedule, and not to slow down for anything.

The idea of slowing down for ice was not enforced until after Titanic's sinking.

Also, action WAS taken for the ice, which was turning the course further south by a number of degrees. If you mean they should have known exactly where bergs were, that would be the job of the International Ice Patrol, which, once again, was not founded until after Titanic sank!

And there was NO WAY that the look outs could have seen that berg any sooner, even if they DID have their binoculars! Binoculars are only used AFTER something is sighted, because if used before then they restrict the lookouts' field of vision.

That first statement is ridiculous. Captains are not “taught” to do reckless or stupid things. He is, or should be, taught to use judgment in situations, not to blindly follow “tradition”.

As for knowing where the ice was, Titanic received many radio reports of ice. If they had been plotted, as a competent officer should have done, he would know that he was entering an ice field.

Your last paragraph stands as an indictment of his poor judgment. By what silly reasoning do you say that not being able to see a berg in time to avoid it is an excuse for running at a speed that makes it impossible to see a berg in time?
You really should make an effort to actually learn something about the Titanic disaster.

[Winnetou]

The captain had the last word on the ship. No matther what the white star line wanted, if the Captain didn't want it, it wouldn't happen. Smith however thought he had time enough to avoid an iceberg when they see one. But the rutther was too small for the size of the ship. the ship couldn't turn fast enough. And besides that, till even today it is extremley rear the way the Titanic hitted the iceberg. They where just not lucky enough.

Slowing down was common in those day's. The carpathia had slowed down, untill the distress call of the Titanic and the californian had even stopped!

The captain knew there was ice ahead. But how many is not certain. Due to the stress of the work on the telegraph officers, many of the ice warnings didn't make it to the bridge.

The lookouts could have seen the icebergs when they had binoculars. They should have had them and they had them on the bridge. The binoculars where hidden in a cabinet. Smith switched some officers and one of those officers, Mr. David Blair (picture beneath), forgot to turn in the key. That is why they hadn't those Binoculars. The key was sold on an oction in 2008.


Mr. David Blair and the key.

By the way. If you want to blame someone you can begin with the builder and work your way trough the whitestar line to the captain. Evreyone could have done something. In my opinion; yes, there has been a lot of mistakes and it cost a lot of lives that could be saved. But it was a series of human error's that let to the event with the main error of thinkin that we can control evreything. And on that last was even the general public responsible. They could have known that there wherent enough lifeboats and they could have taken action. like they later did on the olympic. So please stop about discussing who was to blame and start learning from mistakes made back then. That is the only reason why we should discuss what happend.

[firestar12]

The captain had the last word on the ship. No matther what the white star line wanted, if the Captain didn't want it, it wouldn't happen. Smith however thought he had time enough to avoid an iceberg when they see one. But the rutther was too small for the size of the ship. the ship couldn't turn fast enough. And besides that, till even today it is extremley rear the way the Titanic hitted the iceberg. They where just not lucky enough.

Slowing down was common in those day's. The carpathia had slowed down, untill the distress call of the Titanic and the californian had even stopped!

The captain knew there was ice ahead. But how many is not certain. Due to the stress of the work on the telegraph officers, many of the ice warnings didn't make it to the bridge.

The lookouts could have seen the icebergs when they had binoculars. They should have had them and they had them on the bridge. The binoculars where hidden in a cabinet. Smith switched some officers and one of those officers, Mr. David Blair (picture beneath), forgot to turn in the key. That is why they hadn't those Binoculars. The key was sold on an oction in 2008.


Mr. David Blair and the key.

By the way. If you want to blame someone you can begin with the builder and work your way trough the whitestar line to the captain. Evreyone could have done something. In my opinion; yes, there has been a lot of mistakes and it cost a lot of lives that could be saved. But it was a series of human error's that let to the event with the main error of thinkin that we can control evreything. And on that last was even the general public responsible. They could have known that there wherent enough lifeboats and they could have taken action. like they later did on the olympic. So please stop about discussing who was to blame and start learning from mistakes made back then. That is the only reason why we should discuss what happend.

You can't blame the Captain too much-he was asleep when they hit the berg! And you cant blame one single person either. When a ship sinks, It is not because of one event. It is actually a series of many events that all work together to bring the ship down. Water is very powerful, It weighs 64 lbs per Cubic foot!

[Nathan|C]

"You can't blame the captain he was asleep when they hit the iceberg"

- A Captain takes responsibility for everything that happens on the ship, Conscious or not.

[mvsmith]

Hi Winnetou,
You’ve obviously given more thought and research to this subject than most.
The story of the binoculars is a fascinating one that few seem to have seen. Here is a small amplification from a while back:
http://www.shipsim.com/ShipSimForum/index.php/topic,4859.msg49428.html#msg49428

I’m not sure that having binoculars would have bought them enough time. More important than the size of the rudder was the fact that the steering engine required at least 30 seconds to put the rudder hard over. To complete a port-around would have needed an additional 60 seconds to put the rudder over. Even if the bow missed the berg, the stern would most likely have struck.
Regards,
Marty

Firestar,
It is not true that Captain Smith was asleep. He was in a chartroom just aft of the bridge, and joined the watch officers right after impact.

[Winnetou]

Officially yes, and the captain did take the blame. However. In Holland there is a rule that when you hit a bycicle with a car the car driver is responsible becouse the he is better protected. Now, that does NOT mean that it is always his fault. The Titanic tradegy was NOT pureley the captain's fault and he is therefor not the only one to blame.

[Winnetou]

thnks msvsmith. I agree with you. The benoculars could have save the Titanic. It doesn't mean they would have save the ship if they where availeble for the lookouts.

[RMS Gigantic]

What did I JUST say?

Binoculars were not used until AFTER an object was sighted, as they narrow the field of vision!

Binoculars would be little help in spotting the berg early.